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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Ok..this I don't get. Currently I'll spend months smashing my face into the current 3 raids but then you want me to continue to smashing my face into them next tier? That makes it worse than what you were just complaining about with the heroics because not only is it over 1 tier you want to extend into the next one too?
    If you're spending months doing the current 3 raids then you wont need to be caught up. Alts/Off-specs? Well aren't you doing LFR at the moment on them? The main purpose of the "catch up" is for new players.

    But that being said, you only do a raid once per week (per toon) whereas 5 mans you can do 10 in a day (or more). Many people still enjoy raids long after they were released provided it's mixed in with new content.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabsy View Post
    what is so awful about clearing T14 to gear up for T15?

    i don't understand why so many people want to clear the latest content but refuse to clear current content... normal mode T15 will probably be clearable with normal mode T14 gear... plus there are the world bosses who drop better gear
    The problem is nobody want to run old content - and those who want to run it - want to run it once - not go there for few weeks - especially that now they will be able to see it in lfr once . And if u tell me that people will be happy to run tier 14 for few weeks when they could be runing t15 then we have been playing completly different game so far -_- cause i havent even once saw old content run organzize for anything other then mounts.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    The problem is nobody want to run old content - and those who want to run it - want to run it once - not go there for few weeks - especially that now they will be able to see it in lfr once . And if u tell me that people will be happy to run tier 14 for few weeks when they could be runing t15 then we have been playing completly different game so far -_- cause i havent even once saw old content run organzize for anything other then mounts.
    This is what I've been trying to say. Mounts/pets/titles are all ways Blizz tries to force players into running older content. And most of the time people will just wait until the instance is old enough they can solo it. People want to run new fresh stuff, not old stuff.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    This is what I've been trying to say. Mounts/pets/titles are all ways Blizz tries to force players into running older content. And most of the time people will just wait until the instance is old enough they can solo it. People want to run new fresh stuff, not old stuff.
    No some people (note how I tried to not speak for everyone there?) want variety.

    Please remember there are a great deal of people that play WoW.

    You can't make new content to rewarding (5 mans raining epics) or everyone will stop doing old content.
    Last edited by Quilzar; 2012-12-28 at 08:30 PM.

  5. #185
    I have a hard time being sympathetic to your plight. I don't understand where people like you come off thinking this way, but I'll try and break this down for you specifically, although this really applies to anyone. I play a Monk as my main and he's currently sitting at around 493 ilevel. I decided to level my Warlock up and give him a go. I did this three weeks ago. Now, I understand you discounted BoE gear etc, but you really shouldn't. Here is what happened with my Warlock. He is a tailor, so I made sure I leveled up his professions and did my daily tailoring cooldown while leveling him to have Imperial Silks waiting for when I hit 90. Upon hitting 90, I crafted the 476 chest/gloves. I then went and paid a DK on my server to carry me through 10 arena wins to get my Conquest cap. After that I hit up Tol'barad and Wintergrasp each time it was available that I was online. I got lucky on Sha and he dropped my tier legs. During all this I was chain running 5 mans non stop. I used my Conquest gear to buy PvP bracers, and used my honor for various other pieces, while also picking up multiple 463's in dungeons. I was easily able to hit 460 ilevel the day I hit 90, through PvP gear and 5 mans, and using my excess justice to upgrade my 5 man gear. I went into LFR for MV and got relatively lucky. I picked up shoulders, belt, and weapon there. Oh, I also got the 476 boots from the Sha quest. I got up to a 480 ilevel the next week and did both the HoF and ToES LFR's on top of MV. I picked up a cloak and offhand that week.

    My Warlock is now sitting at 477 ilevel, although last week I didn't cap valor or conquest, and I haven't run LFR this week, but I did buy the valor ring/trinket from Dominance Offensive.


