1. #1

    Elemental Shaman - Simcraft results VS Actual results

    Hey everyone.

    I have been using SimCraft for quite a while now and noticed something kind of odd today while browsing other Elemental logs and inspecting armory pages. SimCraft has been putting haste above mastery for me for some time now. My last sim had haste around 1.42, mastery at 1.41 and crit around 1.32 (going off memory). This is the closest it has been so far for me.

    As I have been browsing logs in order to compare myself to my peers, I have noticed a trend. Many of them seem to be stacking mastery. Judging by their logs, it is working pretty well. Of course many of these shaman have 3000-4000 more spell power than I do so they better be beating me!

    However, it still begs the question (IMO) why are they stacking mastery over haste? I am also noticing almost double the Lava Surge procs even though they have very similar flame shock tick counts which does not make sense to me unless Lava Surge proc chance is affected by a stat such as mastery (which I have heard rumors about but has never been proven to my knowledge) or maybe I am just one very unlucky shaman, lol.

    Anyhow, any thoughts on this? Did I just happen to pull up 3-4 high end Elemental Shaman that are all the exception to the rule?

  2. #2
    I've been doing some decent Rankings, however i go for Haste.

    For me, Mastery was better without the T14 4pc, with it Haste was ahead.

    Altough i simmed haste and Mastery build, Haste was 400 Dps ahead so no big difference.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  3. #3
    High Overlord
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  4. #4
    beware that on armory the "+3000" mastery buff is applied, so if you see someone with 7000 mastery and 6000 haste, he actually have 4000 mastery and 6000 haste (and is therefore haste oriented). It's actually pretty hard to have more haste than mastery shown on armory, as it'd mean you actually have 3000 more haste than mastery.

    Also I looked at 4 random shaman with a top 20 ranking in a hc boss, and none were going "all mastery" (two were really looking for haste, two had "balanced stat", but they had lot of "passive" mastery on their gear and tried to put as much haste as possible). Also all were using the +170 haste on glove (and none +170mastery)


    edit :

    I am also noticing almost double the Lava Surge procs even though they have very similar flame shock tick counts which does not make sense to me
    this is an example of sampling bias. In order to get a top rank you HAVE to be lucky on procs (once the boss get killed a lot of time), looking at top wols will always show "extremely lucky" behavior.
    Last edited by Bethan; 2012-12-28 at 02:20 PM.

  5. #5
    Aside from whyt they do now: haste has a tendency to make us GCD capped quite easily. So one scenario:

    Heroism +30% haste
    5% haste via raid buff

    + haste from gear -> you are easily GCD capped during Ascendance/for LB, massively devaluating haste for elemental. Especially when you get a haste procc out of EB.

    I think that haste still is best stat, most elementals still aim for it with 4PT14. But i think we will be very soon reaching a point where all out haste means being very often under the GCD for LB/CL. Especially if EM goes live like that.

  6. #6
    It's not too clear what your exact question/experience is since you've obviously progressed really well this current tier, but here are my thoughts, in addition to what has already been said.

    Are you plotting out your DPS per crit/haste/mastery? My understanding is that simming your gear once simply isn't enough to get completely accurate stat weights. Look over at Binkenstein's site for a discussion of plotting state weights. Basically, as you stack one stat like haste,the other may swing around in importance and overtake it.
    If you really want to know your true stat weights and the absolute ideal reforging, I think the idea is you sim once, get your stat weights, reforge as per the sim. Sim again with the new reforge and see what stat weights you get. If they are different, reforge again and sim again. The idea being that you keep reforging and simming until the stat weights level out and at that point, you've really got an ideal set of stat weights....until you get additional gear. Now, how much will doing that increase your DPS? I couldn't tell you, but I do know that it's an increase. Every once in a while I do that myself, but for the most part since chardev (the site I use to import reforges into simcraft without actually having to pay for them in game) has been buggy, I don't do it more than once or twice.

    As of two weeks ago, mastery was winning out by a hair for me. something like 1.17 to 1.09 and I went full mastery and it was great. Almost 50% chance at double eligible spellcast.
    I upgraded 2 pieces of gear at once and now haste is up to like 1.25 to 1.

    It just depends.

    ALSO, remember this in looking at WOL. Check their fight length vs your fight length. Check their Ascendance uptime versus your ascendance uptime. Imagine a patchwerk fight where Raid dps is so good that the entire fight log is 3minutes and 30 seconds long. For an ele shaman, that's 30 seconds of ascendance and 45 seconds of bloodlust and 3 minutes of non-ascendance dps. Now if your fight length is 5 minutes, no matter how good or geared you are, that's another 90 seconds of you dpsing without ascendance and without bloodlust and it will bring your overall dps down.

    And on an unrelated note as a friendly tip, "begging the question" does not mean "raises the question," just fyi. Begging the question is used to describe a logical fallacy where the speaker/writer assumes the point/fact they are trying to prove [/english nazi].

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Aside from whyt they do now: haste has a tendency to make us GCD capped quite easily. So one scenario:

    Heroism +30% haste
    5% haste via raid buff

    + haste from gear -> you are easily GCD capped during Ascendance/for LB, massively devaluating haste for elemental. Especially when you get a haste procc out of EB.

    I think that haste still is best stat, most elementals still aim for it with 4PT14. But i think we will be very soon reaching a point where all out haste means being very often under the GCD for LB/CL. Especially if EM goes live like that.
    I have Essence of Terror Hc, you know how i try to handle this proc if we use Bl on Pull?

    Kill Critter or put anything down (Turnip or such) to trigger Essence of Terror Proc, if you don't directly pull after Trash is dead and you are quick with procs, Essence of Terror CD can sit around at a minute while other Procs should be rdy again for Pull.

    Totally fun compared to other classes which don't care if EoT Procs during Bl.


    Also, i'm sitting at 111% Haste on Sha of Fear hc if the Haste Buff is active, Bl is running and EoT Procs, feels awesome to pull reduced gain out of 61% of your Haste and no gain from 11% Haste.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2012-12-28 at 03:50 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I have Essence of Terror Hc, you know how i try to handle this proc if we use Bl on Pull?

    Kill Critter or put anything down (Turnip or such) to trigger Essence of Terror Proc, if you don't directly pull after Trash is dead and you are quick with procs, Essence of Terror CD can sit around at a minute while other Procs should be rdy again for Pull.

    Totally fun compared to other classes which don't care if EoT Procs during Bl.


    Also, i'm sitting at 111% Haste on Sha of Fear hc if the Haste Buff is active, Bl is running and EoT Procs, feels awesome to pull reduced gain out of 61% of your Haste and no gain from 11% Haste.
    or you could just unequip - reequip it to trigger the internal cooldown (afaik at least feral cats used to do it in woltk). If you're afraid of ninja pulls and not beeing able to reequip it, you can also swap trinkets, but that'll trigger both icd.
    Last edited by Bethan; 2012-12-28 at 06:08 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bethan View Post
    or you could just unequip - reequip it to trigger the internal cooldown (afaik at least feral cats used to do it in woltk). If you're afraid of ninja pulls and not beeing able to reequip it, you can also swap trinkets, but that'll trigger both icd.
    That would work as well, but it's still pretty stupid to avoid wasted trinket procs because of Bl.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

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