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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    So... Um...

    Enjoy your thread guys. *Abandons ship!*
    Oh no you don't! I retain the power to ban you for being a wimp!

  2. #42
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    Oh no you don't! I retain the power to ban you for being a wimp!
    Forgive me, that comment was uncalled for. -rubs your back in apology-

    The reason I chose to make this thread is that I, like many others, am concerned about the direction in which Mages are being taken. Or lack thereof. Given that this class was my first back on release day, and has continued to be my main for almost a decade, it can get quite frustrating when the people at the helm seem to be debating which way to avoid the iceberg while we're approaching it, so to speak.

    As Zomg pointed out, Mages are the glass cannon class. Unfortunately, with the current content paradigm, there is no place for such a role. The changes I posted are intended to try and bridge the gap. Surely you can see that Mages are in class limbo; and I would like to hear your suggestions for getting us out of it.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  3. #43
    These changes would make mages the most fun class of all time thats for sure.
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2012-12-28 at 03:28 AM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    ... and today my lower back started acting up making me unable to lift (which sucks soooo much)...
    Bro, do you even lift?

    Haha! jay kay <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    So... Um...

    Enjoy your thread guys. *Abandons ship!*
    Lol PPB!!
    Yea guys, just chill lol :P




    Here is some perspective.
    With 5.2 we get a new raid tier. That alone should give us moment to pause.


    Raid tiers and class balance go hand in hand. No one has seen the new raids, no one is sure about the new mechanics and/or how these new mechanics will reflect on the specs and the eventual class balance.

    Maybe the new tier wont be so movement heavy. Maybe it will all be about AoE. Maybe the new mage tier set bonuses will suddenly make every mage want spirit (ok.. maybe not, but you get the idea ). Things will change, very soon, or at least, we will get a whole bunch of new information to crunch.
    Lets prep for analysis of that information.


    The best we can do right now is summarize a "state of the mage" type of list, so as to go into 5.2 with a foundation. Focusing our efforts towards that and maybe away from big sweeping design changes (as well as beating up on each other) will bear better fruit.

    What we really need is a concise list of "A B C are core issues with spec X Y Z", leaving things like whether Welly gets a passive heal or a big blue hat, out of consideration, for the moment (that being said, Illusion glyph, 30 mins CD? No thanks. Reduce, kkthxbai 1-2 min range max plox. Yea... Im an alchemist too saying that).

    Either way, PPB is right.

    Chillax Magi. Remember, we are supposed to be the 'smart' ones of WoW. Put all that +int gear to use. :P




    Shit. And I was supposed to be the angry rude one. lol!
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  5. #45
    I didn't read it all, but your proposed change for counterspell would be overpowered. The reason melee interrupts have a shorter CD is because they require -melee- range.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Grawlix View Post
    I didn't read it all, but your proposed change for counterspell would be overpowered. The reason melee interrupts have a shorter CD is because they require -melee- range.
    Shamans? Just saying..

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Shamans? Just saying..
    And find a person who thinks Wind Shear is balanced...

  8. #48
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    And find a person who thinks Wind Shear is balanced...
    Ok, ok. I've got it.

    - Counterspell now only incurs a 15 second cooldown when used against non-player targets.

    It would be more just a QoL change for PvE mages who still bother to interrupt, though, so... -shrug-
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  9. #49
    Which encounters actually call for a mage to interrupt? Two tanks is usually enough to cover most things and if that's not good enough you presumably have at least one melee DPS.
    Caster interrupts in PvE have never really been much more than a bonus.

  10. #50
    Hey Zomg, whatever happened to your site/blog?

    Anyway, I'd love to see an idea for mage executes. I think it's kind of dumb that none of our specs have one.

  11. #51
    Execute abilities are cool but I'm quite happy not having my class DPS balanced around a segment of the fight comprising 1/5th of the actual encounter

  12. #52
    Well that's the main reason i'd like it. They are awesome to have, it gives a certain dynamic of suspense to every fight. And IMO, the mage class is desperately in need of cool things. It doesn't have to be massive like the warrior execute, it could be something small, but just something.

    Although if it was up to me, bring back DF doing damage as a frost execute.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Execute abilities are cool but I'm quite happy not having my class DPS balanced around a segment of the fight comprising 1/5th of the actual encounter
    This.

    But its actually better for the game overall if there are less 'execute' abilities in general.