    Now lets assume this is you, coming back to the game in 5.2. For the sake of argument lets also pretend you had hit 90 prior to your "vacation" from WoW but didn't get any gear prior to leaving, so you're sitting at around a 430-440 ilevel. Lets also assume you're broke as a joke and have no gold or professions. Now in what I described above for my Warlock, I was doing it all on my own. You have the backing of a guild that obviously likes you, or else they wouldn't have contacted you urging you to come back in 5.2, so I assume you have friends within this group. So you log in, you ask your buddies to do some arenas with you for points. You go do Sha. That's two epics guaranteed right there, from getting Conq cap and the Sha boots. Right now, the 476 crafted items go for like...2500g on my server. By the time 5.2 comes around they will be even less. Lets say 1500. Collectively, if your group of friends really like you enough to want you to come back for 5.2, they could all pitch in...lets see (assuming 10 man guild with you being the 10th), 2 BoE 476 crafted at 1500 each, so 3000/9, each person from your group chips in roughly 350g a piece, and now you have epic boots, chest, gloves, and whatever piece of Conquest gear you bought. At this point, you can run 5 mans until your eyes bleed with your guild group, and if you did enough to get a 463 in every slot, and then continued to do them for justice to upgrade, you'd be sitting at....473 ilevel,

    That comes at the price of doing 10 arena wins, your guild group splitting the cost to chip in 350g each, and running 5 mans. You haven't even touched LFR yet, which with the new patch will be MV 1st half, MV 2nd half, HoF 1st half, HoF 2nd half, ToE, new LFR 1st part, new LFR 2nd part, new LFR 3rd part, new LFR 4th part. That brings your chance of getting loot from LFR to a grand total of 28 bosses. 28 chances at loot seem pretty good, I'm sure you'll get a few upgrades.


    Beyond all that though, and some of what I described is a bit extreme (like all the 5 mans you'd have to do), it is very doable to get a more than reasonable ilevel for 5.2 HOWEVER, that would really apply to someone who is A) leveling an alt, or B) just came back to the game and has no friends.


    You have friends though. They're a guild already. They WANT you to be apart of it. They're already clearing the current 5.0 content. By the time 5.2 comes, even if they aren't 16/16 normal now, I'm positive they will be by then. Guess what you do? They've been clearing 5.0 content for what, 5 months by the time 5.2 comes out? They don't need anything from there anymore, or if they do, it's very little. So the first night you sign on they run you through the 5.0 content ONE time, and give you the applicable gear that drops. It shouldn't be a "chore" to run it once for you, and have you immediately geared as hell ready to go. They like you, remember? They're your buddies, they want you to come back and raid. Surely they wouldn't mind running you through 5.0 content to get geared once, would they? Even if you blow this off, as you did in your original post, I already pointed out how easy it was to hit a 473 ilevel just through doing Sha once, getting your Conq cap, getting two dirt cheap BoE's, and running 5 mans like crazy. Hell if you don't buy the BoE's, it still comes out to...472 ilevel. That's assuming you upgrade all your 5 man gear with JP though. And again, that's assuming you don't do any LFR.


    All I really hear from you is complaining for no reason. I must ask, when did you start playing WoW? I'm not trying to be a dbag with that question, but you do realize how content worked before right? There weren't always 5 mans that brought you up to the the current content ilevel like there was in Cata. For example in BC, there were 0 5 mans added until Sunwell when they added ONE. You just went and did normal 5 mans/heroic 5 mans/Karazhan to gear up, then TK/SCC, then BT/MH.


    I guess to me it just sounds like you're one of those "I want good gear without effort". The gear needed for you to reasonably clear the content is there. You just have to put in some effort on your end.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Quilzar View Post
    No some people (note how I tried to not speak for everyone there?) want variety.

    Please remember there are a great deal of people that play WoW.

    You can't make new content to rewarding (5 mans raining epics) or everyone will stop doing old content.
    I want the variety to run heroics instead of doing dailies for rep and tokens but you don't see Blizz giving me that do you? Are you one of the people who think that taking away heroics and giving dailies instead increased the variety?

