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  1. #1
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    A Compilation of Proposed Changes

    After the shock and horror of the recent patch notes, I give you this. What follows is an exhaustive list of changes that have been designed and discussed in order to rectify some of the more severe problems with the Mage class. A few warnings before you begin reading:

    1) This is not a set of concrete demands, this is a list of concepts proposed to benefit the class.
    2) The numbers are not intended to be set in stone, and can be altered for balance purposes.

    With that, read away, discuss, and feel free to ask questions about the reasoning behind any of these changes. Many thanks to Pewpewblast, Shangalar, Thaladhrun, and others for their input.

    -------------

    General

    - Mana Gem removed.

    - Baseline regeneration from Nether Attunement increased, and will now calculate regeneration based on haste, mastery, or critical strike, whichever is highest.

    - Evocation has been changed, restoring 5% of your health instantly, and another 25% over 5 seconds, with a cooldown of 45 seconds. It now no longer restores mana.

    - Shatter removed as a baseline ability.

    - Counterspell cooldown reduced to 15 seconds, down from 24. School lockout changed to 4 sec to bring it in line with melee interrupts.

    - Arcane Brilliance increases spell haste by 5% rather than critical strike chance.

    - Blizzard is now instant cast rather than channeled, and has a five second cooldown.

    - Arcane Explosion is now a targetable AoE.

    - Flamestrike has been removed and replaced by Blast Wave.

    - Ice Barrier is now a baseline ability, recieved at level 30.

    - Spellsteal's mana cost has been reverted to 3% of base mana, now has a 6 second cooldown, steals two spells rather than one, and now has a priority queue of active damage boosts > Heals over Time > passive stat buffs.

    - Mirror Image and Cone of Cold have been switched; the former is gained at level 28, the latter at level 48.

    Arcane

    - Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles have been given new animations.

    - Arcane Explosion will always generate an Arcane Charge if at least four targets are hit. In addition, its damage is increased by 30% per stack of Arcane Charge, up from 24%.

    - New Spell: Mana Tap. Taps into nearby ley energies, restoring 45,000 mana (at level 90). 2 min cooldown.

    - Ice Lance now becomes a new spell called Nether Bolt for Arcane mages. Nether Bolt is instant cast, deals 115% of the damage of a single wave of Arcane Missiles, and refreshes your stacks of Arcane Charge. Damage is increased by 24% per stack of Arcane Charge.

    - Arcane Missiles altered. Your Arcane damage spells now have 40% chance to generate two stacks of Arcane Surge, stacking up to four times and which can be used for one of two spells: Arcane Missiles, or Nether Bolt. Arcane Missiles consumes two stacks of Arcane Surge, while Nether Bolt only consumes one.

    - Arcane Power has been changed. While the damage benefit and mana cost increase remain the same, at the end of its duration it will restore 15% of your mana immediately, and another 45% over 5 sec. This effect cannot be reset by Alter Time.

    Fire

    - Combustion damage increased to 75% of Ignite.

    - Your Fireball spell now generates a proc of Molten Fury, stacking up to 5 times. Each stack reduces the cast time and mana cost of your Pyroblast spell by 20%, and increase its damage by 2%. Gaining Hot Streak will clear your stacks of Molten Fury.

    - Inferno Blast is now off the Global Cooldown, and will spread your Combustion, Pyroblast, and Ignite effects to all targets within 8 yards.

    - Living Bomb is no longer able to be spread by Inferno Blast.

    Frost

    - The Frostburn Mastery now increases the bonus damage provided by your Frostbolt spell. In addition, the Frostbolt debuff now applies its bonus damage to Frostfire Bolt.

    - Casting Summon Water Elemental while an Elemental is already active will restore its health to full and clear all debuff and damage over time effects from it.

    - Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze now multiply the critical strike chance of Ice Lance and Frostfire Bolt by 2.5.

    - Your Water Elemental recieves a number of changes:

    - Water Jets: Launches a volley of water jets, striking a target as well as all targets within 8 yards of the primary target for X Frost damage. 15 sec cooldown.
    - Deluge: Places a debuff on an enemy target, causing the next Frostbolt spell cast by the Mage to generate two charges of Fingers of Frost. 25 sec cooldown, sharing a cooldown with Freeze.

    - Freeze will only generate charges of Fingers of Frost when it successfully roots targets.

    - Your Water Elemental will now passively be healed for 5% of all Frost damage you deal, in addition to being healed using Frostbolt.

    - Using Ice Lance against a target affected by your Blizzard spell will now cause Ice Lance to also strike all targets within 8 yards of the primary target for 25% of the damage dealt.

    Talents

    Level 15

    - Presence of Mind now has a 45 second cooldown. In addition when Presence of Mind is consumed, the mage recieves a buff called Arcane Mind, allowing the next 2 damage spells within 8 seconds to be cast while moving.

    - Scorch has been replaced with a new passive talent, Fiery Inspiration. Each damage spell with a cast time that is cast while stationary has a chance of generating a Spark of Inspiration, stacking up to four times. While active, Spark of Inspiration allows you to cast while moving, with each cast time spell consuming a Spark.

