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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    And I don't disagree with this, the concept of an ever evolving game is just fine but it differs from something removed from the original packaging, this is where the disagreement comes. By removing a part of the original product, the way it was portrayed before launch, you effectively release an incomplete product, calling it an opinion whether it's complete or incomplete at that point is simply not true, something is missing and needs to be put back before the game can be considered a complete ever evolving game.
    There is difference between finished and complete. Complete = no part is missing. Finished = all the polishing is done. D3 will probably never be finished, but it can be made complete ... that will happen once all the announced features will be in the game.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    I agree on PvP being delayed, because that's what happened. Even if PvP was in the game now, wether the game is complete or not is still an opinion. Oh, and nothing has been removed, stop speaking lies. PvP was never implemented. PvP was originally supposed to be in the game at launch, but it got delayed and will now be implemented through patching. However, it would not matter if the game launched with PvP or not, the game being finished as in the subjective version of the word meaning that the game offers a complete gaming experience will always remain subjective, it is not a fact. This is the last time I will state this.
    If there were countless promises on there being PvP in the game and more than half a year later we still don't see any major PvP feature being added, then it simply can not be considered finished (or "complete" would be a better term) by any stretch of the imagination. There are many who would not even consider it being a part of the game unless it was already in the game at launch, so how can this possibly make any sense for anyone else who can be pretty patient when Blizzard said that TDM would be released not far from launch?

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    People are born with 3 nipples all the time. I only have 2. Am I now incomplete, because I am lacking something that I could have?
    But you where never meant to have three.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    To use a more apt metaphor. If you order a pizza with 5 toppings, but you get it and it only has 4 of them, it's not an incomplete pizza. It's just not the pizza you wanted/they told you that you would get. That's not the definition of incomplete. You have a 'finished' product. It just doesn't meet your expectations or standards.
    It is incomplete as it's not the pizza you ordered, the fact that there are other pizzas has nothing to do with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    In the same way a game that lacks a feature is actually complete, just not to your liking. This is why it is an opinion.
    No it's not, it's missing a component and as such is incomplete, if Blizzard had said during all them Q&A's over the years that it's only a feature that might be in the game at launch and never showcased the playable version of it then I'd have no issue with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    The pizza is still cooked. This is what it takes to complete the pizza. It was dough, sauce, cheese, and some toppings...just not all the toppings you wanted. If you had received a partially cooked pizza with unmelted cheese, then it would be incomplete.
    So you would call a car without engine, a house without windows and so on complete, I mean it's still a car and a house, just missing a piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Diablo can be beaten. All of the system present can be experienced. The game is 'finished'. It's just not what they said you would get.
    Same goes for the car and house, it's till a car and a house, just not what you where supposed to get, you can still use them, just not the way the manufacturer/builder said you would.


    There is a difference between the ever evolving content and a missing component that was supposed to be in the game when it was launched, would we disagree if they didn't include elite packs in act 3&4 but had PvP, or perhaps no act 3 or 4 at all, I mean the game would still be playable, right?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 10:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    There is difference between finished and complete. Complete = no part is missing. Finished = all the polishing is done. D3 will probably never be finished, but it can be made complete ... that will happen once all the announced features will be in the game.
    That's a better way to define it perhaps, it's kinda what I been meaning to say I suppose but chose words poorly.
    Last edited by Redblade; 2013-01-09 at 09:42 PM.
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  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    So you would call a car without engine, a house without windows and so on complete, I mean it's still a car and a house, just missing a piece.
    Ah, but here is where the distinction comes in that shows PvP is an opinionated issue.

    A car engine is integral for it to work with an intended purpose, which is to drive it. Of course it isn't complete or finished if they left out the engine. Unfortunately for you, Diablo 3 does work as intended without PvP. If it was a PvP ARPG, instead of a loot progression PvE RPG, then you would have had a strong case.

    A house without windows or a door follows the same principle. A house is shelter. A functioning shelter prevents things from getting to you. Obviously without windows that has not been completed or finished.

    I'm not trying to patronize you, because there's a chance you just picked bad examples, but your metaphor is only reinforcing my stance.