    If you think about it, lets say all DPS specs had execute abilities. What would then happen is that, outside of very special fight mechanics, your raid would always focus its damage into that part of the fight. Flasks, cooldowns, lusts, totems, banners etc would all just be dropped, like a script, within execute range, every time.

    Encounters would have to be created around this. Classes would have to be balanced around this, and overall, it would just make the whole system more constrained. Even in PvP.


    Now look at the same scenario with no DPS classes with execute abilities. Raid leaders would be free to adapt strategies or create new ones and be more flexible in their 'raid cooldown' usage. Players would be more flexible in using their cooldowns to maximum effect. This would also allow for more varied fight mechanics and a generally more spicy system overall, especially since the last thing the game needs is more homogenization (just think, 'homogenized raid encounters' *shivers*).


    We are probably at a slight medium today. You don't want to get rid of them completely since they are actually pretty cool.

    Nothing cooler than keeping an eye on your recount when the boss hits 20% and watching the blue bars of your four firemage guildies exploding (esp if they manged to spread the combust). Aah, good times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    Hey Zomg, whatever happened to your site/blog?
    It got apocalypsed (damn mayans!). Needing to rebuild.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  14. #54
    That's an incredibly good point. But I should note, it doesn't have to be an actual buff. I would love a purely aesthetic execute. Like frost tendrils slowly emanating from my character. Or Ice lance looks more awesome, Water elemental transforms, etc.

    Mages are in need of awesome-looking things.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    And IMO, the mage class is desperately in need of cool things. It doesn't have to be massive like the warrior execute, it could be something small, but just something.
    Verdict: Strongly Yes

    Amen to that!

    We desperately need something 'cool'. AT is not so bad, but its long CD just makes it a little restrictive.

    Temporal Shield could def use some work. I'd be surprised if it goes through 5.2 untouched.


    Mages need some cool new mechanic. For a long time, that was Blink.
    It was the only real mobility spell of its kind. But then Locks got Portal. Then huntards got backwards blink, then boomkins, and now practically everyone has 'cool' mobility spells coming out of their asses. I mean seriously, have you guys played monks?
    My mist monk is like a master of battlefield mobility. In a blink of an eye (pwund) I can be from one end of the field to the other. Totally pwns in rated BGs. Hard.


    I'm actually quite excited about Blazing Speed. But mobility it just not so 'special' anymore nowadays.


    I guess that is the other problem. Being 'special'. I mean look at rogues. Those guys are in worse shape than us I think in this regards. But at least they getting some (much needed) love in 5.2. Cloak and Dagger looks liek a cool mechanic (though its really just a stealthstep).

    Though as a mage, I guess I want a cool new mechanic that is more 'magic' related.

    I mean, whatever happened to metamagic? You know, from Dnd.


    Widen spells, extend spells, silent spells, empower spells etc etc. In some way AP is an 'empower spell' meta. PoM could be a 'still' meta. But as a concept, more of them can be brought into the mage class, who, after all, is supposed to be a Master of Magic.

    Destrolocks got 'widen' i think, in fire and brimstone, something which (even though I main a lock) i was not very happy about. Locks are masters of demons, even destro, which is supposed to be the most 'magey' of the locks, should still stick to that core.
    Funnily, my lock is a destrolock with grimmsac, the closest i could get to a mage, lol :P


    But in general, something that has a short cooldown and interacts with lots of our spells in special ways. Take our existing spells and use those. No need to create a whole new array.

    e.g.
    warning: incoming brainstorm


    Brainstorms

    Congeal Magic:
    instant cast
    10 sec cd
    1% mana

    Congeals all magic effects on a target forming a Mana Loop. Each subsequent mana spell cast on the target increases the charge of Mana Loop equal to the mana cost of the spell.


    Crush Mana:
    instant cast

    Crushes a Mana Loop, dealing X(based off value of mana loop charges) damage or healing to the target, and restoring Y mana to the mage and granting X% haste, crit and mastery for 15 seconds.

    If the target is hostile, Crushing Mana causes a Mana Wave.

    Mana Wave:

    A wave of pure mana emanates from the target, dealing X(small) damage to all enemies within 10 yards of the target and increasing the mana regen of all targets friendly to the mage within 50 yards by 15% for 10 seconds.

    Use:
    Slap a loop on a target, be it friendly or hostile, then crush it for a boost to your damage. Or pehaps your healers need mana? Crush it to boost theirs, maybe sync it with a mana tide (which works off of healer spirit, so the regen bonus will stack).