    - Ice Floes no longer has charges, permitting the casting of all mage spells while moving for 8 seconds. Casting an instant cast spell while Ice Floes is active will increase the duration by 1 second, up to a maximum of 4 additional seconds.

    Level 30

    - Blazing Speed has been replaced by a passive talent, Phase Shift, which causes you to move at 75% increased movement speed for 3 seconds after casting Blink, as well as surpressing all movement impairing effects during that time.

    - Ice Barrier has been replaced by a new talent, Refraction, which increases the health of your Mirror Images, reduces the damage they take from area of effect spells , and causes some of the damage you take to be split amongst your Images instead.

    Level 45

    - Frostjaw has been replaced with Deep Freeze.

    Level 60

    - Greater Invisibility now removes all damage over time effects when cast, up from two.

    Level 75

    - Nether Tempest periodic damage is reduced by 20%, and now strikes a nearby target within 8 yards for 120% of its periodic damage every tick.

    - Living Bomb's periodic damage decreased by 20%, explosive damage is increased by 20%, and automatically spreads spell to two nearby targets within 8 yards of the primary target.

    - Frost Bomb now has a six second duration, exploding for X damage after 2 seconds, 2X damage after 4 sec, and 4X damage at 6 sec. 8 second cooldown.

    Level 90

    EDIT: Scrapped, working on them again. Feel free to make suggestions.
    Last edited by Didactic; 2012-12-27 at 08:59 PM.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  2. #2
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    (This post is constantly being updated for the time being)

    General

    Proposed Spellsteal changes are fine, but only steal one effect, not two. Make a new glyph called Glyph of Stealing, which gives Spellsteal the ability to steal two instead of one.

    Level 30 Talents

    Phase Shift: Name changed to Improved Blink, as it's been called that for awhile.

    Frost/Level 45 Talents

    Deep Freeze is no longer a BASELINE ability, as it's baseline instead of Frost only. In addition, Deep Freeze no longer requires your target to be frozen, as it no longer increases the damage from your Mastery nor Shatter.

    Level 75 Talents

    Frost Bomb will now always crit against a Frozen target (Deep Freeze does not apply to this)

    Level 90 Talents

    Invocation: Changed to allow it to be cast while moving.
    Rune of Power: ^ as well, and radius increased by 50%.
    Incanter's Ward: Passive is never disabled, no matter what. Active is reduced by 10% (20% max, down from 30% max) to compensate for always having 6% bonus.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2012-12-27 at 09:11 PM.

  3. #3
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    (This post is constantly being updated for the time being)

    Level 30 Talents

    Phase Shift: Name changed to Improved Blink, as it's been called that for awhile.

    Frost/Level 45 Talents

    Deep Freeze is no longer a BASELINE ability, as it's baseline instead of Frost only. In addition, Deep Freeze no longer requires your target to be frozen, as it no longer increases the damage from your Mastery nor Shatter.

    Level 75 Talents

    Frost Bomb will now always crit against a Frozen target (Deep Freeze does not apply to this)

    Level 90 Talents

    Invocation: Changed to allow it to be cast while moving.
    Rune of Power: ^ as well, and radius increased by 50%.
    Incanter's Ward: Passive is never disabled, no matter what. Active is reduced by 10% (20% max, down from 30% max) to compensate for always having 6% bonus.
    You forgot giving Lhivera the boot.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  4. #4
    Please don't petition for the target cap to be removed from Inferno Blast again. Don't even list it, even if it isn't a list of demands!
    I know we all loved it when it was real but if it is ever to be re-implemented they will have to axe the damage from all of the spread spells. It was simply too powerful, and there is no way to balance it properly when it interacts with our most powerful single target damage ability.

    Most of these are quite satisfactory changes though. I like Frost Bomb as a single hit spell but I will accede that turning it into less of a burst spell is probably the best way to fix its various issues.

    I wouldn't really like Arcane Explosion as ground-target-able either but that's probably just me. I would rather be able to place something on the ground that will cast Arcane Explosion whenever I do, with mine still centred around me, even if then both explosions do half damage.
    Hell, maybe you could even place more than one and have the damage split by how many are active.

    Nether Bolt is quite an inspired idea.


    Personally I don't have much of an issue with the 90 talents as they are... provided that they decouple them from mana. Give Arcane the passive regen effect of standing in Rune of Power 100% of the time and I would be completely satisfied.
    I think a lot of people want more change than that though.

  5. #5
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    You forgot giving Lhivera the boot.
    Woah now, let's not get that involved here.

  6. #6
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Please don't petition from the target cap to be removed from Inferno Blast again. Don't even list it, even if it isn't a list of demands!
    I know we all loved it when it was real but if it is ever to be re-implemented they will have to axe the damage from all of the spread spells. It was simply too powerful, and there is no way to balance it properly when it interacts with our most powerful single target damage ability.

    Most of these are quite satisfactory changes though. I like Frost Bomb as a single hit spell but I will accede that turning it into less of a burst spell is probably the best way to fix its various issues.