    And yes, people stop doing old content, that is the nature of an MMO like WoW where old gear is replaced every new tier. You stop running the old stuff and run the new stuff. GW2 tried a different approach where everything is always current and it works for that game because all end game stuff is the same strength regardless of where you get it. It doesn't work in WoW trying to get people to run old stuff when new stuff is out and the new stuff is BETTER. This is the way WoW has ALWAYS worked.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuke1096 View Post
    489 and 496 Valor Gear will likely be bumped down to Justice Points. That's more than enough to get caught up if you're behind.
    This. There will also probably be new gear to buy with VP and they could possibly remove the rep requirements entirely from the old ones. Especially with the additions in patch 5.1, this will pretty much provide you with everything you need but a weapon. There are also craftables, world drops on the AH, BMAh, world bosses (including new ones) and item upgrade levels. More than enough options to get you ready for the new normal modes if you wish to do so. If that is too much work, then raiding is not for you, raiding is supposed to be a time investment inside and outside of raids, LFR is in the game for a reason.

  8. #188
    So it started with only hardcores could experience content and get the cool gear.
    In TBC, a bit more casual players could experience content and get gear.
    Wrath - Well, rise of the casuals!
    Cataclysm - A bit harsh on the casuals in the beginning.

    And now you want to be able to start raiding the newest raids with blue gear?
    Stop being that lazy and farm some Justice points, get some gear, queue up for the older content, get gear etc.

    YOU didn't bother to do anything after getting to 463 ilvl, YOU don't get to start off with 5.2 raiding.
    Simple as that, suck it up.
    Just because you were lazy or whatever, doesn't mean 5.2 will be a dissapointment for anyone but yourself.
    And already calling a patch for dissapointing when there's no testing what so ever yet, it stupid.

  9. #189
    Blademaster illibladesedge's Avatar
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    new daily hub

    /close thread

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I want the variety to run heroics instead of doing dailies for rep and tokens but you don't see Blizz giving me that do you? Are you one of the people who think that taking away heroics and giving dailies instead increased the variety?

    And yes, people stop doing old content, that is the nature of an MMO like WoW where old gear is replaced every new tier. You stop running the old stuff and run the new stuff. GW2 tried a different approach where everything is always current and it works for that game because all end game stuff is the same strength regardless of where you get it. It doesn't work in WoW trying to get people to run old stuff when new stuff is out and the new stuff is BETTER. This is the way WoW has ALWAYS worked.
    ./sigh

    This is how WoW worked in Cata.

    This is NOT at all in the slightest way shape or form "The way WoW has ALWAYS worked." please stop talking utter total drivel, you are now just making yourself look ignorant.

    Have you read the patch notes about Rep gains? i.e. they are actively thinking of other ways of getting Rep they will work on more.

    Yes I am "one of those people" that is very very glad that you don't just put on a tabbard and smash you face into 5 mans then show up at the vendor when your exalted two hours later.
    Last edited by Quilzar; 2012-12-28 at 09:03 PM.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Quilzar View Post
    ./sigh

    This is how WoW worked in Cata.

    This is NOT at all in the slightest way shape or form "The way WoW has ALWAYS worked." please stop talking utter total drivel, you are now just making yourself look ignorant.
    I admittedly started playing at the end of TBC. My first raid was Kara. But when I did start raiding my guild went in an orderly fashion and stopped raiding the previous stuff when a new tier came out. Maybe we were crazy but I actually think this is how most people played the game so no, I don't think I'm making myself look ignorant, I think you are. People stop raiding old tiers when new tiers came out. Why would I want to go run T14 and get T14 gear when I can get T15 gear which has more stats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quilzar View Post
    Yes I am "one of those people" that is very very glad that you don't just put on a tabbard and smash you face into 5 mans then show up at the vendor when your exalted two hours later.
    So you want variety here but you're ok with taking it away there? If its about being able to hit exalted in 2 hours then limit the amount of rep you can gain from doing heroics to what you can gain from doing the factions dailies. More variety is better, that's what you said, except apparently here.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    So you want variety here but you're ok with taking it away there? If its about being able to hit exalted in 2 hours then limit the amount of rep you can gain from doing heroics to what you can gain from doing the factions dailies. More variety is better, that's what you said, except apparently here.
    No I want variety everywhere!

    Couple of really good ideas I have seen are "Farming Rares for Rep" (Kind of like a bounty quests).

