I think that this is a good idea and as a person who has had to take 5-6 month long breaks in almost every expansion due to school and other real life related things, I totally support it.
For example back in cata, I started to play right before Firelands, after a long break and zandalari dungeons and molten front quest rewards really helped me to get back into raiding. I like doing dungeons, so I had every possible upgrade in like 2-3 days I think. On the other hand, MoP is mainly focused on grinding dailies, which I dont really like, because it forces you to play solo most of the time. I would much rather run dungeons and get reputation (even if its greatly reduced) and maybe bosses could have a small chance to also drop Lesser Charms of Good Fortune.
Overall I think that MoP is quite good expansion, although I don't quite understand why Blizzard is pushing us towards solo content so much.
Here's the thing... if you've already run through the previous tier you will have the gear for the current tier and thus not need to 5mans to gear. If you haven't run the previous tier then why do you object? it's new content to you. What I don't think is good game design is putting raid level gear in 5 mans that take 30 minutes.
The issue with your stance is that it makes only the current content interesting. People have zero reason to run previous tier raids... so we have people bitching about the lack of content when the design they wanted made all of the other raids aside from the new one useless.
Now, here's another thought. You say (maybe not you specifically, not sure) that you don't want new heroics to be released because you don't want people to get easy epics that allow them to jump into raiding. However, you also propose that the current VP gear will get knocked down to JP gear. Now, please tell me, what is the difference between farming heroics for 3 days straight to get enough JP to buy all the current VP gear and jumping into heroics or running new heroics and getting them that way? Either way I'm still farming the hell out of heroics, it's just different heroics. And it will certainly be easier and less time consuming to farm the heroics for JP to buy gear than to pray to the RNG Gods to give you a full set from LFR. Also, I assume that this tiers LFR will be absolutely terrible next tier if DS was any indication of things to come.
Pick the game back up now, because 5.2 won't be out till probably may (3-4 months of testing starting in Jan). That should give you ample time to rep and gear up for that.
If you and your guild are willing to put time into getting the gear, then you're going to be able to experience the content, so get crackin!
If you make new 5 mans that are far far more rewarding than anything else (raining Epics, Rep and Valor) then everyone will do just those, all the existing content will be dead.
I would be more than happy if they added new 5 mans.
As I have said before they could add some loot (trinkets for everyone, nice weapons maybe) but it just can't be to rewarding.
They can add an option (like the did in WotLK and Cata) to select which 5 mans you could run so if you wanted you could just run the new 5 mans you could, as long as the new 5 mans are not to rewarding
Did you ever try to q for the 4.0 5 mans at the end of Cata? It was a nightmare the content was harder and you got scrubs in PvP gear cheating iLvl, this meant that for 9 months we did nothing but the same 3 5 mans over and over and over again I would much rather two or three times a week q up for a 5 man and get a random dungeon out of a pool of 14 not 3.
I would also be happy if they upped the drop rate of the 4.0 LFRs as well (this would encourage people to go), I am very interested to see how they nerf 4.0 raids as well (they might even nerf LFR).
Making 5 mans to rewarding makes all other content obsolete and we end up doing 2 (4.1) or 3 (4.3) heroics over and over and over again for months and months.
There are loads and loads of options that Blizzard can implement without making old content obsolete you don't have to run it if you don't want to but why would you want to remove the option from people that do?
Can you really not see why people have a problem with that?
When I need to earn my valor I want variety I do not want to do the same thing over and over again.
This is terrible design.
People are coming up with very good options for people catching up on gear in this thread.
But all I hear from you is "I want to run 5 mans, and I want them to give me everything, and I want it NOW."
I'm not saying make the 5 mans too rewarding, I'm saying they should drop ilevel 476 gear which would get you close to the needed 480 (assuming its 480) and would allow you to hope for some good RNG so you don't have to run quite so many heroics to get JP/VP to buy gear. It gives more options. You can still run LFR which is better gear, you can still run normals with pugs. The only thing in fact it would do is stop you from running the old heroics out there now. So yes, you're right, it would drop the number of current heroics out there depending on how many they made. Or, hell, up the ilevel of the current heroics to 476 and I'd be happy too. Either way it amounts to the same thing. New heroics or old, I don't care but the ilevel should be 476. At 463 the ONLY reason people will run them is for valor and JP which they'd then use to buy gear.