    I wouldn't really like Arcane Explosion as ground-target-able either but that's probably just me. I would rather be able to place something on the ground that will cast Arcane Explosion whenever I do, with mine still centred around me, even if then both explosions do half damage.
    Hell, maybe you could even place more than one and have the damage split by how many are active.

    Nether Bolt is quite an inspired idea.
    We had capless DoT potential for quite a while as Fire, I don't see why it has to be retained, personally.

    Forgive me, I meant point blank target based, not ground targeted. Like a spammable instant cast Mind Sear.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 01:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    PPersonally I don't have much of an issue with the 90 talents as they are... provided that they decouple them from mana. Give Arcane the passive regen effect of standing in Rune of Power 100% of the time and I would be completely satisfied.
    I think a lot of people want more change than that though.
    Hence the buff to Nether Attunement to compensate for the 90 talents being axed.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    We had capless DoT potential for quite a while as Fire, I don't see why it has to be retained, personally.
    It was overpowered then and I am shocked that it remained in for as long as it did!
    Also remember that the only time the spread had no cap was when Impact was a proc, and thus not reliably available when you wanted it.
    Now that you can spread DoT effects virtually whenever you like in a single GCD there is no way to remove the target cap entirely and not make it overpowered, unless you do not allow it to spread Combustion. Especially if you remove the GCD cost as well!

    Target based Arcane Explosion is more interesting, though perhaps you could add an Arcane Nexus debuff that causes a target to duplicate your Explosion while also casting yours?
    I don't know, I would just be sad if Arcane Explosion was never centred around the mage. You could argue that I could do that still if I wanted to but it really would be a bit silly to do so if an alternative existed. It's always been a melee-range spell
    Last edited by Imnick; 2012-12-27 at 09:19 PM.

  8. #8
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    It was overpowered then and I am shocked that it remained in for as long as it did!
    Also remember that the only time the spread had on cap was when Impact was a proc, and thus not reliably available when you wanted it.
    Now that you can spread DoT effects virtually whenever you like in a single GCD there is no way to remove the target cap entirely and not make it overpowered, unless you do not allow it to spread Combustion.
    Maybe just letting it spread Ignite and Pyroblast then, or something.

    What we're aiming for in an AoE rotation is this: Lay a Blizzard down, spam Arcane Explosion, Blast Wave on CD.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 01:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Target based Arcane Explosion is more interesting, though perhaps you could add an Arcane Nexus debuff that causes a target to duplicate your Explosion while also casting yours?
    I don't know, I would just be sad if Arcane Explosion was never centred around the mage. You could argue that I could do that still if I wanted to but it really would be a bit silly to do so if an alternative existed. It's always been a melee-range spell
    A ranged class getting in close to do damage is by definition counter-intuitive. The other option we could do is offer a glyph, allowing players to pick between the two formats.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  9. #9
    I really should stop editing things into my posts, need to sort out my thoughts before hitting submit.

    Actually now I think about it, I do feel like making Blizzard identical to a Warlock's Rain of Fire is a little boring. Perhaps leave it as channelled, but allow instant cast spells (and Frost Bomb) to continue while you are channelling it? This is obviously possible now as Monks can do it.
    It's essentially the same effect and allows the same rotation you are proposing without being a reskin of a warlock spell.

  10. #10
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I really should stop editing things into my posts, need to sort out my thoughts before hitting submit.

    Actually now I think about it, I do feel like making Blizzard identical to a Warlock's Rain of Fire is a little boring. Perhaps leave it as channelled, but allow instant cast spells to continue while you are channelling it? This is obviously possible now as Monks can do it.
    It's essentially the same effect and allows the same rotation you are proposing without being a reskin of a warlock spell.
    Technically the current RoF is a reskin of the original WCIII Blizzard. Your suggestion is definitely a possibility, though.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 01:25 PM ----------

    One thing I forgot to add was that Scorch would become a baseline Fire spell.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  11. #11
    Ima do this one by one. Nice and slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    - Baseline regeneration from Nether Attunement increased, and will now calculate regeneration based on haste, mastery, or critical strike, whichever is highest.
    Nope. This would royally fyck up regen math. Nether Attunement needs to be balanced with haste, specifically in the way it is now. This is the only way static mana pools will work, mathematically. If you start balancing NA with a stat > haste, then many bad things will start happening, especially with the Arcane spec. I don't want to do all the math here (I'll leave that to Logix), but it basically has to do with non-scaling Arcane cycles and how cycles become degenerate at higher levels of gear.