    Perhaps our 'cool' new mechanic should be helpful to others too?
    Mages and Healers have always been close, esp where mana is concerned (locks always had lifetap, their relationships with healers has always been very different).
    This would make their mana regen 'game' interesting too. Who knows? Maybe.

    or perhaps;

    Invert Spell:
    instant cast
    30 second cooldown

    The next mage spell cast within 10 seconds will have its targeting inverted.

    Single target spells become Area of Effect, having their effects distributed to all targets within 15 yards of the target. (e.g. AoE frostbolt, or better yet, aoe polymorph with duration split)
    Target-ted Area of Effect spells become single target, having their total effects focused on the current target. (e.g. single target flamestrike, entire flamestrike damage into the target).
    PbAoE spells become ConeAoE. (e.g. cone-ify arcane explosion, or do an cold explosion).
    Channeled AoE becomes Channeled Single target. (e.g. channel an entire blizzard's worth of damage into a single target, slows included).
    Channeled Single target becomes Channeled AoE. (e.g. channel arcane missiles, blizzard style).

    etc etc...


    Just something...



    Or perhaps you want a more "Time" based mage? I had posted some suggestions a while back, but those were mainly for Arcane.


    Though in the end, all of this is mute. The kind of change we all know we need, the 'coolness' changes, just can't happen mid expo.
    We are now deeply in the MoP shit-pit. Lets just learn our lesson to ensure we don't screw up next beta.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 05:35 PM ----------

    This is another one of my favorites:


    Transfer Magic
    instant cast
    8 sec cooldown

    Transfers magical effects between the target and the mage.

    For friendly targets, transfers all negative magical effects to the mage.
    For hostile targets, transfers all negative magical effects from the mage to the target


    obviously, all of this supported by adequately juicy visuals.

    Aah, brainstorming. Its like daydreaming with purpose.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  16. #56
    •Make Ice Barrier a core ability

    •Scrap the level 30 tree and give the choice of Blazing Speed, the Wrath Blastwave that had a knockback and add a Frost version of the Cataclysm Blastwave, Call it "Frost Wave".

    •Keep Flame Strike, make it instant cast with a cool down equivalent to its AE Dot duration.

    •Make Blizzard Instant cast, I really dig that on my lock.

    •Hold of on Evocation, the concept on the PTR looks interesting.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by dontknowdoya View Post
    Scrap the level 30 tree and give the choice of Blazing Speed, the Wrath Blastwave that had a knockback and add a Frost version of the Cataclysm Blastwave, Call it "Frost Wave".
    Not sure about this.
    Looking at Blazing speed vs a PbAoE knockback vs the original (first incarnation) of wall of frost (targetted AoE slow)?
    I don't know if the aoe slow brings much to the table. Sure, a ranged aoe snare sounds cool, but mop blizz + (if fire) fire bw has that somewhat covered.

    PbAoE knockback could be good, but Temporal Shield is a cooler idea. They need to work on it though. I think they will in 5.2. I'll see how that plays out first.

    Quote Originally Posted by dontknowdoya View Post
    Make Blizzard Instant cast, I really dig that on my lock.
    I know! I love it on my lock too. And lets keep it that way.
    I don't like "mee too" design. The thing that makes RoF 'cool' is its instant cast. Lets leave that as a goodie for locks. Find another one for mages.
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

  18. #58
    After some thought, I think it might be interesting to rework PoM to work like Glyphed Inner Focus for Priests instead of granting a single instant cast ability. Retains the skill needed to pull off cast time spells, since you are still open to CC and LoS, while also granting the virtual effect of being able to get a guaranteed spell out.

  19. #59
    Am i the only one who thinks mage needs a raid cd like rally,lock stone, tranq/HTT??

    feels like they could just give mage some kind of raid cd :/ not sure what but i just want one lol

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    Am i the only one who thinks mage needs a raid cd like rally,lock stone, tranq/HTT??

    feels like they could just give mage some kind of raid cd :/ not sure what but i just want one lol
    You mean something like time warp? Arguably the best raid cd there is?

    Hmm.

    Verdict: Perhaps (puff puff pass.. them the rules)
    "Lord Zom cannot really be stopped, just maybe slowed or distracted. Rest assured, if he's looking at you... you will be melted, very shortly."
    - Frost Mistress Shinzarah "the Banshee"

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