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  1. #21
    That would make sense as a retort out of context, in context ZomgDPS said "this would have PvP implications" and your excuse for not even trying to come up with a solution for this was "I don't give a fuck about PvP".
    We are having a discussion with you, the fact that you are now throwing around irrelevant accusations about people's emotional state and declaring your intention to spout memes instead of contribute yourself implies to me that you weren't actually prepared for anyone to discuss anything with you at all. If you were ready for that then dissent should have been exactly what you expected, rather than the parade of asspats you were apparently waiting for.

    If everyone agreed with you it wouldn't be a discussion at all.
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-12-27 at 11:00 PM.

  2. #22
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    That would make sense as a retort out of context, in context ZomgDPS said "this would have PvP implications" and your excuse for not trying to come up with a solution for this was "I don't give a fuck about PvP".
    We are having a discussion with you, the fact that you are now throwing around irrelevant accusations about people's emotional state and declaring your intention to spout memes instead of contribute yourself implies to me that you weren't actually prepared for anyone to discuss anything with you at all. If you were ready for that then dissent should have been exactly what you expected, rather than the parade of asspats you were apparently waiting for.
    Then pardon me for not clarifying. It was an admission of inexpertise as regards pvp because I do not, as I said, give a fuck about it.

    Did you have anything else to say, besides speculating about my expectations?
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  3. #23
    Its the new year almost dudelettes, lets stop beating up on Didactic.

    Basically Didactic they are saying that you need to consider the entire scope of the game when you think of changes. Its tough, sure, but that's the point.


    True, while some of Didactic's suggestions seem a bit 'dreamy', we can still squeeze out some nuggets of truth from them.


    To start with, I always find it best to sometimes use the top-down approach. Start with the big, hot-topic items then work your way down.

    E.g. just from Didactic's list we can see there are a few big topic items for each of the specs, e.g. Fire's RNG issues. Frost's reliance on simultaneous control and damage, Arcane's ramping and AM derpiness, etc etc

    We can then take these high level issues and dig into them further. Perhaps even questioning the assumptions e.g. "Is it even a bad thing that Frost is a spec where control and damage go hand in hand?" or "Is the fact that Fire is RNG-y inherently a bad thing?"
    From there we can build further, looking at more and more details.


    So yea.. I think the point is we need a place to brainstorm hardcore. Maybe this is the thread, maybe not. Either way, I think it was Shangy that said in the other thread that we should wait for 5.2 to get PTRed and then we can collect feedback and post it on the official forums.

    To make that process useful, we need a method for analysis. Logix is coming to help us with that (I hope)
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  4. #24
    lol ice barrier baseline, evocation 30% hp every 45 seconds....wow thats like make mages even more of a bastard in pvp.

    but as many have said if u dont care about PvP then your opinions/solutions/changes are pointess, because blizzard doesn't get this choice, believe it or not they are TRYING to balance specs for pvp and pve, it may seem like they dont try, but if we took these kind of changes pvp would be 5 times worse, no point adding fuel to a fire.

  5. #25
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Basically Didactic they are saying that you need to consider the entire scope of the game when you think of changes. Its tough, sure, but that's the point.

    True, while some of Didactic's suggestions seem a bit 'dreamy', we can still squeeze out some nuggets of truth from them.

    To start with, I always find it best to sometimes use the top-down approach. Start with the big, hot-topic items then work your way down.

    E.g. just from Didactic's list we can see there are a few big topic items for each of the specs, e.g. Fire's RNG issues. Frost's reliance on simultaneous control and damage, Arcane's ramping and AM derpiness, etc etc

    We can then take these high level issues and dig into them further. Perhaps even questioning the assumptions e.g. "Is it even a bad thing that Frost is a spec where control and damage go hand in hand?" or "Is the fact that Fire is RNG-y inherently a bad thing?"
    From there we can build further, looking at more and more details.

    So yea.. I think the point is we need a place to brainstorm hardcore. Maybe this is the thread, maybe not. Either way, I think it was Shangy that said in the other thread that we should wait for 5.2 to get PTRed and then we can collect feedback and post it on the official forums.

    To make that process useful, we need a method for analysis. Logix is coming to help us with that (I hope)
    Aren't all user attempts to sway Blizzard dreamy by definition? And I am aware of what they are saying; despite the fact that they are wrong, and myself and the others who contributed to the list that was presented did in fact take PvP into account.