I think you're still misunderstanding me to an extent though. I'm not saying make 3 new heroics that offer 500 ilevel gear so people only run those like the ZA heroics. All I'm saying is that if they keep the current 463 ilevel heroic gear and ToT is 480, the only reason people will run current heroics is to farm out JP to buy the current valor gear (assuming they lower valor gear to JP gear). With new heroics giving 476 or old heroics being upped in level to 476 then you could at least have a chance of filling out some slots without having to BUY the whole set. And you could still run LFR because it's gear is still better.
Note: What I want is heroics to allow me to get rep up to or lower than the amount I can get from dailies each day (so it's fair). I just want something else to do besides dailies. I want another way to get coins because again, I hate dailies. And I think new players or people who want to play alts should have a way to gear up without being forced into trying to run LFR/last tier's raids because it will be horrible. I liked ZA gearing because it allowed any of my raiders to change specs/toons if they wanted and was a fresh start and a lot of them took it. I have 10 raiders that are my full time roster with 1 extra and that's all I've got so having to regear is a long process for us and we can't just sub in fully geared alts like the big guilds on the big servers. If people don't show up for a night we don't raid and we've lost some people and replaced them. Having an easy way to gear them up so they can jump into raids with us really helps us. Now, IF VP gear becomes JP gear then it exists. It'll take a lot more grinding but you'd still be able to raid gear someone in a few days provided you spam heroics with them and that's really all I'm asking for.
Last edited by NightZero88; 2012-12-30 at 02:23 AM.
really sucks how disappointing this is
So you want to tell me now that that person dinged 90 lvl EXACTLY that day when new tier comes ? or few days later ? Why didnt he dinged 1-2 weeks BEFORE new tier ? Thats first thing
Second - if his friends asked him to return - there is no way that they wouldnt help to gear him up even in older (not only MV but HOF, TES specially) content.
And now at least we heared the true reason why you want that change.And it will certainly be easier and less time consuming
As it was wroted few times already - you SHOULDNT get all bis items in 2-3 days.
and you do realize that adding new 5 men HC wont change that ?Note: What I want is heroics to allow me to get rep up to or lower than the amount I can get from dailies each day (so it's fair). I just want something else to do besides dailies. I want another way to get coins because again, I hate dailies
YES YOU MUST ALSO FARM VP, FARM REPUTATION TO BE ABLE TO RAID. You must put some effort. Again - as i wroted in my first post, you just want to get all gear in 2-3 days. No its no good.Ok, I'll state this again. New 5 mans dropping ilevel 476 gear. First, it's under the current LFR gear, current valor gear and normal gear. The only thing it is above is the current heroic level gear. Now, I think we're all assuming that ToT LFR will be ilevel 480 as that would match the current system (460-->470). If there are no new heroics which award gear, you're 463 ilevel gear you get from the current heroics will be useless as it is so low it won't get you anywhere near the 480 requirement. Due to this your only options are running them anyway to get JP/VP, running LFR and praying or hoping some groups are still running the old raids. You've already seen my reasoning behind the fact only the bad players will be running LFR so that will be an absolute nightmare (as I've said many times, see DS for how bad this will be). Additionally I doubt any guild group will be running the old raids so you're forced into hoping after the nerfs that people will run pug normals (which is possible and likely).
And oce again about another thing: gear is not important when you want to join guild, if any guild actually invited you already - you dont need to worry about gearing up.
just read what one "blizzard blue" wrotes:
Many players believe that they are on par with the skill level of players further ahead than them, and that the only thing separating them from players with more progression is just gear. More often than not, the issue lies on the skill side, either your group is not really making the most of their dps rotations, cooldown usage is not being proper, etcetera, or it may very well be that your group is still undergeared for that fight (as long as everyone is decked in blue heroic gear, you'll be fine).
and remember that.
If you're coming back (i.e haven't done any raiding this tier) how exactly is the 5.0 content Old to you (apart from the whole when it was released thing). You've never done it, so it will be new to you, and it will be a challenge.
I seriously doubt you will be aiming for world firsts so theres no reason why spending some time in the raids everyone else had to do for a few months will hurt you.
It may even prolong your enjoyment of the game, you have twice as much content to address in the same amount of time so if the 5.2 content is insanely easy you won't have a "DragonSoulesque" experience where you're monotonously running the same content week in week out after having cleared it a few weeks after patch.