    Basically, haste -> mana regen is not a 'mechanic' of the class. It is a necessity to make static mana pools work. Leave it alone.
    Verdict: No


    - Evocation has been changed, restoring 5% of your health instantly, and another 25% over 5 seconds, with a cooldown of 45 seconds.
    Are you getting rid of the mana regen?
    Verdict: Explanation needed

    - Shatter removed as a baseline ability.
    This change will be HUGE. I'm not saying I oppose it. I'm saying that removing Shatter means that pretty much every single spec will have to be fundamentally reworked for PvP. Breaking something this big is not prudent mid expo. Leave big redesigns for next expo.
    Verdict: Perhaps (delay for now)

    - Counterspell cooldown reduced to 15 seconds, down from 24. School lockout changed to 4 sec to bring it in line with melee interrupts.
    Nah. Mage CS has always been unique since it has a long CD but also a long lockout. That is what separates it from other interrupts. Couple that with the core mage philosophy of "blow sh!t up in 10 secs asap", they work well together. Mage's aren't supposed to constantly be interrupting people (if you want that, play a shaman). Mages are supposed to interrupt, sure, but that interrupt needs to be just right and lined up.

    Basically, I disagree with this. No need to homogenize more.
    Verdict: No

    - Arcane Brilliance increases spell haste by 5% rather than critical strike chance.
    Why? 5% crit is a unique raid buff. I know 5% spell haste is rare, but lets not tack it on to AI, and most of all, lets not give it to mages. Mages have enough 'raid buffs' to make them wanted. "Mages lack raid buffs" is not an issue, lets not dilute the REAL issues by making this one.
    Verdict: No

    - Blizzard is now instant cast rather than channeled, and has a five second cooldown.
    I don't want Rain of Fire. I am a mage. There is nothing wrong with Blizzard. Again. Lets please focus on things that are REAL issues and not just issues for the sake of having a long list. Ditto for your AE and Flamestrike suggestions. Mage AoE is not a big issue right now. Focus on the real issues please.
    Verdict: No

    - Ice Barrier is now a baseline ability, recieved at level 30.
    There is some value here, though I would wait to see what happens with the next patch. The one thing about 5.2 is that is good, is the change to Blazing speed. Personally, I think BS is borderline OP in its 5.2 incarnation, but don't quote me on that. If people are still blindly picking IB over BS post 5.2, then maybe we can look into putting it baseline. The real issue on that tier is Temporal Shield (which, ironically, doesn't make your list).
    Verdict: Perhaps (wait and see)

    - Spellsteal's mana cost has been reverted to 3% of base mana, now has a 6 second cooldown, steals two spells rather than one, and now has a priority queue of active damage boosts > Heals over Time > passive stat buffs.
    I actually prefer SS in its current form, i.e. the form where its more useful to Arcane mages than to non-Arcanists. The current model works well since you have other baseline spells that are more useful to the spec that mothers them, e.g. DF being more useful to frost, Flamestrike being more useful to Fire.
    Without the current SS version, Arcane really does not get any spell that is 'slightly more useful' for itself compared to other specs. The fact that SS does this now is a good thing, if nothing else, but to differentiate the specs a bit more.
    Basically, we want SS to be more useful for Arcane (i.e. spammable) and less for the other two.
    Verdict: No


    - Mirror Image and Cone of Cold have been switched; the former is gained at level 28, the latter at level 48.
    Explanation for this needed. Not that I'm against it, I just don't see the reason why
    Verdict: Explanation needed

    - Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles have been given new animations.
    Arcane Blast's most powerful quality in PvP is that it has no tracer. Try and change that and you will have an army of Arcanists wanting to melt you for suggesting a change. AM could use some bling love though.
    Verdict: No (unless its still tracer-less)
    Verdict Arcane Missiles: Yes

    - New Spell: Mana Tap. Taps into nearby ley energies, restoring 45,000 mana (at level 90). 2 min cooldown.
    Remove Mana gem and give it to Arcane only? Sure, but I don't think this is that big of a thing. True, fire and frost just don't have any obvious need for this, but that doesn't mean they wont. Basically, again, I don't think the fact that fire and frost have no mana issues at all and so we should remove mana gem is the right approach to the problem. Instead, we should focus on trying to give Fire and Frost incentives to use mana gem. Both specs are borderline derptastically simple enough as it is. You want to start 'removing' spells when things are too complicated.
    Verdict: No

    - Ice Lance now becomes a new spell called Nether Bolt for Arcane mages. Nether Bolt is instant cast, deals 115% of the damage of a single wave of Arcane Missiles, and refreshes your stacks of Arcane Charge. Damage is increased by 24% per stack of Arcane Charge.
    This is going to be a hot topic item in general very soon. Though not because of this specific change, but because of what it implies.

    As far as morphing Ice Lance to become this new Arcane spell is concerned, the Verdict: No. Since IL severs many other purposes for Arcane (esp in PvP and proc generation).