    The caveat of course being that dominant historical and social perceptions (opinions) wind up creating the use of an object. Likewise, intended design can do the same. Of course we could be ridiculous and say a house and car have other purposes that can be accomplished without engines and windows, but you have enough common sense to know that argument doesn't hold up here.

    The overall design of the game and a pretty large perception is that ARPG's are ARPG's whether they have PvP or not. I know you would agree on that fact, because your specific claim here is that what they said isn't what you got. Which I admit, is not good, but doesn't make what you have any less 'finished'. This is why I used a cooking metaphor.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    A car engine is integral for it to work with an intended purpose, which is to drive it. Of course it isn't complete or finished if they left out the engine. Unfortunately for you, Diablo 3 does work as intended without PvP. If it was a PvP ARPG, instead of a loot progression PvE RPG, then you would have had a strong case.
    It doesn't work as intended, it was intended to have PvP hence for anyone expecting PvP the game is simply incomplete, that you or anyone else don't care about it's existence doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    A house without windows or a door follows the same principle. A house is shelter. A functioning shelter prevents things from getting to you. Obviously without windows that has not been completed or finished.
    It's still a house, highly functional as long as you don't want it to keep heat in or wind/rain out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I'm not trying to patronize you, because there's a chance you just picked bad examples, but your metaphor is only reinforcing my stance.
    I'm not though, you apply your definition on those items based on what you think they should be able to perform for you, same as the PvP oriented Diablo players do when it comes to PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    The caveat of course being that dominant historical and social perceptions (opinions) wind up creating the use of an object. Likewise, intended design can do the same. Of course we could be ridiculous and say a house and car have other purposes that can be accomplished without engines and windows, but you have enough common sense to know that argument doesn't hold up here.
    Why, a house works just fine without windows in some places, a car without engine has limited uses I agree so lets remove the doors instead and it works just fine, you would still not call it a complete car, hell I could remove as little as a bumper and you wouldn't class it as complete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    The overall design of the game and a pretty large perception is that ARPG's are ARPG's whether they have PvP or not. I know you would agree on that fact, because your specific claim here is that what they said isn't what you got. Which I admit, is not good, but doesn't make what you have any less 'finished'. This is why I used a cooking metaphor.
    Not getting what's advertised (when just one piece is removed that can be put back) is getting something incomplete, no matter what it is, it's not the full product.
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  6. #366
    Alyssa...

    You played D3 for a thousand hours. Grtz for your Paragon lvl 100 btw ...

    That practically means 4 hours a day, every day...

    The game was very much complete or you wouldn't have put a 1000 hours of your life into it...

    You do realise we only have around 2500-3000 active weeks in our lives ?

    Stop playing the word game and stop hurting my and your intelligence.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2013-01-09 at 11:16 PM.

  7. #367
    Scarab Lord Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    I think the issue could be phrased in another way than examples, since there is not always a compatible example that works perfectly with what one wishes to describe.

    The main problem, as I see it, is not that PvP was not added yet. However, when you get years of previews of PvP, tons of information on how it will work, promises that it will be a part of the game at launch, then gets delayed saying that it soon will be released, and finally, more than half a year later, we now know that it will not be added, it would be a complete surprise if no one got disappointed.

    For anyone who mainly wanted to PvP and play TDM as well as people wishing to do something different in the game who would like to try it out, this would be nothing else than a huge, huge disappointment. It simply would be better that they released TDM instead of scrapping years of development time in one go, which could have been used elsewhere. Just imagining how much wasted resources that must have gone into designing it makes me die a little inside.

    Heh, die.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Alyssa...

    You played D3 for a thousand hours. Grtz for your Paragon lvl 100 btw ...

    That practically means 4 hours a day, every day...

    The game was very much complete or you wouldn't have put a 1000 hours of your life into it...

    You do realise we only have around 2500-3000 active weeks in our lives ?

    Stop playing the word game and stop hurting my and your intelligence.
    It's about the game, not some petty insults that you want to throw at the individuals who happen to criticize said game.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    It's still a house, highly functional as long as you don't want it to keep heat in or wind/rain out.
    Or knife wielding murderers.

    I'm not the one who is applying my definition to the genre. The genre is already defined. It's an ARPG...it doesn't have to have PvP regardless of how they say it.

