Patch 5.2, disappointment for people returning to raids.

[clevin]

That's funny because, TBC , the most famed expansion in this forum or any other had exactly that model. You could never raid Sunwell without going through Kara, SSC , TK,BT,Hyjal. And if you were a new player, you had absolutely no way to catch up except raiding all of the content and gearing up slowly and surely. But, this time, you actually have the chance to gear outside of just raids. LFR's, VP Gear, Crafted gear and gear upgrades can get you high enough to be able to skip a tier if you'd wish. You did not have that in TBC. .

incorrect. TBC had excellent crafted gear for many slots at least for casters. You could pretty easily run Kara a few times, pop in some crafted gear and be reasonable in BT. Yes, you had to run some older raids, but that wasn't a huge hassle. What made it a hassle was that there was no badge gear until 2.4 and that the older raids were all 25 man. Newer players couldn't run through 10 man versions of SSC, BT etc to grab gear for Sunwell. After ZA you could do that, but not before.

If TBC had had 10 man versions of all of the raids and nothing more it would have been close to perfect.

[Azrile]

Unless you ding 90 just when 5.2 hits and instantly want to join high level progression guilds this wont be a problem

That seems to be the case with him, and it is a problem with a lot of ´but what if´ scenarios.. Basically you are taking a worst case situation and explaining how it will be impossible for you to do endgame raiding as soon as the new raid starts.

I didn´t do any of the pogression that people have done for the past 4 months, but I want to be on equal footing with them to raid the new content...

Yeah sorry.

1. Do LFR of 5.0 stuff
2. Do LFR of 5.2 stuff
3. Do Reps
4. Buy epics from AH

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 11:57 PM ----------

this is the best thing blizzard could do. Its back to the TBC raid style. Where the slackers was stuck on the 1st raid cuz they were lazy and the people who worked for theyr gear progressed true the raids till they hit the last one.

What we have now is about halfway between BC and WOTLK. The big difference now is LFR. The problem with BC was that if you as an individual fell behind by a few tiers, you had to drag your entire guild along to do old content to get you gear. Now, with LFR, if you find yourself 2 tiers behind, all you have to do is LFR to catch up.

I hate to be rude, but all I am hearing from the OP is waaa waa.. I don´t want to do dailies, LFR, buy crafted epics, do pvp... I ONLY want to run 5 mans and be completely caught up.

[Xsy]

incorrect. TBC had excellent crafted gear for many slots at least for casters. You could pretty easily run Kara a few times, pop in some crafted gear and be reasonable in BT. Yes, you had to run some older raids, but that wasn't a huge hassle. What made it a hassle was that there was no badge gear until 2.4 and that the older raids were all 25 man. Newer players couldn't run through 10 man versions of SSC, BT etc to grab gear for Sunwell. After ZA you could do that, but not before.

If TBC had had 10 man versions of all of the raids and nothing more it would have been close to perfect.

Oh but it was. Think about a situation where you had a solid 25men group and you are trying to progress Brutallus for example who was a big dps check. Then, one or two dps quit the game and you are screwed. The pool of sunwell geared recruits is low because if they are good geared, it generally means that they are already in a good guild. You also cannot take a Kara + crafted dps to a fight like Brutallus because every dps counted. In that case you have to recruit a couple of poorly geared dps and run them through BT and Hyjal to have them geared up. If you are a sunwell raiding guild, it probably means you have done BT and Hyjal so many times that just the mention of these places makes you sick. I personally ran BT and Hyjal so many times to gear up new people that I had full T6 gear for my three druid specs. After a while it was hard to force people to run these places again and eventually it caused the guild to fall apart.

It's a whole different case now. Today, you can actually outgear a raid instance without having a guild at all. It has become a lot easier to obtain tier appropriate gear these days without forcing a group you just joined to run the 'old' places trizillion times. And i'm sure Blizzard will make obtaining gear even easier in 5.2 by reducing VP cost, reducing LFR ilvl requirements and perhaps adding more crafted and more VP gear or JP gear. The current model is by light years better than the TBC model, either for hardcore or casual players.

