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  1. #21
    Erm I don't see why i have to ask you to do something before you start covering the tracks. Pre-emptive correction to aid in where the argument was headed, is on you.


    Funny this one, as I clearly said "somewhat similar" and you paraphrased it into "same". Anyway, a lot of people felt comfortable staying at anywhere from 4k to 6k. Ascension became viable, so people went to it.

    Your "3 Chi/min" conclusion is probably based on the fact that "most" people benched at 13.33 regen with Asc, which requires quite a bit less than 4000. Anyway as has been mentioned and said to you countless (emphasis on countless) times, your mathematic models are to be taken as a guide. A lot of fights have offtank times, and places of light damage, yet chi building is still permitted. That skeys the "3 chi/min" into something else, because that 3 chi, is the marginal after taking the essentials, however it doesn't account for the fact, that when those essentials are taken care of for the period of time when you need extra chi, youll have more to use than 3 chi.

    Lowering energy regen for other stats is perfectly justified for a lot of people, since a lot of fights aren't particularly Chi expensive, or you are just offtanking, or there are periods of negligible damage going on.

  2. #22
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    People who took Asc to gain crit by lowering haste so their energy regen stayed the same also don't know what they are doing. Either that or they want exactly 3 less chi per min for no apparent reason.
    I'm not really sure anyone (or not many) people did this at least from what I have seen. What Ascension does is makes it a lot easier to quantify and balance exactly how much Chi you are generating and examine if you are gaining more Chi than you need. With PS it's hard to get a feel for this cause the extra Chi cause it would pop in irregularly and not always when you really needed it.

    I like being able to stack 5 Chi and micromanage my Chi generation to redirect rating into Crit most about Ascension. I've been running 6-7k Haste mostly for Wind Lord and Empress as those have really intense and Chi hungry moments but it's kind of overkill for most of the other fights (especially swaps). Maybe I'll drop my haste back and swap to Power Strikes on those two fights, hmmmmm....

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  3. #23
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Erm I don't see why i have to ask you to do something before you start covering the tracks. Pre-emptive correction to aid in where the argument was headed, is on you.
    I'm just gonna drop it. You obviously have some issues, and if believing I somehow knew you were going to bring up something and changed a post just incase you took the conversation in a certain direction is more plausible than fixing a spell error and word choice than nothing I say is going to change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Your "3 Chi/min" conclusion is probably based on the fact that "most" people benched at 13.33 regen with Asc, which requires quite a bit less than 4000. Anyway as has been mentioned and said to you countless (emphasis on countless) times, your mathematic models are to be taken as a guide. A lot of fights have offtank times, and places of light damage, yet chi building is still permitted. That skeys the "3 chi/min" into something else, because that 3 chi, is the marginal after taking the essentials, however it doesn't account for the fact, that when those essentials are taken care of for the period of time when you need extra chi, youll have more to use than 3 chi.
    My "exactly 3 less chi per min" statement was exactly that. If you knew some of the math you wouldn't just be guessing, wrongly, what I meant. If you have the same regen with PS as you do with Asc you have exactly 3 less chi per minute with Asc. There is no debate on that, it's simple arithmetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Lowering energy regen for other stats is perfectly justified for a lot of people, since a lot of fights aren't particularly Chi expensive, or you are just offtanking, or there are periods of negligible damage going on.
    I was going this route prior to 5.1 BrM Sticky post #1179 The argument you are trying to have right now was already done in the 2 pages following that post. That doesn't mean that you take Asc to drop haste.

    Your original point that I corrected was that Asc gives more EB, which is wrong. Everything subsequent to that has been you trying to weasel out of that culpability.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 11:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    I'm not really sure anyone (or not many) people did this at least from what I have seen. What Ascension does is makes it a lot easier to quantify and balance exactly how much Chi you are generating and examine if you are gaining more Chi than you need. With PS it's hard to get a feel for this cause the extra Chi cause it would pop in irregularly and not always when you really needed it.

    I like being able to stack 5 Chi and micromanage my Chi generation to redirect rating into Crit most about Ascension. I've been running 6-7k Haste mostly for Wind Lord and Empress as those have really intense and Chi hungry moments but it's kind of overkill for most of the other fights (especially swaps). Maybe I'll drop my haste back and swap to Power Strikes on those two fights, hmmmmm....
    You are preaching to the choir man. I take Asc for QoL b/c that is really the only benefit it has. I believe I run sub 3k haste with it, but I'm an alchy and drink haste elixirs, so prob sit around 3.5k - 4k. I trust the healers behind me. I know I can let a moderate stagger sit a minute if I have to. Heck they even track my stagger on their grids once I suggested it.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-29 at 04:42 AM.

  4. #24
    Call it what you like, lashing out doesn't make it any less true.

    You don't seem to understand the concept of advice being catered to one individual. The OP has enough haste to forego a safe amount. If he takes Asc, he will reforge a healthy amount back into crit, and more crit is more EB, that is beyond common sense.