    I believe I said in another thread that probably one of the deeper problems with Mages (and a lot of classes, really) is that they are loaded with (to use ZomgDPS' term)assumptions, spells, and design intents from previous content paradigms; which, naturally, are at odds with the current direction Blizzard seems to be taking us in.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 03:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    lol ice barrier baseline, evocation 30% hp every 45 seconds....wow thats like make mages even more of a bastard in pvp.

    but as many have said if u dont care about PvP then your opinions/solutions/changes are pointess, because blizzard doesn't get this choice, believe it or not they are TRYING to balance specs for pvp and pve, it may seem like they dont try, but if we took these kind of changes pvp would be 5 times worse, no point adding fuel to a fire.
    The Ice Barrier change comes from (I believe) a very well-justified position; PvP or PvE, active mitigation is almost always going to be preferable. The change is intended to a) assist balance because it allows for Blizzard to balance the numbers based on the tools that the average Mage has rather than might pick b) make that particular tier more of a choice, and c) help compensate for lack of mage self healing.

    As for the Evocation thing, while it might seem obscene (and probably is), it remains a channeled spell for which the mage has to be stationary. I.e. very easily interruptable if your opponents have the slightest clue as to what they are doing. Perhaps an out of combat restriction might help.
    Last edited by Didactic; 2012-12-27 at 11:23 PM.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I believe I said in another thread that probably one of the dpperproblems with Mages (and a lot of classes, really) is that they are loaded with (to use ZomgDPS' term)assumptions, spells, and design intents from previous content paradigms; which, naturally, are at odds with the current direction Blizzard seems to be taking us in.
    This is actually very true.

    WoW (heck, MMOs in general) have evolved since Mages were first born.

    Mages (as well as some other classes) are being left behind, design-wise (man you guys should see rogues right now *shudder*). The tough point now is how to evolve the core Mage design (stand and nuke caster, big numbers, good control, slippery mobility etc etc) for the modern era.

    Locks always were the more 'mobile' casters (DoTs inherently being "mobile DPS"), so one solution is to make mages like Locks, but that pushes on the other pressure point, homogenization.


    So yea, I agree. Mages as a design are being left behind in the modern MMO era. But just because their design has not evolved yet doesn't mean that it cannot.

    Who knows? Maybe there is a spot for a more static, stand and nuke caster in today's game. If there is, the mage class will be the best bet at achieving it. I'm not sure, but I think that's Blizz's thinking on the topic too.
    IN fact, I think its an issue they are not being able to solve yet (lack of inspiration/creativity) and they are somewhat confused by the problem (its not an easy one to solve, just think about it for a sec). Which is probably why most of their current changes seem so herptastically random (and its also why they seem much much more prone to listening to one or two loud players where changes are concerned. They think they can placate us by giving us what our 'popular' players want /rollseyes).


    Either way. While I know many MANY of our mage brethren have responded to the miasmic state of the mage class by just /quitting. I for one think this is the time the class needs its players more than ever. We just got to work together and put petty bs aside (and no, no mage union please, kkthxbai)
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  7. #27
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    This is actually very true.

    WoW (heck, MMOs in general) have evolved since Mages were first born.

    Mages (as well as some other classes) are being left behind, design-wise (man you guys should see rogues right now *shudder*). The tough point now is how to evolve the core Mage design (stand and nuke caster, big numbers, good control, slippery mobility etc etc) for the modern era.

    Locks always were the more 'mobile' casters (DoTs inherently being "mobile DPS"), so one solution is to make mages like Locks, but that pushes on the other pressure point, homogenization.

    So yea, I agree. Mages as a design are being left behind in the modern MMO era. But just because their design has not evolved yet doesn't mean that it cannot.

    Who knows? Maybe there is a spot for a more static, stand and nuke caster in today's game. If there is, the mage class will be the best bet at achieving it. I'm not sure, but I think that's Blizz's thinking on the topic too.
    IN fact, I think its an issue they are not being able to solve yet (lack of inspiration/creativity) and they are somewhat confused by the problem (its not an easy one to solve, just think about it for a sec). Which is probably why most of their current changes seem so herptastically random (and its also why they seem much much more prone to listening to one or two loud players where changes are concerned. They think they can placate us by giving us what our 'popular' players want /rollseyes).