[TCceen]

LFR will always only be for current tier, or did they change that concept? It was always supposed to only be the current tier. If you add several tiers you're going to have waaaay too many things to split Q's between and times will be a few hours or basically pointless (exactly what other methods of random raid finding used to be)

[Azrile]

LFR will always only be for current tier, or did they change that concept? It was always supposed to only be the current tier. If you add several tiers you're going to have waaaay too many things to split Q's between and times will be a few hours or basically pointless (exactly what other methods of random raid finding used to be)

Explain to me why you think queues will be longer for old LFRs? Queues are about proportions, not absolute numbers. 10,000 people queing for something will not give you shorter wait times than 1,000 people. Unless you can show that less healers will be queing as a percentage of the overall people queuing, nothing should change.

I am fairly certain they are not going to remove the 5.0 LFRs.

[Aquamonkey]

Explain to me why you think queues will be longer for old LFRs? Queues are about proportions, not absolute numbers. 10,000 people queing for something will not give you shorter wait times than 1,000 people. Unless you can show that less healers will be queing as a percentage of the overall people queuing, nothing should change.

I am fairly certain they are not going to remove the 5.0 LFRs.

And yet, the queue times are longer on Monday than they are on Tuesday.

[Deleted]

LFR will always only be for current tier, or did they change that concept? It was always supposed to only be the current tier. If you add several tiers you're going to have waaaay too many things to split Q's between and times will be a few hours or basically pointless (exactly what other methods of random raid finding used to be)

people will run t14 LFR on their alts or for a easy VP everytime, trust me. Killing that 3 bosses in MSV is faster and reward more VP then run hc dungeon, not to even mention better loot.

[Deleted]

That seems to be the case with him, and it is a problem with a lot of ´but what if´ scenarios.. Basically you are taking a worst case situation and explaining how it will be impossible for you to do endgame raiding as soon as the new raid starts.

I didn´t do any of the pogression that people have done for the past 4 months, but I want to be on equal footing with them to raid the new content...

Yeah sorry.

1. Do LFR of 5.0 stuff
2. Do LFR of 5.2 stuff
3. Do Reps
4. Buy epics from AH

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 11:57 PM ----------



What we have now is about halfway between BC and WOTLK. The big difference now is LFR. The problem with BC was that if you as an individual fell behind by a few tiers, you had to drag your entire guild along to do old content to get you gear. Now, with LFR, if you find yourself 2 tiers behind, all you have to do is LFR to catch up.

I hate to be rude, but all I am hearing from the OP is waaa waa.. I don´t want to do dailies, LFR, buy crafted epics, do pvp... I ONLY want to run 5 mans and be completely caught up.

Exactly!!!

And if they go back to this model I will be very very sad

It will be back to...

Every Weds morning, log in do DS LFR and then the same 3 5 mans over and over again on my alt.

Clear DS Raids Wed and Thu night on my main.

Log off.

Log back in the Weds after.

Please please can we avoid that at any cost!

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 12:21 AM ----------

And yet, the queue times are longer on Monday than they are on Tuesday.

Because there are less healers (as a % of total people q'ing) q'ing for LFR at the end of the week than the start of the week maybe?

[Aquamonkey]

Because there are less healers (as a % of total people q'ing) q'ing for LFR at the end of the week than the start of the week maybe?

That's exactly my point. Every week as fewer people queue for LFR, the proportion doesn't stay the same. Healers become more rare and the times go up. There's no reason to believe this won't happen for 5.0 LFR when 5.2 comes.

[kamuimac]

No, we get it. Or at least I do. I just don't agree that someone who starts in fresh quest gear should be able to run 5 mans for a weekend or so and be close to as geared as someone who has gained rep, bought VP gear, LFRed and perhaps run normals. Not at this point in the xpac at least.