    The real core of this suggestion is what you want Nether Bolt to actually do, i.e. you want to give Arcane mages a spell that allows them to maintain their current stack from range. This will change the dynamic of the spec on a fundamental level, and hence will require a LOT of analysis before coming up with a verdict
    Verdict: Perhaps (needs a LOT more analysis)

    - Arcane Missiles altered. Your Arcane damage spells now have 40% chance to generate two stacks of Arcane Surge, stacking up to four times and which can be used for one of two spells: Arcane Missiles, or Nether Bolt. Arcane Missiles consumes two stacks of Arcane Surge, while Nether Bolt only consumes one.
    Adding another 'stack' to watch is not the solution for Arcane. I see what you are trying to do (spice up AM while making using AM a 'choice' rather than a 'duh use it' moment). It is a worthy goal, but this is not the way.
    That being said, increasing the stack size for AM from 2 to 5 could be interesting. That way, it will allow Arcanists to 'bank' or safe an AM stream for moments where they need more burst. Such a change works on a few levels:
    1) It gives Arcane back something that has been a core part of the spec for ages but was lost in MoP, controled burst (since the Arcanist controls exactly when to use up all his AM stacks, to save them, or to just weave them in like normal)
    2) It decouples Arcane's burst from long CDs. Currently, the only way Arcane can burst is through Alter Time and AP. Arcane's strength and uniqueness always was the fact that while it could burn very hard during AP/Cds, it can also do very respectable burst outside of them.
    3) It is a relatively simple change (i.e. changing an existing stack size from 2 to 5), making it more easy to 'sell' to Blizzard.

    Either way;
    Verdict on Goal: Yes
    Verdict on Solution: No

    - Arcane Power has been changed. While the damage benefit and mana cost increased remain the same, at the end of its duration it will restore 15% of your mana immediately, and another 45% over 5 sec. This effect cannot be reset by Alter Time.
    Basically, you are exchanging APs usage during AT for making AP an evocate. Not sure if I like this. I see the QoL implications, but I also see the 'reduction in skill' implications
    Verdict: Needs more explanation


    - Combustion damage increased to 75% of Ignite.
    Verdict: Yes
    Pretty basic. Combustion needs some love.

    - Your Fireball spell now generates a proc of Molten Fury, stacking up to 5 times. Each stack reduces the cast time and mana cost of your Pyroblast spell by 20%, and increase its damage by 2%. Gaining Hot Streak will clear your stacks of Molten Fury.
    I strongly disagree.
    While we all hate bad RNG, it is not bad that there exists a spec where RNG dictates more than others. This is the fire spec. Its RNG-y nature is why many like it. True, RNG is hard to balance and sometimes when you mess with things like CM multipliers, you can fuck up (e.g. the current state), however, there is also potential to not have it fuck up (e.g. the state of Fire pre-CM nerf). The thing that makes Pyro awesome (and much better than say a Warlock's soul fire) is in fact the very fact that it is unreliable. I.e. its RNG-y nature.
    Fixing Fire's RNG problems is a big topic, I agree. Fixing it like this is not the right solution.
    Verdict on Goal: Yes
    Verdict on Solution: No

    - Inferno Blast is now off the Global Cooldown, and will spread your Combustion, Pyroblast, and Ignite effects to all targets within 8 yards.
    This is something that I have been internally debating about for a long time now. I am currently leaning towards Verdict: Yes. Here are the reason;
    Making this change means Fire becomes the defacto "awesome AoE spec". I think that is fine, as long as the other two specs have something equally valid to be awesome in, e.g. Arcane is the defacto "awesome burst spec" and frost being the "awesome control spec" etc etc or something.
    Basically, I don't think a change like this can be made in a bubble. If you make this change, you need to make other changes to the other specs to balance it out. Overall it will be a good change, since it decreases the homogenization of the specs.
    Verdict: Perhaps (with changes to other specs)

    - Living Bomb is no longer able to be spread by Inferno Blast.
    I think this is already in 5.2?


    - The Frostburn Mastery now increases the bonus damage provided by your Frostbolt spell. In addition, the Frostbolt debuff now applies its bonus damage to Frostfire Bolt.
    I agree Frost's mastery needs to be looked at. I am not sold yet on the idea that the only way to fix it is to remove it altogether. Frost has always been about pwning things that are frozen and pwning them hard. The mastery encompasses that. True, it might be 'hamfisted' into PvE since you can't freeze a boss, but you can freeze everything else in the game, which is not a fact we can ignore.
    However, if after the analysis comes in and we find that we do need to get rid of the current Frostburn, this solution will be a definite no for me. Its a basic and boring damage increase. Nothing special or interesting. So no thank you.
    Verdict on Goal (more analysis on Frost's mastery): Yes
    Verdict on Solution: No

    - Casting Summon Water Elemental while an Elemental is already active will restore its health to full and clear all debuff and damage over time effects from it.
    Very low on the priority list.
    Verdict: Perhaps (after major issues are fixed)

    - Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze now multiply the critical strike chance of Ice Lance and Frostfire Bolt by 2.5.
    I'm assuming this goes hand in hand with the shatter change. see my response to that.