    Either way. While I know many MANY of our mage brethren have responded to the miasmic state of the mage class by just /quitting. I for one think this is the time the class needs its players more than ever. We just got to work together and put petty bs aside (and no, no mage union please, kkthxbai)
    I am positive Blizzard had no idea what to do with....Enhancement shamans, for example, up until the spec began to be fleshed out more solidly in Wrath.

    The crazy thing is, I am almost certain the Mage experience would be improved drastically simply by addressing the mobility issue first.

    EDIT: Zomg, mind giving me your feedback on the Level 15 talents?
    Last edited by Didactic; 2012-12-27 at 11:32 PM.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  8. #28
    An interesting side point, which may seem minor at first but may actually end up being a huge thing is the fact that Rob Pardo, the guy who was designer for vanilla wow, as well as the current CEO of Blizz, is actually directly influencing design for the next wow expo.


    This may seem like a minor thing, but if we look at it, there is a metric ton of evidence (both from inferred class changes, as well as blue tweets/posts) that no on on the current design team has a mage as their main. True, the current design team may know the 'facts' about the mage class, the same way I know 'facts' about feral druids e.g. they have a dot called shred which does X zomgdamage. But I don't main a feral druid, so I cannot talk or comment about them as deeply as I can a mage or maybe a lock.

    Pardo is known to main a mage (heck, maybe thats why he chose to come down and design that shit himself?).


    So yea. While MoP may be looking bleaker and bleaker for mages, I think the future may bring some light.

    I have a 100% accuracy rate so far with my predictions btw.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  9. #29
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    An interesting side point, which may seem minor at first but may actually end up being a huge thing is the fact that Rob Pardo, the guy who was designer for vanilla wow, as well as the current CEO of Blizz, is actually directly influencing design for the next wow expo.

    This may seem like a minor thing, but if we look at it, there is a metric ton of evidence (both from inferred class changes, as well as blue tweets/posts) that no on on the current design team has a mage as their main. True, the current design team may know the 'facts' about the mage class, the same way I know 'facts' about feral druids e.g. they have a dot called shred which does X zomgdamage. But I don't main a feral druid, so I cannot talk or comment about them as deeply as I can a mage or maybe a lock.

    Pardo is known to main a mage (heck, maybe thats why he chose to come down and design that shit himself?).

    So yea. While MoP may be looking bleaker and bleaker for mages, I think the future may bring some light.

    I have a 100% accuracy rate so far with my predictions btw.
    Are you trying to imply that the Mage gods have seen the fate of their children, and found their situation wanting?

    Thank god.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    - Counterspell cooldown reduced to 15 seconds, down from 24. School lockout changed to 4 sec to bring it in line with melee interrupts.
    Also make it melee range to actually bring it in line with MELEE interrupts.
    So you want all the pro of melee interrupts without the pitfalls?

  11. #31
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exorte View Post
    Also make it melee range to actually bring it in line with MELEE interrupts.
    So you want all the pro of melee interrupts without the pitfalls?
    Personally? I would just enjoy Counterspell having a lower cooldown, since it makes it more useful in a PvE setting. The lockout increase was suggested by a friend; I can see why, and understand the justification.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  12. #32
    Reducing the CD has huuuuge impacts on PvP which can't be ignored. Being able to interrupt and silence two times instead of once is a gigantic buff. Also, those mobility changes aren't good solutions, I'll address them when I get home and put a thermal pack on my back.

  13. #33
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    As much as I can appreciate all the thoughts and work that got into your post...Mages are fine in my opinion and the list of "proposed" changes is just a "please make me OP again" wishlist

  14. #34
    Most of these changes would break the way the class works entirely in PVP and to some extent in PVE.

    I almost never look at "proposed changes / suggestions for blizzard" threads posted by players because virtually every one is exactly like this. Ill-thought out changes, mostly. Too much noise to find any signal of worth.

  15. #35
    Most of these changes are homogenization to bring mages closer to other classes. I really would prefer to remove homogenization already put in place by blizzard and restore mages to their pre-cata glory; and certainly not homogenize them even further. Truly, what magi need are a return to their roots.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somebodyelse View Post
    As much as I can appreciate all the thoughts and work that got into your post...Mages are fine in my opinion and the list of "proposed" changes is just a "please make me OP again" wishlist
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    Most of these changes would break the way the class works entirely in PVP and to some extent in PVE.