    They have even talked about "Bonus Rep" for your first Heroic every day again I would be cool with that (again this to me does not fell like your earning it though).

    I love the farm idea they are implementing.

    I would be good if they introduced a Rep reward for running challenge modes (as there is no gear there).

    Making 5 mans to rewarding so that you get Raining Epics, Gaining Rep and Valor just means no one will EVER do anything else because doing 5 mans is way way to easy.

    I will be very happy if they implement other ways of getting rep, this will be great for my alts.

    I will NOT be happy if they reintroduce you run 5 mans and you get EVERYTHING.

    That is not good design. It makes it the only way people will do anything.
    Last edited by Quilzar; 2012-12-28 at 09:13 PM.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I admittedly started playing at the end of TBC. My first raid was Kara. But when I did start raiding my guild went in an orderly fashion and stopped raiding the previous stuff when a new tier came out. Maybe we were crazy but I actually think this is how most people played the game so no, I don't think I'm making myself look ignorant, I think you are. People stop raiding old tiers when new tiers came out. Why would I want to go run T14 and get T14 gear when I can get T15 gear which has more stats?



    So you want variety here but you're ok with taking it away there? If its about being able to hit exalted in 2 hours then limit the amount of rep you can gain from doing heroics to what you can gain from doing the factions dailies. More variety is better, that's what you said, except apparently here.
    When the new raids came out in BC, people were still absolutely raiding Kara for badges and to help gear a million shamans to kill Brutallus.

    Anyway, you're conflating what players who have already played the current tier with newer players. Yes, players who have done the current tier repeatedly will focus on downing the next tier's bosses. That's true whether we're talking about BC or MOP. That's different from what people here are talking about (and what you were talking about in the hypothetical conversation you made up)- players who are new and have not experienced t14 yet. To them, the mere existence of t15 doesn't mean that they shouldn't get to experience t14 as its own tier. Gearing up through new dungeons makes the old raids obsolete far too quickly for players like them, especially when there are plenty of other things that they'll be doing to get gear as well. Of course, they'll be on this gear treadmill so they can eventually get the newest t15 gear.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I admittedly started playing at the end of TBC. My first raid was Kara. But when I did start raiding my guild went in an orderly fashion and stopped raiding the previous stuff when a new tier came out. Maybe we were crazy but I actually think this is how most people played the game so no, I don't think I'm making myself look ignorant, I think you are. People stop raiding old tiers when new tiers came out. Why would I want to go run T14 and get T14 gear when I can get T15 gear which has more stats?


    It depends on when you started in TBC and what progression your guild was at. Guilds that were progressing through SSC and TK were still often clearing Grulls, Mags, and Kara. Once guilds got into BT and Hyjal they generally stopped with Kara, Mags, and Gruuls, although that wasn't always the case because sometimes some really good trinkets and other gear could still be gained ( plus they often still did it to gear up replacement members ). Once Sunwell came out, most of the progression guilds were still clearing BT for the Warglaives. Oddly enough, with the new Badge gear coming in, lots of T6 guilds went back to running Kara once a week to fill in for bad RNG and for alts.

    The thing is though, every raid in TBC stayed useful for some group of people through the entire expansion. Starting in Wrath they started having to create ways to get people to continue to run old content ( weekly raid quests ), and with Cata it got even worse because people could just bypass it completely with heroic gear.

    People complained for all of Cata that they had very little to do, so one of the ways Blizzard is solving that is by making older raids still useful through the entire expansion. I personally think what they are doing is good idea, and will help keep all the content for the entire expansion useful.

  15. #195
    People like the OP ruined Wow tbh. The system of vanilla and tbc was great. Progression through tiers makes it a lot more epic, instead of just hopping on the progress train from any point.

