A Compilation of Proposed Changes

[Deleted]

In fact, it's know since the MOP-Beta that Fire will scale very better that Frost and Arcane with Gear. It's only because of the Crit importance.
And this is why they change the factor from 1.5 to 1.3, and they will change it to compensate it.

[jtmzac]

If you want to bring Fire on the same level as Frost, you have to nerf Fire more! I read in so many threads "frost and arcane" are super strong, but that is not true! Frost is still the weakest of the three.

Frost just needs to be made the best spec for a little while so more people can have a go at it and realise its quite good. It's dissapointing how few frost mages seem to be around.

[Deleted]

-snip-

Point taken, but if we assume that good players won't let DoTs drop off (even to re-cast Rune) and will be DPSing as much as they can barring boss mechanics which prevent it (ie boss isn't targetable), buff uptime can be very close to DPS uptime. As I said, point taken. I think I misunderstood.

Imho, a temporary buff that keeps refreshing as long as you are in your rune. The buff clears snares and makes you immune to them, and increases your runspeed by 35%. buff lasts 3 seconds.

Snare immunity might be a bit much; maybe reduced snare duration by X% though.

If you want to bring Fire on the same level as Frost, you have to nerf Fire more! I read in so many threads "frost and arcane" are super strong, but that is not true! Frost is still the weakest of the three.

In single target damage, currently Frost is ahead of Fire. The problem is that this tier there is a LOT of cleave/multi-dot fights, and sadly Fire just has better cleave and better multi-dot through easy cleaving.

[Deleted]

Blade Lord 25m hc, median, last 14 days

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade...00000000000000

Feng 25m hc, median, last 14 days

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_...00000000000000

Some people would argue "top 100 fire are better mages than top 100 frost" Maybe, but if the same 100 mages would play all 3 specs with the same gear, the gap would be closer, but still significant.

I agree with you, that cleave and multi-dot are very good for fire, but I still think, fire has a higher output potential than frost (arcane is still ridiculous in his own world, compared to the other two) - even in single target situations.

I still play frost and enjoy it more than the other two, but it´s low output spoils my fun : /

[Methusula]

Blade Lord 25m hc, median, last 14 days

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade...00000000000000

Feng 25m hc, median, last 14 days

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_...00000000000000

Some people would argue "top 100 fire are better mages than top 100 frost" Maybe, but if the same 100 mages would play all 3 specs with the same gear, the gap would be closer, but still significant.

I agree with you, that cleave and multi-dot are very good for fire, but I still think, fire has a higher output potential than frost (arcane is still ridiculous in his own world, compared to the other two) - even in single target situations.

I still play frost and enjoy it more than the other two, but it´s low output spoils my fun : /

Gah, I don't understand why people insist on using top 100 parses. Is it only because it better illustrates your point? There are too many factors other than the actual dps those specs are capable of, to make this data anywhere near useful. This just shows the luckiest, best at cheesing mechanics parses. Look at the dps for all parses, where rng will average out and the data is far more reliable. Oh look, fire is last. http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade...00000000000000 .
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_...00000000000000

[Deleted]

Well, I compared the luckiest/best 100 vs 100, you compare 823 vs 124 resp. 894 vs 160.

Using overall dps still shows fire way ahead of frost

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00000000000000

but it compares 7580 fire parses with 1349 frost parses and fire on par with arcane o_O

[zeNNoN]

...

Level 90

EDIT: Scrapped, working on them again. Feel free to make suggestions.

This +1. With other things they can do what ever they want. If they scrap lvl 90 tier, I'll resub.

[Elegiac]

Gah, I don't understand why people insist on using top 100 parses. Is it only because it better illustrates your point? There are too many factors other than the actual dps those specs are capable of, to make this data anywhere near useful. This just shows the luckiest, best at cheesing mechanics parses. Look at the dps for all parses, where rng will average out and the data is far more reliable. Oh look, fire is last. http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade...00000000000000 .
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Feng_...00000000000000

Furthermore, as I said earlier the fact that dps remains competitive for some specs masks the very real quality of life issue and mechanical failures that mages have.

[Decimation2g]

While we are reworking the entire mage class why not make a 4th spec that shoots turds, blizz?