    - Deep Freeze removed from the Frost specialization.
    Yea.. no. Goes similar to my point with shatter. DF has been made a core part of the mage in MoP, for all 3 specs. We cannot just remove it without having to overhaul a TON of stuff. While that could be wise to do in the long run, its not something we can accomplish now (not without breaking the class even more)
    Verdict: Perhaps (delay for now)

    - Your Water Elemental recieves a number of changes:

    - Water Jets: Launches a volley of water jets, striking a target as well as all targets within 8 yards of the primary target for X Frost damage. 15 sec cooldown.
    - Deluge: Places a debuff on an enemy target, causing the next Frostbolt spell cast by the Mage to generate two charges of Fingers of Frost. 25 sec cooldown, sharing a cooldown with Freeze.
    Welly is getting some changes in 5.2, lets wait to see what they are.
    Verdict: Perhaps (wait and see)

    - Freeze will only generate charges of Fingers of Frost when it successfully roots targets.
    Already in 5.2 I believe.

    - Your Water Elemental will now passively be healed for 5% of all Frost damage you deal, in addition to being healed using Frostbolt.
    Whatever dude /yawn
    Verdict: Perhaps (after major issues are fixed)


    I need to run out for a bit, but I'll come and do the talents when I get back.
    "Zom is like that ace in the hole you keep for when shit hits the fan and you need a clutch. Unleash him when the need is most dire and watch how in just a few globals all your problems fade away. Mostly because they all just got melted."
    - High Warlord Daemon, PvP Officer, rBG Lead

  12. #12
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Nope. This would royally fyck up regen math. Nether Attunement needs to be balanced with haste, specifically in the way it is now. This is the only way static mana pools will work, mathematically. If you start balancing NA with a stat > haste, then many bad things will start happening, especially with the Arcane spec. I don't want to do all the math here (I'll leave that to Logix), but it basically has to do with non-scaling Arcane cycles and how cycles become degenerate at higher levels of gear.

    Basically, haste -> mana regen is not a 'mechanic' of the class. It is a necessity to make static mana pools work. Leave it alone.
    Verdict: No
    The only reason I included the other stats was as a by-thought, since because certain specs will value haste over the others. Perhaps the solution lies in making Nether Attunement a flat regen increased after the manner of Chaotic Energy, and making the stat variable Arcane exclusive.

    Are you getting rid of the mana regen?
    Verdict: Explanation needed
    Essentially. Neither Fire nor Frost has any real need for an on-demand mana restoration tool, especially given how cumbrous Evocation is at present.

    This change will be HUGE. I'm not saying I oppose it. I'm saying that removing Shatter means that pretty much every single spec will have to be fundamentally reworked for PvP. Breaking something this big is not prudent mid expo. Leave big redesigns for next expo.
    Verdict: Perhaps (delay for now)
    My thought too.

    Nah. Mage CS has always been unique since it has a long CD but also a long lockout. That is what separates it from other interrupts. Couple that with the core mage philosophy of "blow sh!t up in 10 secs asap", they work well together. Mage's aren't supposed to constantly be interrupting people (if you want that, play a shaman). Mages are supposed to interrupt, sure, but that interrupt needs to be just right and lined up.

    Basically, I disagree with this. No need to homogenize more.
    Verdict: No
    Homogenization is the only solution to the problem of balance, by definition. I personally don't give a fuck about PvP.

    I don't want Rain of Fire. I am a mage. There is nothing wrong with Blizzard. Again. Lets please focus on things that are REAL issues and not just issues for the sake of having a long list. Ditto for your AE and Flamestrike suggestions. Mage AoE is not a big issue right now. Focus on the real issues please.
    Verdict: No
    See the Blizzard discussion above. Aditionally, while you may not percieve it to be an issue, it is for some.

    There is some value here, though I would wait to see what happens with the next patch. The one thing about 5.2 is that is good, is the change to Blazing speed. Personally, I think BS is borderline OP in its 5.2 incarnation, but don't quote me on that. If people are still blindly picking IB over BS post 5.2, then maybe we can look into putting it baseline. The real issue on that tier is Temporal Shield (which, ironically, doesn't make your list).
    Verdict: Perhaps (wait and see)
    Because I really don't view Temporal Shield as being a terribly problematic spell. The issue with that particular Tier of talents is that active mitigation will always be preferable to either a speed increase or a health-regeneration mechanic. Since Mages are lacking in self-healing anyway, perhaps the answer lies in giving them a baseline survivability tool.

    I actually prefer SS in its current form, i.e. the form where its more useful to Arcane mages than to non-Arcanists. The current model works well since you have other baseline spells that are more useful to the spec that mothers them, e.g. DF being more useful to frost, Flamestrike being more useful to Fire.
    Without the current SS version, Arcane really does not get any spell that is 'slightly more useful' for itself compared to other specs. The fact that SS does this now is a good thing, if nothing else, but to differentiate the specs a bit more.
    Basically, we want SS to be more useful for Arcane (i.e. spammable) and less for the other two.
    Verdict: No
    It is entirely possible to tweak mechanics like this for one spec or the other. I.e. Make it spammable for Arcane, but not for Fire and Frost.

    Explanation for this needed. Not that I'm against it, I just don't see the reason why
    Verdict: Explanation needed
    To bring the spell in line with the proposed Mirror Image talent.