    It being 3 less chi/min only accounts for the fact if he stays constant with his haste rating, which if you hadn't noticed is one of his questions and something he wont do. So no, it wont be exactly 3, it'll be around 3.

    Nothing else to really say, no point in arguing with you, you're too hung up on trying to win an argument to see any logic.

  5. #25
    .......open a new thread if you guys just want to argue with eachother!

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    You don't seem to understand the concept of advice being catered to one individual. The OP has enough haste to forego a safe amount. If he takes Asc, he will reforge a healthy amount back into crit, and more crit is more EB, that is beyond common sense.
    Your advice is wrong. He can reforge haste into crit without taking Asc. You keep treating Asc as some magically talent that lets you move haste to crit, it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    It being 3 less chi/min only accounts for the fact if he stays constant with his haste rating, which if you hadn't noticed is one of his questions and something he wont do. So no, it wont be exactly 3, it'll be around 3.
    This is also wrong. I said energy regen, not haste. If you have the same energy regen with Asc as with PS you will have exactly 3 less chi per min. If you take Asc but change nothing you will have more energy regen, but you will generate slightly less chi. All it is is quality of life. In all measurable aspects it is a loss.

    If he wants to drop haste he can drop haste while still keeping PS. The advice you gave to take Asc and drop haste is bad advice b/c you were not telling him the correct affect of Asc.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-29 at 01:57 PM.

  7. #27
    You don't seem to understand a QoL change has an effect on how you play. But then again, it all comes back to experience vs Math, so I won't hold you to that again.

    It seems like the only reasoning you have behind arguing is that your Maths says something is better or not. Math is absolute, but people aren't computers and they mess up. QoL life changes will in most cases make someone perform better than they will even with the most optimal setup. That is the advice i give, doing the Math is preached by you to no end, while it is misleading to the extent you go to with it, and how much you disregard the importance of QoL choices in this spec, so someone has to speak up.

    Lowering haste while in PS is QoL change that's going to be more nagative than positive, your energy regen will feel to slow, and your jumps in chi will come very 20 seconds. I know you said you dropped haste when you were still in PS pre-5.1 but let's face it.. you didn't have any discernible experience in fights that support any kind of gear chance.

    QoL life changes affect performance, more so than some Maths, simple as that.

  8. #28
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    You don't seem to understand a QoL change has an effect on how you play. But then again, it all comes back to experience vs Math, so I won't hold you to that again.

    It seems like the only reasoning you have behind arguing is that your Maths says something is better or not. Math is absolute, but people aren't computers and they mess up. QoL life changes will in most cases make someone perform better than they will even with the most optimal setup. That is the advice i give, doing the Math is preached by you to no end, while it is misleading to the extent you go to with it, and how much you disregard the importance of QoL choices in this spec, so someone has to speak up.

    Lowering haste while in PS is QoL change that's going to be more nagative than positive, your energy regen will feel to slow, and your jumps in chi will come very 20 seconds. I know you said you dropped haste when you were still in PS pre-5.1 but let's face it.. you didn't have any discernible experience in fights that support any kind of gear chance.

    QoL life changes affect performance, more so than some Maths, simple as that.
    Too bad that's not the advice you were giving. But glad we agree.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Danyka View Post
    .......open a new thread if you guys just want to argue with eachother!
    i was thinking this is the least useful advice thread ever. but the original poster did get opinions at least.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Going from your 489/476 Garakals to a 496 2H is an upgrade regardless if its gemmed or not (they are itemized w/o the gem in mind). The upgrade is quite big to still stay with DW (the issue of going DW or 2H normally becomes a problem when they are very similar Ilvl, but here, it isnt). If you were to get a 483 Claw of shekzeer, the avg level of your weps would be 486, compared to gao rei's 496, it is still quite a significant downgrade. Now, if you are talking about the 483 Gao-rei, then its a no brainer, stay DW, even the dual garakal.

    So yea, gemming a 496 gao rei, and enchanting dancing steel would be the best way to go. Though youre gonna hate the EB gen at first

    It is different for everybody, and different for each fight. On aoe fights, ascension is king, everything else PS is better chi generation, but worse EB generation and dps. See what your guild/you struggle the most on, and gem/talent accordingly. If you will go towards Ascension, 4200 is the minimum a lot of people set, when they are trying it out for the first time, go above 7k though, and youre going to get overwhelmed. If you are confident, you can lower it to about 2k, but your energy bar will feel like a snail.

    Your shuffle uptime seems to be pretty solid, so lowering your haste seems like a safe bet.
    Thank you very much for your insight. I forgot to mention it was the 483 Gao-rei, so I'll be sticking with dual wield. As far as talents go, there's been a lot to read between Power Strikes and Ascension on this thread but basing it more on personal preference, I think sticking with Ascension and not lowering my haste is in my best interest. It's quite comfortable playing Brewmaster with the amount of enegery/chi that I generate currently. I may toy around with it a bit another time.

    Thank you everyone for your advice!

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