PvP "Blog" is here.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Why should I or would I trouble myself with your insanity? How arrogant and self obsessed are you?

Insane or not, you have already troubled yourself quite a bit. I think it's a bit too late, by now.

Besides, you make it sound like being insane is a bad thing? Seems to do wonders with you, too. =P

[Leonard McCoy]

Insane or not, you have already troubled yourself quite a bit. I think it's a bit too late, by now.

Besides, you make it sound like being insane is a bad thing? Seems to do wonders with you, too. =P

Sadly this is the only sense you make, and just like dealing with a small child (or one with the mentality of a small child) giving you attention and reacting to your bullshit has prolonged this discussion and turned it off topic. You can read that as go fuck yourself I'm done.

Infracted: Please post respectfully

[Frozen Death Knight]

Sadly this is the only sense you make, and just like dealing with a small child (or one with the mentality of a small child) giving you attention and reacting to your bullshit has prolonged this discussion and turned it off topic. You can read that as go fuck yourself I'm done.

You seem to be taking this way too personal, if you ask me. Have a nice day, then.

[Tzalix]

Really, no REALLY?

You just stated your self that something that was meant to be in the finished product was delayed, and as the product was released despite those delays it's...

unfinished:adjective
1. incomplete, uncompleted, half-done, lacking, undone, in the making, imperfect, unfulfilled, unaccomplished

Note the quotation marks around the word "finished" in my post.

[Redblade]

Note the quotation marks around the word "finished" in my post.

Either it's finished or it's not, if you're trying to claim the product still isn't finished then why is it released and not still in beta (and no, patches post finished launch product doesn't make it a perpetual unfinished product), if not then I have no idea what you're assuming is obvious to your fellow reader.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Note the quotation marks around the word "finished" in my post.

If PvP was supposed to be a part of the game and then they scrap the only PvP related thing they have been talking about for the past years as well as giving promises of it being added to the game quite soon, how can it possibly be finished in that regard?

[Tzalix]

Either it's finished or it's not, if you're trying to claim the product still isn't finished then why is it released and not still in beta (and no, patches post finished launch product doesn't make it a perpetual unfinished product), if not then I have no idea what you're assuming is obvious to your fellow reader.

I've never claimed the product isn't finished... It is finished in the sense that it has been released. It's done. Sold. Out. Now wether you consider the game to be "complete" or not without certain delayed features is a matter of opinion. I fail to see how this is not obvious, seeing as how I've explained it at least three times now.

If PvP was supposed to be a part of the game and then they scrap the only PvP related thing they have been talking about for the past years as well as giving promises of it being added to the game quite soon, how can it possibly be finished in that regard?

PvP is supposed to be part of the game, and it will be eventually. They've been working on one PvP feature that didn't turn out as they hoped, thusly they've scrapped that and have gone back to the drawing board.

There are possible definitions of the word finished in this regard.

1. The definite version, which will only apply when they completely stop patching and/or updating the game. It will then be truly finished.
2. The subjective version, which is a matter of opinion on wether you consider the game complete or not.

It seems that many of you are getting these mixed up.

[Redblade]

I've never claimed the product isn't finished... It is finished in the sense that it has been released. It's done. Sold. Out. Now wether you consider the game to be "complete" or not without certain delayed features is a matter of opinion. I fail to see how this is not obvious, seeing as how I've explained it at least three times now.

fin·ished
[fin-isht]
adjective
1. ended or completed.
2. completed or perfected in all details, as a product: to pack and ship finished items.
3. polished to the highest degree of excellence: a dazzling and finished piece of writing.

It's not a matter of opinion.

The fact remains that people pre-ordered it under the pretense of it having team based PvP, something that is yet to be delivered and no delivery date in sight.

[Tzalix]

fin·ished
[fin-isht]
adjective
1. ended or completed.
2. completed or perfected in all details, as a product: to pack and ship finished items.
3. polished to the highest degree of excellence: a dazzling and finished piece of writing.