    It's really as simple as saying: Neither one of us will budge, we both present metaphors, 'factual' information, yet we still share the same beliefs. Since the item in question is a philosophical argument, neither of us can be right. This means by nature that this is opinionated. It doesn't make your opinion wrong, or mine wrong, but it can't be stated as a definitive or as factual information like you (possibly..it's been a long thread) and definitely others claim it to be.

    No amount of passion or displeasure with the situation can change that.

    I think you can probably respectfully agree on that much, which means we have found ourselves arguing semantics in the end. I will try to remember this, even if there's some juicy tidbits that try to lure me back in. We have Tommys on one side and Benbos on the other making everything look stupid. We should probably put our intellect to better use.

  10. #370
    IMO, game is neither complete or unfinished - its just a half-assed product.

  11. #371
    The only reason I could think of why it was taking them so long to incorporate dueling is balancing issues. A well geared lvl 60 can easily one shot another player with the right equipment. Only reason I could think of


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  12. #372
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  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by yack346 View Post
    The only reason I could think of why it was taking them so long to incorporate dueling is balancing issues. A well geared lvl 60 can easily one shot another player with the right equipment. Only reason I could think of
    Diablo dueling was never about balance but about fun, they should keep their balance obsession away from diablo imo, its all about fun!

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    We should probably put our intellect to better use.
    Mehh got to pass time in some way, besides I'm currently listening to Malcolm Gladwell's books which stimulates the intellect more than enough to compensate. :P
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  15. #375
    Herald of the Titans Tzalix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    I suppose you would consider a car without an engine complete as well then, I mean it must be as subjective if you should be able to drive the car, it's still a complete besides the engine, you can sit in it and everything works besides that one part.
    No... The engine is a non-optional part of the car. It's what makes it work. PvP is an optional part of Diablo, it is not necessary for the game to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    wouldn't waste your time honestly, alyssa is normally pretty rational, but PvP really bothers him so much that he can't be objective about the issue...and I totally understand. If there was something I was that angry about, I'd probably have the same strong opinion.
    I can see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    If there were countless promises on there being PvP in the game and more than half a year later we still don't see any major PvP feature being added, then it simply can not be considered finished (or "complete" would be a better term) by any stretch of the imagination. There are many who would not even consider it being a part of the game unless it was already in the game at launch, so how can this possibly make any sense for anyone else who can be pretty patient when Blizzard said that TDM would be released not far from launch?
    There were no promises about when it would be in the game. There never is with Blizzard. There were promises that there would be PvP in the game, and there will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    But you where never meant to have three.
    How do you know? Have you had a chat with the developers of the human body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    It is incomplete as it's not the pizza you ordered, the fact that there are other pizzas has nothing to do with this.
    You are very picky, aren't you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    No it's not, it's missing a component and as such is incomplete, if Blizzard had said during all them Q&A's over the years that it's only a feature that might be in the game at launch and never showcased the playable version of it then I'd have no issue with it.
    No, it's an optional component. A side feature that some would consider necessary, others wouldn't. It's subjective. Showing something to us does not make it a promise, especially when we're talking about Blizzard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    So you would call a car without engine, a house without windows and so on complete, I mean it's still a car and a house, just missing a piece.
    I wouldn't call a car without engine complete, because it's a necessary component. I would call a house without windows complete because it's an optional feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Same goes for the car and house, it's till a car and a house, just not what you where supposed to get, you can still use them, just not the way the manufacturer/builder said you would.
    The house would still be fully functional. The car wouldn't, as it's missing part of it's core.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    There is a difference between the ever evolving content and a missing component that was supposed to be in the game when it was launched, would we disagree if they didn't include elite packs in act 3&4 but had PvP, or perhaps no act 3 or 4 at all, I mean the game would still be playable, right?
    Act 3 and 4 are parts of the core of the game. PvP is not.
    I offend people. And no, I'm not talking about you.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    No... The engine is a non-optional part of the car. It's what makes it work. PvP is an optional part of Diablo, it is not necessary for the game to work.
    We already covered this by removing the doors instead, or even something as small as one of the bumpers, something you don't necessarily need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    There were no promises about when it would be in the game. There never is with Blizzard. There were promises that there would be PvP in the game, and there will be.
    That's a horrible argument and you know it, at least I hope you are intelligent enough to realize that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    How do you know? Have you had a chat with the developers of the human body?
    I'd say medical science is enough evidence of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    You are very picky, aren't you...
    If I order X I expect to get X, not a variation of X that really is Y, simple as that, I assume that in reality you and most people are just the same when it comes to most things that isn't influenced by your hunger and willingness to accept the deviation over the hassle of correcting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    No, it's an optional component. A side feature that some would consider necessary, others wouldn't. It's subjective. Showing something to us does not make it a promise, especially when we're talking about Blizzard.
    To you it's an optional component, to others it's not, to them in fact it's an integral part of the game and the rest is optional or just a means to an end, the fact that they answered loads of questions regarding how PvP would be in the game and then proceeding to showcase the playable version of what they had talked about is enough, not once where I could find was there a implication that it wouldn't be available at launch besides the announcement that it was pulled from launch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    I would call a house without windows complete because it's an optional feature.
    I'm quite sure you wouldn't if you bought one and had the windows removed between putting in a down payment and moving in, especially not when learning you would get them back in 6-12 months later. The car I already covered above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    Act 3 and 4 are parts of the core of the game. PvP is not.
    To you they are, to some one only wanting to PvP they are not.