    Some of my best raiding memories was going back to Gruul's lair to help people get their trinket. The change of scenery, world pvp outside Gruuls. Good times. But I guess you want to farm the 1 current raidzone like a zombie instead.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    The problem is nobody want to run old content - and those who want to run it - want to run it once - not go there for few weeks - especially that now they will be able to see it in lfr once . And if u tell me that people will be happy to run tier 14 for few weeks when they could be runing t15 then we have been playing completly different game so far -_- cause i havent even once saw old content run organzize for anything other then mounts.
    That's funny because, TBC , the most famed expansion in this forum or any other had exactly that model. You could never raid Sunwell without going through Kara, SSC , TK,BT,Hyjal. And if you were a new player, you had absolutely no way to catch up except raiding all of the content and gearing up slowly and surely. But, this time, you actually have the chance to gear outside of just raids. LFR's, VP Gear, Crafted gear and gear upgrades can get you high enough to be able to skip a tier if you'd wish. You did not have that in TBC.

    I really like the way the game turns out lately, but what concerns me is the state of the community. It seems that everywhere people are just complaining about every single thing possible. People complain that they want old 'harder' models back, and when they get that they complain how they want an 'easier' time. Although I admit complainers always existed since Vanilla, but lately, it has gotten a lot worse. It seems the game and the forums are swarmed with spoiled crybabies.

    I'll stop my rant here, but I would like you to view this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBddZ1uwtsk . Perfectally portraits what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Xsy; 2012-12-28 at 09:33 PM.

  17. #197
    Herald of the Titans Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    You forgot about the new lfr with its stupidly high ilvl gear
    Synek - best rogue in the world
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I don't think I know what the acronym "tsg" is. It's not RBG's or Arena, random battlegrounds, or any form of dungeon or raid that I can think of. What does it mean?

  18. #198
    Well we are all forgeting one more thing. Not only loot is important but also having something new to do. And no new dungeons not even 1 means we will be stuck with the same boring to death MoP idiotic easy ones. with the 5.2 gear they will be taking like 5 minutes each if u only will have 1 raider dps in them -_- Which will result in siting in the city and afk exackly just like in DS -_- and whining about lack of content - cause if ur raiding casually then ur spending 6-8 hours weekly in raid - and what to do with the rest of time ? new daily hub ? dungeons would be at least and alternative -_-

  19. #199
    any guild worth being in could carry 1 person through normal modes, if you could do more than 0 DPS and manage not to die to shit
    Rejoice, For very bad things are about to happen...

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Droodeffekt View Post
    Some people here seem to be missing the point a little here.

    I am asking for 5 man dungeons to be a way to get you within a reasonable margin for the new patch to start a fresh. Saying things such as "why should you because other raiders put in solid effort to get where they are" is sort of illogical as I am asking for reasonable gear, not asking for gear to wipe out everything a normal raider has worked for. Even with my proposed idea, someone who has been raiding will still be more geared, potentially a lot more geared, and therefore will still maintain an advantage for their efforts without punishing people who for whatever reason have not been raiding prior.
    No, we get it. Or at least I do. I just don't agree that someone who starts in fresh quest gear should be able to run 5 mans for a weekend or so and be close to as geared as someone who has gained rep, bought VP gear, LFRed and perhaps run normals. Not at this point in the xpac at least.

    Look, if you ding right at 5.2 release you can get to 460 pretty easily. Then run LFR for a bit and get some rep. The Shieldwall epics are 496. Will this take some time? Yes. If it doesn't, if it's trivial, then you invalidate any effort. There's no reason to play in between patches.

    Now, late in the xpac? I care a lot less and I think it makes more sense... people would otherwise be SO far behind that it would mean they could n't raid at all ever. But the fact is that the players who do put in some consistent effort month in and month out shouldn't be able to be matched with someone who subs for a patch, runs a few days of 5 mans, runs some raids, then unsubs until the next patch.

    It's definitely a balance... reward effort too much and people who start late can never catch up. Reward it too little and there's no reason to play consistently (from a gearing standpoint that is). To me, LFR solves a lot of this - you don't catch up gear-wise in 5 mans, you LFR. Don't want to LFR? Well then you don't get raid level gear to help you step up to the current normal raid tier. 5 Mans? They should give the same level of gear as the previous tier's LFR if they are a feature of the patch. So, if we were getting new 5 mans in 5.2 they should drop 476 and perhaps some 483 gear. Not 489.

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