Everyone screams for the game to go back to the way it was in Vanilla (whether thats a good or bad thing is arguable) yet when they actually do something they had in vanilla people hate it, go figure. You wouldn't dream of doing BWL/Naxx without having done MC back in the day.
People are getting too used to hard resets each patch and take it as something natural. There is no problem with monolithic system of progression except one big problem.
PvE system of raid rewards is based purely on RNG lottery. Let's say we have tier 16 now, which can't be done with dungeon gear. Let's say some guild starts doing tier 14, and only one person manages to get geared. As gearing process takes ages, that person with high chance of happening can just leave guild to move to more progressed and geared one. Tier 14 guild is left where it was - at point 1 without any progress (or even falling back). So they keep gearing random people for other guilds, meanwhile staying at same place without any progress as group.
That's how it was happening in TBC. That's why we got badges, and later emblems. But they still don't solve major issue - lottery system of raid rewards. If some person can kill raid boss (and trash), he should be able to get any drop from that boss/trash (a lot of trash drops are not less important than boss' drops), maybe not after 1 or 2 kills, but it should be preset amount of kills (based on raid-specific currency/quests, whatever) and not being purely based on double dices, where first dice - if gear drops, second dice (modified by DKP, EPGP, whatever) - if he wins it. This way raid group can progress as a whole predictably, and not being subject to "ehh another raid dropped only cloth, and another mage just left".
RNG system of rewards in monolithic progression promotes guild-hopping if you became lucky and got what you needed from such-and-such tier, thus lucky people unite, unlucky people keep grinding same raid for ages. "Yay we finally geared our tank to not get 2-shotted by Morogrim, oh but we lost dps to be able to kill stuff in time - back to Karazhan!", "Oh, tank didn't want to wait when lottery will gear out new dps, so he left to other guild, we need to gear out new tank!", "Oh our healer lost patience seeing that new tank can't be geared in cloth as nothing else drops from raids, so he left to other guild, we need to find new healer.."
There is no sign that developers really see the problem. It is not only group problem, it is also individual problem, as it is quite demotivational to rely exclusively on lottery.
i'd like to see blizzards response to this. "Well, would you rather a huge, Ulduar type raid even if it's not creatively different just a ripoff, or would you rather new 5 man dungeons?"
OP, please understand that not all casuals want to raid 'properly'. That is why they are casuals. Doing LFR lets us see end content and maybe get some nice gear that makes quests a teeny bit easier. For the majority of players current raids do not count, just not interested in them.
If this new raid is as challenging as I hope, I can still see guilds returning to MSV/HoF/ToES long into this patch.
Join those raids and get your gear.
Normal modes should be just about puggable a few weeks into the patch as well if your realm isn't too sleepy.
This structure is fine, and anyone with full heroic blue gear can still do their utmost and come off looking good to a raid. I've proven that to myself and I don't need anyone else moaning that gear is the answer to fixing your problems with dps/healing (tanks might benefit from a few purples but nothing that cannot be obtained)
I had to go through this when I returned after a break once and y'know what, It wasn't that painful. 2 weeks of running things and I had a few purples to catch up my friends. I was still hideously under-geared compared to them and had to work extra hard, but I still kept up and kept my worth.
Blizzard seems to be taking the lazy approach of building scenarios instead of dungeons. Extremely disappointing but they are lazy as hell and it really shouldn't be a surprise, looking back I should've realized this would happen when scenarios were announced.
Woo scenarios, go in, spam aoe for 10 minutes, get a few vp and jp and never go back into the scenario. So much fun.
You say you want to get rep from 5 mans to make it fair.
OK someone spends 20 mins doing dailies gets Valor and Rep.
Someone spends 20 mins doing a 5 man gets Gear, Valor and Rep?
And that to you is fair? To add to that you can't do 16 dailies in 20 mins so doing daily 5 man is already more rewarding than dailies.
I would be more than happy (and they are) if they added more ways of getting stuff (rep in particular).
I would be more than happy if they added some nicer gear to 5 mans (like in ToC) but not raining epics like the 4.3 heroics.
I am 100% against 5 mans been the best way of getting everything all this means is no one ever does anything else and eventually causes massive burn out.
I will also 100% agree they went "to far" with the Daily model at the start of MoP and they are reeling that in a bit, 5.1 dailies are a much more sensible amount as you get rep from all the storyline parts as well.
In 5.2 I fell they will reel the rep requirements in even more (or maybe even remove some of them completely).