[zomgDPS]

Funnily enough, if they ever do decide to add more 4th specs (very unlikely), I'm pretty sure the current 'pure' classes will get em first.

Locks will probably get a tank spec, Hunters too.
Mages will get a heal spec (Chronomancy - healing through time manipulation) and rogues will probably get both (Avoidance tanking and 'poison' healing - they should prob roll sub into assassination at this point imho).

They could probably have a cool healing style with mages and time. Perhaps 'undoing' damage by reverting time? Like building on the temporal shield idea. Who knows?


Temporal Shield still sucks for anything other than cheesing only very specific boss mechanics though. It needs a buff (esp in pvp).

[mrgreenthump]

Funnily enough, if they ever do decide to add more 4th specs (very unlikely), I'm pretty sure the current 'pure' classes will get em first.

Locks will probably get a tank spec, Hunters too.
Mages will get a heal spec (Chronomancy - healing through time manipulation) and rogues will probably get both (Avoidance tanking and 'poison' healing - they should prob roll sub into assassination at this point imho).

They could probably have a cool healing style with mages and time. Perhaps 'undoing' damage by reverting time? Like building on the temporal shield idea. Who knows?


Temporal Shield still sucks for anything other than cheesing only very specific boss mechanics though. It needs a buff (esp in pvp).

I want my Battle Mage!

On the Temporal shield though, the heal is just too long.. and the time you can get hit is prolly a sec or two too short. I mean lets take your average raid wide aoe, its rare that 1-2 ticks will pass the ammount of absorb that 1 Ice barrier can do, Now ofc there are fights that have redic aoe bursts, but even then they can mostly be migitated by cooldowns and they wont hit that hard, making ice barrier better choice again..

And now that we got to the Tier 2 talents.. Blazing speed doesnt belong to that tier, it would rather be at home in tier 1 replacing scorch or PoM and make either baseline for all mages.

[Sw1tch]

I feel as if I'm the only one who enjoys Temporal Shield. Virtually every raid wide AoE in the current tier does more then 75-80K damage, making temporal shield better then ice barrier. The only part about it that sucks is sometimes it just doesn't heal you. Plenty of time during elegon i've popped it before annihilation, to get no health back. Other instances as well.

Worth noting the main reason i enjoy it is due to the lack of GCD. No dps lost.

[Deleted]

I feel as if I'm the only one who enjoys Temporal Shield. Virtually every raid wide AoE in the current tier does more then 75-80K damage, making temporal shield better then ice barrier. The only part about it that sucks is sometimes it just doesn't heal you. Plenty of time during elegon i've popped it before annihilation, to get no health back. Other instances as well.

Worth noting the main reason i enjoy it is due to the lack of GCD. No dps lost.

I feel the same, honestly. It's helped healers a lot during progression knowing that I'm using it for big spurts of damage - HC Blade Lord for example. It's much better for big bursts of damage rather than sustained which is slightly frustrating but oh well. Lack of GCD and larger potential damage "absorption" makes TS the winner for me.

[jtmzac]

I feel the same, honestly. It's helped healers a lot during progression knowing that I'm using it for big spurts of damage - HC Blade Lord for example. It's much better for big bursts of damage rather than sustained which is slightly frustrating but oh well. Lack of GCD and larger potential damage "absorption" makes TS the winner for me.

I prefer it over Ice Barrier as well. It's great for just ignoring mechanics in lfr and for several fights in normal it's kept me alive and greatly helped our healers e.g. wind lord's rain of blades and I used it quite successfully today for the second hit of dread spray when as we downed normal sha for the first time.

I just get sick of swapping to Ice Barrier all the time since it's far better when soloing and doing dailies.

[Deleted]