\.

why ? i ask why ? each expansion is a reset . adding new dungeons with the gear lv lets say 476 or 483 woulf be nowhere nearly close to any reset cause normal raiders will be 500 itlv when 5.2 hits. not talking about HC raiders. nothinging would reset only this would make lvling alts to have any kind of purpose instead lv them up and have the perspective of runing dalies again and again on each char to get behind rep barrier.
I cant undersand why some people are defending so fiercly - tell me with honesty that runing n-all through outdated lfr will be fun and serve any purpose - it wont be fun casue lfr will look like it looked liek in last month of DS - it will be a nigthmare and anyone who went to DS lfr in last few months of its existence knows its truth. it wont server purpose cause guilds instead wait till new recruit will be raid ready (on low/dead populated servers) will starts pickpocketing each another players.
There is no going back to TBC times - playerbase had changed - blizzard tried to do it with difficulty at the begining of cata and it ended up in them loosing few milions subs. People forget how strongly the playerbase was against attenuation and locking out people out of content - everyone says lfr will be there - bs - nobody treats lfr seriously , nobody cares about lfr - its just loot pinata for everyone nothing else.

[wariofan1]

This'll be the last time I'll repeat this, because I'm frankly tired of repeating myself:

New 5-man heroics which replace raids in progression is the ultimate design flaw and is what ultimately kills an expansion. Did you like doing ICC for a year? No? Wouldn't Ulduar have been a refreshing change on an alt? Too bad, it has been replaced by the much easier ToC 5-man heroic. Many people didn't even get to experience Ulduar. Its a design flaw because they outdate raids when they're in their current expansion, thus making only 1 raid matter, and that's where both Wotlk and Cataclysm went wrong, it ultimately cuts the amount of content available to the player. Its also not a good idea to rush players if they want to try current content, they have 3 months to get in and beat it all, and after that their chance ran away and it is no longer current content. If PvE progression happens through raids rather than heroics dungeons the player will be able to go through all the raids by the end of the expansion and experience it all, thus making for more content and more fun. Frankly, dungeons don't make for pleasant experiences after 5+ runs, raids do, and they're only there once a week, while heroics are there every day.

[weakdots]

crafted gear+rep gear+lfr's thats all u need for an alt. There is no reason for u to not run the 5.1 lfrs either to fill in extra pieces.

5man dungeons every raid patch like the dragonsoul patch are terrible.

[Deleted]

That's exactly my point. Every week as fewer people queue for LFR, the proportion doesn't stay the same. Healers become more rare and the times go up. There's no reason to believe this won't happen for 5.0 LFR when 5.2 comes.

It depends.

If they implement the "Pick the role you want your gear to be for" like they have talked about in 5.2 (I for one would go back to qing for MV as healer (my main spec) if that was the case).

Maybe the q's will go down?

Is it maybe a bit to early to try and guess what will happen?

[Azrile]

This'll be the last time I'll repeat this, because I'm frankly tired of repeating myself:

New 5-man heroics which replace raids in progression is the ultimate design flaw and is what ultimately kills an expansion. Did you like doing ICC for a year? No? Wouldn't Ulduar have been a refreshing change on an alt? Too bad, it has been replaced by the much easier ToC 5-man heroic. Many people didn't even get to experience Ulduar. Its a design flaw because they outdate raids when they're in their current expansion, thus making only 1 raid matter, and that's where both Wotlk and Cataclysm went wrong, it ultimately cuts the amount of content available to the player. Its also not a good idea to rush players if they want to try current content, they have 3 months to get in and beat it all, and after that their chance ran away and it is no longer current content. If PvE progression happens through raids rather than heroics dungeons the player will be able to go through all the raids by the end of the expansion and experience it all, thus making for more content and more fun. Frankly, dungeons don't make for pleasant experiences after 5+ runs, raids do, and they're only there once a week, while heroics are there every day.

That is really all it comes down to. Would you rather run LFR for past tiers, or run new heroic dungeons. My opinion is I would rather leave 5-mans behind. Using 2-3 dungeons is terrible

[Saphyron]

snip

Why is there no option to highly value a post. you sir has done it well.