    Arcane Blast's most powerful quality in PvP is that it has no tracer. Try and change that and you will have an army of Arcanists wanting to melt you for suggesting a change. AM could use some bling love though.
    Verdict: No (unless its still tracer-less)
    Verdict Arcane Missiles: Yes
    Not saying it needs a tracer. I'm saying the explosion needs to be flashier

    Remove Mana gem and give it to Arcane only? Sure, but I don't think this is that big of a thing. True, fire and frost just don't have any obvious need for this, but that doesn't mean they wont. Basically, again, I don't think the fact that fire and frost have no mana issues at all and so we should remove mana gem is the right approach to the problem. Instead, we should focus on trying to give Fire and Frost incentives to use mana gem. Both specs are borderline derptastically simple enough as it is. You want to start 'removing' spells when things are too complicated.
    Verdict: No
    The current direction Blizzard is taking as regards mana makes the gem a redundant tool. So, I'm going to disagree.

    As far as morphing Ice Lance to become this new Arcane spell is concerned, the Verdict: No. Since IL severs many other purposes for Arcane (esp in PvP and proc generation).

    The real core of this suggestion is what you want Nether Bolt to actually do, i.e. you want to give Arcane mages a spell that allows them to maintain their current stack from range. This will change the dynamic of the spec on a fundamental level, and hence will require a LOT of analysis before coming up with a verdict
    Verdict: Perhaps (needs a LOT more analysis)

    Adding another 'stack' to watch is not the solution for Arcane. I see what you are trying to do (spice up AM while making using AM a 'choice' rather than a 'duh use it' moment). It is a worthy goal, but this is not the way.
    That being said, increasing the stack size for AM from 2 to 5 could be interesting. That way, it will allow Arcanists to 'bank' or safe an AM stream for moments where they need more burst. Such a change works on a few levels:
    1) It gives Arcane back something that has been a core part of the spec for ages but was lost in MoP, controled burst (since the Arcanist controls exactly when to use up all his AM stacks, to save them, or to just weave them in like normal)
    2) It decouples Arcane's burst from long CDs. Currently, the only way Arcane can burst is through Alter Time and AP. Arcane's strength and uniqueness always was the fact that while it could burn very hard during AP/Cds, it can also do very respectable burst outside of them.
    3) It is a relatively simple change (i.e. changing an existing stack size from 2 to 5), making it more easy to 'sell' to Blizzard.

    Either way;
    Verdict on Goal: Yes
    Verdict on Solution: No
    The intent behind Nether Bolt is a mobility enhancement tool, giving Arcanists an option to both maintain stacks from range and to deal acceptable damage during periods of movement. And yes, changing the hurrdurr aspect that is currently a part of Arcane Missiles. I view it not as giving them another stack to watch, but transmuting the current Arcane Missiles proc.

    Basically, you are exchanging APs usage during AT for making AP an evocate. Not sure if I like this. I see the QoL implications, but I also see the 'reduction in skill' implications
    Verdict: Needs more explanation
    This particular suggestion is intended to be fan service for burn phase Arcanists; given that these changes would remove Evocation as a mana regeneration tool, adding its mana regeneration mechanic to Arcane Power would enable Arcanists to work in a burn phase.

    EDIT: To clarify, it would be the mana regeneration that cannot be refreshed, not the damage buff. For obvious balance reasons.

    I strongly disagree.
    While we all hate bad RNG, it is not bad that there exists a spec where RNG dictates more than others. This is the fire spec. Its RNG-y nature is why many like it. True, RNG is hard to balance and sometimes when you mess with things like CM multipliers, you can fuck up (e.g. the current state), however, there is also potential to not have it fuck up (e.g. the state of Fire pre-CM nerf). The thing that makes Pyro awesome (and much better than say a Warlock's soul fire) is in fact the very fact that it is unreliable. I.e. its RNG-y nature.
    Fixing Fire's RNG problems is a big topic, I agree. Fixing it like this is not the right solution.
    Verdict on Goal: Yes
    Verdict on Solution: No
    This one I struggled with for the reasons above. My other suggestion was a modernized version of the old combustion mechanic, essentially a passive that increases crit chance for every non-crit spell that hits, cleared by getting a critical strike.

    I agree Frost's mastery needs to be looked at. I am not sold yet on the idea that the only way to fix it is to remove it altogether. Frost has always been about pwning things that are frozen and pwning them hard. The mastery encompasses that. True, it might be 'hamfisted' into PvE since you can't freeze a boss, but you can freeze everything else in the game, which is not a fact we can ignore.
    However, if after the analysis comes in and we find that we do need to get rid of the current Frostburn, this solution will be a definite no for me. Its a basic and boring damage increase. Nothing special or interesting. So no thank you.
    Verdict on Goal (more analysis on Frost's mastery): Yes
    Verdict on Solution: No
    The problem with Frost is that its damage potential is contingent upon its control (to a lesser extent than it used to be, granted). This introduces balance problems in PvP, especially when our toolkit of Frost-based control is quite comprehensive. This way, Mastery retains value across the board without being too overpowered in PvP.
    Last edited by Didactic; 2012-12-27 at 10:19 PM.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  13. #13
    I'm kinda with ZomgDPS in this 1..Well maybe not with the Counter spell, I have hated CS having such a long cd for a long long time, I mean sure the lock out is nice, but still its basicly useless in PvE other than being the OH SHIT back up..