Yes, you have quoted the definite definition of the word twice now, we get it. When Blizzard is completely done patching the game it will be finished, so that's probably another 10 years you have to wait.

The fact remains that people pre-ordered it under the pretense of it having team based PvP, something that is yet to be delivered and no delivery date in sight.

Then I would tell them to have some bloody patience when ordering stuff from Blizzard, or stop ordering from them completely. This is nothing new, it's how Blizzard have always operated.

[Redblade]

Yes, you have quoted the definite definition of the word twice now, we get it. When Blizzard is completely done patching the game it will be finished, so that's probably another 10 years you have to wait.

So we agree it's not an opinion that it's not complete now?

[Tzalix]

So we agree it's not an opinion that it's not complete now?

That definiton seems highly unnecessary to apply here since it will not apply until all patches are in. By that definition any game that ever has any patches or updates, ever, is not finished until said patches are done. Why exactly do you bring it up?

[Lomak]

Diablo 3 launched an unfinished game much in the same way The WarZ launched as an unfinished game. Quit being argumentative just for the sake of your petty ego. Of all the things to argue for, to argue that Diablo 3 launched in a state that gives the players a quality diablo experience is just ignorance, plain and simple.

Game is unfinished. Even nearly a year after launch it remains in this pathetic state where the dev's are second guessing every move they make, and inevitably just coming to the conclusion that they are not even capable of delivering and dropping w/e feature they were floundering around trying to figure out. From good items, to character customization, to runes, to stats skills, to random generated maps, ect ect. They couldn't figure any of that shit out , so they just left it out. All that's left is this shell of a game that calls itself diablo whose only accomplishment was figuring out how increase profit margins by introducing the AH.

[Redblade]

That definiton seems highly unnecessary to apply here since it will not apply until all patches are in. By that definition any game that ever has any patches or updates, ever, is not finished until said patches are done. Why exactly do you bring it up?

Sigh, you say it's opinion based if it's complete or not, we say it's incomplete as PvP was supposed to be in the original launch, something that you agree with yet claim that it's still only an opinion if the game was complete at launch or not. Something was removed from the product, what you are talking about with post launch patches are additions to the product, there is a difference between the two, something I stated is debatable how they are perceived when it comes to the complete state of the final product, PvP isn't.

Your position keep changing based on what works for your argument all while the fact remains that something was removed from the product while it was launched anyway, much like if you where designing a new car and held back the engine because it wasn't to your liking to claim it's still a complete car.

[Tzalix]

Sigh, you say it's opinion based if it's complete or not, we say it's incomplete as PvP was supposed to be in the original launch, something that you agree with yet claim that it's still only an opinion if the game was complete at launch or not. Something was removed from the product, what you are talking about with post launch patches are additions to the product, there is a difference between the two, something I stated is debatable how they are perceived when it comes to the complete state of the final product, PvP isn't.

Your position keep changing based on what works for your argument all while the fact remains that something was removed from the product while it was launched anyway, much like if you where designing a new car and held back the engine because it wasn't to your liking to claim it's still a complete car.

I agree on PvP being delayed, because that's what happened. Even if PvP was in the game now, wether the game is complete or not is still an opinion. Oh, and nothing has been removed, stop speaking lies. PvP was never implemented. PvP was originally supposed to be in the game at launch, but it got delayed and will now be implemented through patching. However, it would not matter if the game launched with PvP or not, the game being finished as in the subjective version of the word meaning that the game offers a complete gaming experience will always remain subjective, it is not a fact. This is the last time I will state this.

[Redblade]

I agree on PvP being delayed, because that's what happened. Even if PvP was in the game now, wether the game is complete or not is still an opinion. Oh, and nothing has been removed, stop speaking lies. PvP was never implemented. PvP was originally supposed to be in the game at launch, but it got delayed and will now be implemented through patching. However, it would not matter if the game launched with PvP or not, the game being finished as in the subjective version of the word meaning that the game offers a complete gaming experience will always remain subjective, it is not a fact. This is the last time I will state this.