You have also said your method "cuts content" how is this good for the long term game? As the expansion grows I want my content set to grow not shrink.
Anyways I think I have wasted enough energy trying to explain why "Spam 2 or 3 5 mans and get everything in the game is terrible design". We are never going to agree. I am really really trying to promote other ideas for people to catch up gear and the only thing you want is "give me everything from 5 mans now".
I just ./pray Blizzard does not got back to the horrible horrible Cata model.
This horrible horrible cata model showed how much interest people have in doing old content. People dont wont to do old content and no matter how long ull be chanting "but i had to do it why they dont have to blizz ur so unfair" they dont wont to. They would much rather spend time on clearing 2-3 bosses in new raid then clearing whole 16 bosses of old content. Why ? cause most people are loot junkies and when they see gear with superior itlv they dont want to do anything that drops worse gear. I seriusly must be playing different game then some people cause i havent met one person yet who like such model.
U say this model we have now is better for guilds - i have my main on high populated server on which raiding isnt problematic - but i also have my old char on low populated server and becausei have friends there i riad with them from time to time - u say cata model was so bad - in DS at least there were multiple guilds going into raid and having fun there. Now on dead horde side on which i play there are 3 guilds which have cleared MV on normal - and none of those guilds have cleared HoF normal yet - why ? cause all good players have transfered away in Cata - recruititng there is a nigthmare - its not that stealing players from other guilds is an option - u have to do it to get someone valuable in your raid team . Now on such dead realm it will be only worse.
Im sure some people live in world where there are only rainbows but the reality is this model will force anyone who wants any progress to do to transfer of to more populated server
It is just sad for me that some people have such "armory others" mania - and are contantly whining about how people want welfare epics - why do u care what other people gear have ? u have ur guild to worry about why u worry so much about others ? The is pure greed talking - i have it and i dont want anywant else to get it too.
1. You didnt wrote why "cata" raids model is making low populated servers dying
2. You didnt wrote how "ulduar" raids model would make to change it
Thats about different raid models.
Now - about "greed talking - i have it and i dont want anyone else to get it too" - its so silly and stupid that im embarrased i must clear it to you .
First of all - what game your playing ? Its not FFS its not RTS, its not any other - its just MMORPG - ROLE PLAYING GAME. Shall i tell you that making your char "progress" is one of the main goal in RPG ? No ? You already know that ? Thats great.
Now please tell me why you want to force me to play in a silly RPG game where you have BiS gear in 2-3 days after i started playing ? Did you ever played any RPG game ? How you would feel if you would be able to get bext gear in game in first "noob zone" ? Really i must tell you that ?
Why you are writing ONLY about gear ? Why you didnt write anything about letting noobs to kill last boss HC in 2-3 days ? Why you didnt write anything about letting noobs to get best pvp ranking ? Why you wrote only about PvE gear ? Why theres nothing about PvP one ? Why theres nothing about mounts ? Why theres nothing about titles ? Why theres nothing about achivements ? Why theres nothing about pets ? etc. Those things are at the same line.
Now lets think WHY the hell ppl would like to be able to get all best items without ANY effort:
1) only for the look - but hey - atm almost all gear have few versions, theres really not much items nowadays that have their own uniqe model. You have 3 version of each raid items you have 4 version of pvp tiers.
2) for the epeen - do you realize that ppl actually wants them now ONLY becouse its "so hard" to get it ? The are not raiding, they are not pvping, so they simply dont need them "for progress" - since they are not doing ANY PROGRESS AT ALL. They are even not interested in progress. So they want it cos they dont have it, cos its hard to get it. If it would be so easy to get that everyone could actualy wear it - it would change for "only for the look".
Also - its false when your writing that they CANT get it. They can - it will only take some time. Time they need to spend to farm it or time they need to wait for new tiers.
Woah, woah, woah. Whiner post. Are you fucking kidding me? Look at Cataclysm: 4.3., everybody farm DS, and over 70% of DS raiders enver even seen FL or BWD, BoT, T4W. What the fuck? Thats the shit you want!
Don't you fucking understand that ierarchyu of raids is working now? THis will be absolutely awesome just as was 3.1. with Ulduar!
People will still have to run t14 raids, and after you getgood gear after certain amount of time, you finally gain access to new raid!
The best thing is you have to work to get to something new, not get everything at start. Stop whining your shit!