Hi guys,
just some random thoughts to some topics:

lvl90-Talents:
As often times said the biggest Problem i see too is that it combines to much. It should be only a dmgincrease and nothing more.
The idea of Blizz is that DPS dont have to worry about mana at all. The idea of arcane is that mana is your mastery. I dont see the point giving the whole class the same manaregfunctions. I would suggest to divide it:
Frost maybe could get mana from the waterelemental, fire could get it from dotticks.
For arcane i could imagine something like the lesser total mana u have the more manareg u get. Combined with a little delay (maybe if ur manapool 5 sec before was lower then now it tooks the lesser value to calculate manareg) u could come back to a real choosing between conserve and burst. If you burst u loose mana very fast but would regain it faster and if u conserve u could stay at the same lvl all the time.
So we dont have mana in the talents. Lets go to moving. Whatever u choose in the first tier (whatever is in the first tier in the future) i think this tier is the heavier reason for standing/moving.
I like the mainidea of rop. The question is: Why not make it like snipertraining? I mean now with no cooldown we could just cast it everytime we move. Move->recast->get the buff. If its automatic it would be: Move->Cast a 2 sec cast(as example)->get the buff. It would be a little dmgincrease but as the rune is atm the worst talent dmgwise i think that would be fine.
Second Invocation: If it goes online like its now in the ptrnotes i think rop will never ever be used. Why should i cast a spell which roots me to on special place when i can cast a spell 1 sec longer and can free move anywhere. I dont get it. Until we get a Patchwerkfight back (which i dont think) it would nearly never be better.
Now it is other with a 40sec stronger buff which i really like. I dont would change that.
Personal i like the idea of them 3: One short heavy buff, one middlelong middlestrong buff and 1 very long low buff.
So we come to number 3: IW
15 sec 30% more power and then wait 10 sec for another. Mainidea not so bad but solution nearly bad. Why a shield as trigger?
Netherpower: Everytime u do damage from any source u get a stack of Netherpower. Maximum of 5 Stacks. Internal Cooldown 5 sec.
Incanters Ward: Consumes 5 stacks of Netherpower to grant u Incanters Ward. IW increases your spelldmg by 30% for 15 sec.

Shatter:
The question is here again: Why not bringing more differences between the classes. I mean u could get a "shatter" for fire with more dots instead of more crits and one for arcane with less manacost.
Deepfreeze too: There was a time when fire has its own stun. First it was rng then it become an improved frieblast which could stun. The Problem with shatter and deepfreeze is in my opinion that it is to good for frost and to bad for arcane/fire. So give it only to frost and make fire and arcane have their different other things.
So blizz dont have to balance 6 ways (3 talentrees one for pve and one for pvp) about one talent (shatter).

Moving aka first talentier:
Moving or not moving is the right question. Bosses and tactics lean to more and more moving, thinks like lvl 90talents lean to lesser moving. The classdescription was something like the standstillnuker. I like this. Im not a rogue jumping around like a squirrel.
But how can we get both under one hood. I think most of the time we should stand still. Its part of the class in my eyes. So things like cast all on move or cast many on move are no reasons for me.
So my solution would be: Give the whole class 2 spells. No talents, no speccorientation.
Lift up guys!: Summons 4 little managhost which cary u to any position u want. U can free move and cast all the time. As they are not really that strong u are shacked for the hole run and loose 25(30/40/whatever) spelldmg.
Movement yes but with really big downsides. It should be the last emergency if something really got wrong.
Arcane shift: U left ur mind behind. Ur mind is capable of casting 2/3/whatever spells while ur body can run to any point. After u have all casts done or after a special time ur ghost returns to your body. If your body returns to your ghost before the time expires u get only half of the cooldown.
It would like icy flows beside the fact that it goes a little bit more towards a smaller cooldown. Sometime u dont have to run out of a place for long time. So u could the spell more frequently.
Tier1 would then be open for something maybe funny. I think some glyphs could make it here. Blink+5m, Invis gives 5sec long 40% speed something other. Dont know.
So now u can flame me :P

[mrgreenthump]

@Tomathan: Whoah man pls use some gaps next time, I had a very hard time reading that. But touching at the level 90 talents. I had a chance to ask GC abt this and he was more towards it working for arcane as it should and being a fail towards fire and frost than fail for arcane. So my fear is that they will try to do something that will make it much more critical to upkeep the buffs as fire or frost.

And yes the Invocation vs RoP, old or new as fire you will allways choose invocation unless your literally cant have a big enough uptime on it, and there aint that many fights that dont let you do it. But comparing the old invocation to new 1, I would much rather have the old 1 if I had the choice, as its way ahead in damage. And if they change it to the 60 sec spell.. Well it certainly would make me take RoP for non-movement fight and take a hard look at IW when every possible. Invoc would still be the most stable talent out of the 3. And yes for the love of god remove the shield from incanter's.