    You argue this based on your views and expectations of what the game should be instead of looking at it as any other product where a piece is missing from the complete package, if you feel that the piece is needed or not doesn't matter as looking at the whole it's simply not complete. Now if Blizzard had said during the years of development, interviews, Q&A's and so on that Diablo 3 would be a PvE game only with the possibility of having PvP down the line it would have been different, they didn't though, instead they talked about it using the same language as any other feature you think is vital to the game and it's state of completion.
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  17. #377
    Scarab Lord Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    There were no promises about when it would be in the game. There never is with Blizzard. There were promises that there would be PvP in the game, and there will be.
    Sure, I could give you that it was not an absolute promise.

    However, it still does not change that they said that they had plans to include it in the game for some years now and now we will not even see it released. The whole thing was a waste of time for both the players who waited for it as well as Blizzard, who developed the feature. It was all a huge waste with no results.

    If they never bothered with developing TDM or at least scrapped it earlier, we would have had actual PvP, by now. More waiting and less playing, which is never a good thing.
    Last edited by Frozen Death Knight; 2013-01-10 at 03:43 PM.

  18. #378
    Herald of the Titans Tzalix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    To you they are, to some one only wanting to PvP they are not.
    True. So can we now agree that Diablo 3 being "finished" is an opinion, not a fact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    However, it still does not change that they said that they had plans to include it in the game for some years now and now we will not even see it released.
    But we will see PvP released? They're redoing it because it didn't work out how they wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    The whole thing was a waste of time for both the players who waited for it as well as Blizzard, who developed the feature. It was all a huge waste with no results.
    Nobody could foresee it and Blizzard are not to blame for it. It was a huge waste, but that's something that happens all the time in game development. I bet they spend at least half of their time working on stuff that will never see the light of day. I bet it had results, you can't learn without making mistakes. Now they know what doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    If they never bothered with developing TDM or at least scrapped it earlier, we would have had actual PvP, by now. More waiting and less playing, which is never a good thing.
    I'm sure they're thinking the same thing. It's easy to be wise in hindsight.
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  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post

    Nobody could foresee it and Blizzard are not to blame for it. .
    Blizzard is the luckiest company in the universe. They have so many people who swallow such tripe and believe it to.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzalix View Post
    True. So can we now agree that Diablo 3 being "finished" is an opinion, not a fact?



    But we will see PvP released? They're redoing it because it didn't work out how they wanted.



    Nobody could foresee it and Blizzard are not to blame for it. It was a huge waste, but that's something that happens all the time in game development. I bet they spend at least half of their time working on stuff that will never see the light of day. I bet it had results, you can't learn without making mistakes. Now they know what doesn't work.



    I'm sure they're thinking the same thing. It's easy to be wise in hindsight.
    Wether or not you, or anybody else likes or dislikes a part of the game has no bearing on if it's a fact or not.
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