As he said its extremely easy as long you put some kind of effort into it.

Me personally im slacking on my alt he is 482 atm but i have not done any reputation for a long time. havent used coins in 3 weeks now cause i can't be arsed
482 should be enough to tackle the start bosses in 5.2 raid if not you are extremely close.

My main has been seriously unlucky but that is portly my fault due that im gearign dps and healing at the same time so she is only 488 dps and 487 healing.

By the time 5.2 comes out i know ill be ilvl 495 if not 500 on my priest.
Also due take in mind that scenarios atm has a chance to drop 476 epics and high chance of dropping 463 blues atm scenarios in 5.2 might drop 483 or 489 gear.

sorry for rambling I amtired

[clevin]

Oh but it was.

You didn't read anything after the bolded part did you?

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 06:26 PM ----------

why ? i ask why ? each expansion is a reset

Key thing bolded. 5.2 is a patch, not an expansion. Resets should not happen with patches.

The thing that you, OP and others miss is that by letting people run some 5mans 10 or 15 times you completely remove the need to play a patch to gear up. If every patch has a reset where you can run some 5 mans and catch up to the people who've been LFRing and raiding for the last patch then a player is MUCH better off in terms of ilevel/time spent to start a patch, gear in 5 mans, see the raids once in LFR, do regs for a bit if they want and then stop. Why raid the normal modes at all if you can wait a few months and get equivalent gear in far less time from some 5 mans?

As I noted above, this becomes less important late in an xpac and the case for at least some gear in 5 mans then is a better one because the gap is MUCH wider. Without some catchup mechanism then alts and other new max-level toons have no hope of raiding. The 5 mans late in LK and Cata would have been OK if they helped a bit, but between the gear they dropped and the VP/JP gear you could buy you could completely gear out in a week of 5 mans.

An example... my hunter dinged late in LK around midnight on a Thursday (so really very early Friday AM). I played a fair amount that weekend, but not 20 hours a day or anything silly... and she was in 4/5 T9 (the previous raid tier) armor Sunday afternoon. A week later she had an epic bow. A week after that -2 weeks after hitting 80 - she was geared in ICC armor and weapons. From a fresh 80 to ICC geared in 2 weeks is silly. It made me feel foolish for spending time gearing my other toons.

[NightZero88]

This'll be the last time I'll repeat this, because I'm frankly tired of repeating myself:

New 5-man heroics which replace raids in progression is the ultimate design flaw and is what ultimately kills an expansion. Did you like doing ICC for a year? No? Wouldn't Ulduar have been a refreshing change on an alt? Too bad, it has been replaced by the much easier ToC 5-man heroic. Many people didn't even get to experience Ulduar.

This will be the last time I repeat this since clearly you don't understand this simple concept. Nobody is saying to have the dungeons give better gear then the raids. We are saying have them drop 476 level gear. THAT IS LESS THAN LFR OF THIS TIER. I capitalized and bolded it so maybe it will sink in. This would make it so that even with a FULL SET you still would NOT be able to get into ToT without doing the raids or upgrading gear.

Its a design flaw because they outdate raids when they're in their current expansion, thus making only 1 raid matter, and that's where both Wotlk and Cataclysm went wrong, it ultimately cuts the amount of content available to the player.

And seriously, how does giving raids AND heroics cut content? More options means less content? Really? I don't even know what to say about this.

Frankly, dungeons don't make for pleasant experiences after 5+ runs, raids do, and they're only there once a week, while heroics are there every day.

I'm sorry, you don't speak for me. I think doing a raid every week for 6 months is boring as hell at the end. And I sure as hell would rather run a heroic to gear up an alt that was BRAND NEW then run the same old raid I've run for the past 6 months.