If it wasn't removed it would have been in the game as all evidence points to that as there isn't a single suggestion it wouldn't, to the contrary there a loads of PvP questions answered and the playable version of it was showcased. As far as "it wasn't implemented, we covered this, as far as the public was aware nothing beyond the Skeleton King was implemented so it's not really an argument, if they had made generalizing statements regarding PvP's inclusion at launch I'd agree but they didn't.

I suppose you would consider a car without an engine complete as well then, I mean it must be as subjective if you should be able to drive the car, it's still a complete besides the engine, you can sit in it and everything works besides that one part.

[Leonard McCoy]

Sigh, you say it's opinion based if it's complete or not, we say it's incomplete as PvP was supposed to be in the original launch, something that you agree with yet claim that it's still only an opinion if the game was complete at launch or not. Something was removed from the product, what you are talking about with post launch patches are additions to the product, there is a difference between the two, something I stated is debatable how they are perceived when it comes to the complete state of the final product, PvP isn't.

Your position keep changing based on what works for your argument all while the fact remains that something was removed from the product while it was launched anyway, much like if you where designing a new car and held back the engine because it wasn't to your liking to claim it's still a complete car.

I just want to emphasize this part. THE FACT. Not THE OPINION but THE FACT. Yes FACT. Like the Sun being one AU in distance. Like Gravity. Like Oxygen. Like Diablo 3 being unfinished. ALL FACTS.

[yasiru]

My question is, do we really need 18 pages to argue about whether a game is finished or not?

[Kelimbror]

I agree on PvP being delayed, because that's what happened. Even if PvP was in the game now, wether the game is complete or not is still an opinion. Oh, and nothing has been removed, stop speaking lies. PvP was never implemented.

wouldn't waste your time honestly, alyssa is normally pretty rational, but PvP really bothers him so much that he can't be objective about the issue...and I totally understand. If there was something I was that angry about, I'd probably have the same strong opinion.

I've already explained how no game is truly finished anymore...how content patches, bug fixes, new ideas come up constantly. Whether it's DLC, or straight patches, MMO's aren't the only games that constantly change.

That's pretty much the only fact that has been spoken regarding the subject, no matter how much Tommy wants to claim that anything he agrees with is a fact.

[Redblade]

I've already explained how no game is truly finished anymore...how content patches, bug fixes, new ideas come up constantly. Whether it's DLC, or straight patches, MMO's aren't the only games that constantly change.

And I don't disagree with this, the concept of an ever evolving game is just fine but it differs from something removed from the original packaging, this is where the disagreement comes. By removing a part of the original product, the way it was portrayed before launch, you effectively release an incomplete product, calling it an opinion whether it's complete or incomplete at that point is simply not true, something is missing and needs to be put back before the game can be considered a complete ever evolving game.

[Kelimbror]

And I don't disagree with this, the concept of an ever evolving game is just fine but it differs from something removed from the original packaging, this is where the disagreement comes. By removing a part of the original product, the way it was portrayed before launch, you effectively release an incomplete product, calling it an opinion whether it's complete or incomplete at that point is simply not true.

People are born with 3 nipples all the time. I only have 2. Am I now incomplete, because I am lacking something that I could have?

To use a more apt metaphor. If you order a pizza with 5 toppings, but you get it and it only has 4 of them, it's not an incomplete pizza. It's just not the pizza you wanted/they told you that you would get. That's not the definition of incomplete. You have a 'finished' product. It just doesn't meet your expectations or standards.

In the same way a game that lacks a feature is actually complete, just not to your liking. This is why it is an opinion.

The pizza is still cooked. This is what it takes to complete the pizza. It was dough, sauce, cheese, and some toppings...just not all the toppings you wanted. If you had received a partially cooked pizza with unmelted cheese, then it would be incomplete.

Diablo can be beaten. All of the system present can be experienced. The game is 'finished'. It's just not what they said you would get.