    Seems more like a dream list rather than down to earth actual improvements that would benefit the specs. You had some good suggestions, but it certainly needs some work.

  14. #14
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    I'm kinda with ZomgDPS in this 1..Well maybe not with the Counter spell, I have hated CS having such a long cd for a long long time, I mean sure the lock out is nice, but still its basicly useless in PvE other than being the OH SHIT back up..

    Seems more like a dream list rather than down to earth actual improvements that would benefit the specs. You had some good suggestions, but it certainly needs some work.
    Then how about commenting on the individual suggestions rather than making vague statements? -raise eyebrow-
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  15. #15
    I think the point zomgDPS is making is that the reason mana regen scales with haste is that mana spending scales with haste
    Increasing your crit and mastery increases your damage but not your rate of mana expenditure, increasing your haste increases the rate at which your mana bar drops. The two are directly linked.
    You could argue that if it always picks your highest stat it's always going to compensate for your haste anyway but this actually decreases the value of Haste for Arcane in a way, because other stats will help your regen more if you focus on them, and offers no actual benefits because neither of the other two specs care about mana regeneration at present (or with your changes).

    A flat regen rate would be even worse.

    Rare as this may be I think I definitely agree with him on that point, there's really no reason to change it from Haste. It's not broken right now, don't break it by accident trying to fix it.

  16. #16
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I think the point zomgDPS is making is that the reason mana regen scales with haste is that mana spending scales with haste
    Increasing your crit and mastery increases your damage but not your rate of mana expenditure, increasing your haste increases the rate at which your mana bar drops. The two are directly linked.
    You could argue that if it always picks your highest stat it's always going to compensate for your haste anyway but this actually decreases the value of Haste for Arcane in a way, because other stats will help your regen more if you focus on them, and offers no actual benefits because neither of the other two specs care about mana regeneration at present (or with your changes).

    A flat regen rate would be even worse.

    Rare as this may be I think I definitely agree with him on that point, there's really no reason to change it from Haste. It's not broken right now, don't break it by accident trying to fix it.
    As said, it was a compensatory gesture given that the intent is to remove both Evocation and Mana Gem from general use. I do see the point, however.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Homogenization is the only solution to the problem of balance, by definition. I personally don't give a fuck about PvP.
    This right here is the exact reason you SHOULDN'T be making balancing decisions or suggesting changes. As rare as this is, I agree with zomgDPS for the most part. Your changes are not good changes for mid-expansion, as they basically require an entire overhaul of the class. Secondly, your changes are either pointless (removing Mana Gem and making it Arcane only), broken buffs (your entire Arcane suggestion), or just horrid nerfs (your entire Frost).

    You can't simply say patch notes are horrid then propose sweeping classes changes with a "fuck you" mentality towards half the game. I'm sorry, but unless this is a super rough first brainstorm (not even a draft), I would not be able to agree with anything you've put to keyboard here.

  18. #18
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    This right here is the exact reason you SHOULDN'T be making balancing decisions or suggesting changes. As rare as this is, I agree with zomgDPS for the most part. Your changes are not good changes for mid-expansion, as they basically require an entire overhaul of the class. Secondly, your changes are either pointless (removing Mana Gem and making it Arcane only), broken buffs (your entire Arcane suggestion), or just horrid nerfs (your entire Frost).

    You can't simply say patch notes are horrid then propose sweeping classes changes with a "fuck you" mentality towards half the game. I'm sorry, but unless this is a super rough first brainstorm (not even a draft), I would not be able to agree with anything you've put to keyboard here.
    So, because I dislike PvP, it means I'm not allowed to make suggestions about fixing the poor state of the class. Very droll.

    As I stated, this is not a set of concrete demands, but proposed concepts (few of which are actually purely mine in origin, point of fact, so getting up in my arse about it is not exactly valid).

    If you have better ideas, then by all means, go ahead and post them.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    So, because I dislike PvP, it means I'm not allowed to make suggestions about fixing the poor state of the class. Very droll.
    Uh... yes? At least if you aren't including their needs in your suggestions, regardless of your enjoyment of that part of the game.
    And you explicitly said that you are not considering the needs of PvP players.
    I would have thought that was sort of obvious to be honest.
    You can't propose changes to the class while ignoring the needs of a large percentage of the people who play that class, to assume such is madness. And extremely selfish.

  20. #20
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Uh... yes?
    I would have thought that was sort of obvious to be honest.
    You can't propose changes to the class while ignoring the needs of a large percentage of the people who play that class, to assume such is madness. And extremely selfish.
    Just because I may not like it does not mean I ignore it when mulling over Mage changes. I did not say "I did not take PvP into consideration when writing this post." I said "I personally don't give a fuck about pvp."

    I'm quite tempted to say 'Do you even lift'? Because some of you are getting rather pissy over suggestions intended to form a basis for discussion.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

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