    I almost never look at "proposed changes / suggestions for blizzard" threads posted by players because virtually every one is exactly like this. Ill-thought out changes, mostly. Too much noise to find any signal of worth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    Most of these changes are homogenization to bring mages closer to other classes. I really would prefer to remove homogenization already put in place by blizzard and restore mages to their pre-cata glory; and certainly not homogenize them even further. Truly, what magi need are a return to their roots.
    If you have better ideas, go ahead and present them.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    This right here is the exact reason you SHOULDN'T be making balancing decisions or suggesting changes. As rare as this is, I agree with zomgDPS for the most part. Your changes are not good changes for mid-expansion, as they basically require an entire overhaul of the class. Secondly, your changes are either pointless (removing Mana Gem and making it Arcane only), broken buffs (your entire Arcane suggestion), or just horrid nerfs (your entire Frost).

    You can't simply say patch notes are horrid then propose sweeping classes changes with a "fuck you" mentality towards half the game. I'm sorry, but unless this is a super rough first brainstorm (not even a draft), I would not be able to agree with anything you've put to keyboard here.
    Damn, Swizzle, for a Moderator, that comes off quite harsh o_O; (Sorry I'm late, everyone! AT&T was setting up our new internet)

    It's not like these are going to be sudden changes that come out of nowhere, but... damn. That just seems a bit rude.

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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Damn, Swizzle, for a Moderator, that comes off quite harsh o_O; (Sorry I'm late, everyone! AT&T was setting up our new internet)

    It's not like these are going to be sudden changes that come out of nowhere, but... damn. That just seems a bit rude.
    I'm a bit grumpy since I've had terrible knee pain the past two days and today my lower back started acting up making me unable to lift (which sucks soooo much). The thing is, there are different approaches you can take to drive a point home. I can either be polite and coddle the poster if its something minor or I may have to break out the old Swizzle Reality Stick (patent pending) and just be upfront.

    While I think it's fun, and often times helpful, for players to design changes, this is not the time for changes like these. When I did something similar, it was after MoP had been announced and I put together a list of changes I would like to see for this expansion. Two of those changes went into the game (Ignite becoming a Mastery and Frozen Orb behaving how it does), but it took a lot of feedback to get there and it took a whole LOT of consideration for math and game mechanics outside of making Mages super fun awesome powerful easy playful what have you.

    Lastly, Didactic, this is YOUR thread. It is not the job of posters in YOUR thread to come up with ideas, we are here to critique what you have presented. That's the risk you take when you put your name to proposed changes. I do not have to be a super smart economist to be able to tell you that the idea of investing all your funds into an Afghani boat business is a stupid idea.

  19. #39
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    Lastly, Didactic, this is YOUR thread. It is not the job of posters in YOUR thread to come up with ideas, we are here to critique what you have presented. That's the risk you take when you put your name to proposed changes. I do not have to be a super smart economist to be able to tell you that the idea of investing all your funds into an Afghani boat business is a stupid idea.
    Perhaps you should go take some ibuprofen and go to bed.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  20. #40
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    I'm a bit grumpy since I've had terrible knee pain the past two days and today my lower back started acting up making me unable to lift (which sucks soooo much). The thing is, there are different approaches you can take to drive a point home. I can either be polite and coddle the poster if its something minor or I may have to break out the old Swizzle Reality Stick (patent pending) and just be upfront.

    While I think it's fun, and often times helpful, for players to design changes, this is not the time for changes like these. When I did something similar, it was after MoP had been announced and I put together a list of changes I would like to see for this expansion. Two of those changes went into the game (Ignite becoming a Mastery and Frozen Orb behaving how it does), but it took a lot of feedback to get there and it took a whole LOT of consideration for math and game mechanics outside of making Mages super fun awesome powerful easy playful what have you.

    Lastly, Didactic, this is YOUR thread. It is not the job of posters in YOUR thread to come up with ideas, we are here to critique what you have presented. That's the risk you take when you put your name to proposed changes. I do not have to be a super smart economist to be able to tell you that the idea of investing all your funds into an Afghani boat business is a stupid idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Perhaps you should go take some ibuprofen and go to bed.
    So... Um...

    Enjoy your thread guys. *Abandons ship!*

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