As I noted above, this becomes less important late in an xpac and the case for at least some gear in 5 mans then is a better one because the gap is MUCH wider. Without some catchup mechanism then alts and other new max-level toons have no hope of raiding. The 5 mans late in LK and Cata would have been OK if they helped a bit, but between the gear they dropped and the VP/JP gear you could buy you could completely gear out in a week of 5 mans.

An example... my hunter dinged late in LK around midnight on a Thursday (so really very early Friday AM). I played a fair amount that weekend, but not 20 hours a day or anything silly... and she was in 4/5 T9 (the previous raid tier) armor Sunday afternoon. A week later she had an epic bow. A week after that -2 weeks after hitting 80 - she was geared in ICC armor and weapons. From a fresh 80 to ICC geared in 2 weeks is silly. It made me feel foolish for spending time gearing my other toons.

And what is wrong with this if the tier you're talking about is OVER and we're onto a NEW tier with NEW raids? You're forcing people to run old raids just because you don't want new heroics.

[Deleted]

And seriously, how does giving raids AND heroics cut content? More options means less content? Really? I don't even know what to say about this.

I'm sorry, you don't speak for me. I think doing a raid every week for 6 months is boring as hell at the end. And I sure as hell would rather run a heroic to gear up an alt that was BRAND NEW then run the same old raid I've run for the past 6 months.

And what is wrong with this if the tier you're talking about is OVER and we're onto a NEW tier with NEW raids? You're forcing people to run old raids just because you don't want new heroics.

We don't mind having new heroics they can add as many as they want.

We mind running heroics being the way you get everything, when this happens everything else becomes obsolete this is 100% what I (and others in this thread) want to avoid.

If you run heroics and you the skies open up and epics rain down AND you get rep AND you get Valor (which is what you want) then everyone will run those 5 mans that is all that will happen. It is about keeping as much content relevant and rewarding as possible, this is why what you want "cuts content".

We 100% want to avoid the problem with Cata where all we did for months and months (outside of raiding with our guilds) was run 3 CoT Heroics and DS LFR this is proof that what you want "cuts content".

The main thing to do outside of raiding is gaining Valor, Gear and Rep.

There should be many avenues for earning all of these and right now there is apart from rep and we know they are working on making rep available from other avenues, the amount of things you can do over an expansion should increase as more content is released not decrease like it did in Cata.

Let me be 100% clear as well.

I would not mind if they added some nice drops from a new 5 man, say a nice Trinket or a weapon like they did when ToC opened).

I would not mind if they added new crafted gear (blues and epics) and I am sure they will.

I would not mind if they upped the level of gear from the scenarios drops (470 blues or something?).

Its all to do with keeping stuff relevant and rewarding.

Making 5 mans the main source of gear is terrible design as it makes everything else obsolete.

If you make it possible that every time a new raid is released in 2hrs you can be fully kitted out and ready to hit the new LFR why would anyone that was only doing LFR stay subbed when they can unsub come back when the next patch comes and in 2hrs be running LFR for the next raid as well?

[Veyne]

That assumes that people have the reputation to buy them (unless it was really low) and also JP are really slow to gain as well as valor gear only covering a limited amount of slots.

In actuality, JP isn't really slow to gain, just nowhere near as ridiculously quick as it was in post 4.3 Cataclysm. I've always been fond of the point/badge system for my alts, but that was just ridiculous.

Either way, for you, personally, if your raid guild is reforming, chances are, more than just you needs better gear. You'll get it taken care of.

As for everyone else, that's the consequence of their decision, really. It's kind of like not taking Calculus before you take Calculus-based Physics, going into the class with only Linear Algebra knowledge. You're going to have to put in some effort to be successful in Physics, even if it means taking time to learn Calculus on your own when everyone in your class has already taken Calculus.

[Komati]

They will certanly add more ways to boost your iLv.

- Valor Points
- Quest rewards.
- New PvP season
- New world boss (Like VoA and that prison thing in Cata)
- New BoW items, and crafting recipies, will make the current ones cheaper, if you can't afford them now.
- More sources I forgot to mention.