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  1. #341
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Depending on what the iLevel is of the ToT LFR gear, they could tune normal ToT for being around the iLevel of normal HoF/TES, and not provide easy JP gear, so there is artificial gating: You need to be geared in a mix of T14 raid gear and T15 LFR gear to be able to have any success in T15 (i.e. only T15 LFR gear won't cut it alone)
    NOBLESHIELD
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  2. #342
    You'll have LFR to gear up, valor rewards, current valor rewards will probably be downgraded to justice (?), if not, normal mode should be enough to carry a decent player with blue heroic gear and some epics

  3. #343
    Herald of the Titans Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droodeffekt View Post
    Using this method, grinding the JP and VP as well as relying on LFR will still probably exclude you from a decent ilvl by the start of patch 5.2, once again the problem continues. I will continue to say this, as it is being looked past but giving people the chance to participate at the start of a patch isn't giving them the "easy way out" as for the players who are serious this patch, you will still have huge advantages, it is just about giving people a chance to be decent and not have to be stuck in old content whilst friends and people talk about all the new things. This is about being fair to both sides e.g. Not having the 5 man dungeon gear being obsolete but not making people rely on LFR and nerfed old content before they can have a shot at the new stuff.
    They aren't nerfing t14
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  4. #344
    Here are some GC tweets today on this very subject

    GC: I said we tend to see players give up when their accomplishments are too easily outdated.

    Player: You seriously want players to have to grind 5.0 content before running 5.2?
    GC: Is it fair to players who played in 5.0 if they aren't ahead of those who did not? (I don't think we ever said "grind.")

    Clearly, they have the mindset that the system in Wrath and Cata that basically gave anyone coming back to the game a raid ready toon with a few evenings of heroic runs did more harm to the game than good and they are moving away from that. Personally, I applaud it.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Here are some GC tweets today on this very subject

    GC: I said we tend to see players give up when their accomplishments are too easily outdated.

    Player: You seriously want players to have to grind 5.0 content before running 5.2?
    GC: Is it fair to players who played in 5.0 if they aren't ahead of those who did not? (I don't think we ever said "grind.")

    Clearly, they have the mindset that the system in Wrath and Cata that basically gave anyone coming back to the game a raid ready toon with a few evenings of heroic runs did more harm to the game than good and they are moving away from that. Personally, I applaud it.
    I would bet anyday that the raiding population (excluding B.S. L.F.R) has been decimated since WOTLK.
    I'm quite sure this 5.2 change won't help.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    They aren't nerfing t14
    The most recent post regarding nerfing T14 is, that they're nerfing it with 5.2. Probably by enabling the raidwide debuffs.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  7. #347
    I for one am glad they are not adding 5 mans. I personally loved back in BC when my server had guilds doing every tier, progressing their way up to the final tier. Maybe this will help bring that back a little bit. I don't think that people coming into this expac in 5.2 should be able to skip all work required by people currently raiding.

    I do however think something needs to be done for alts. But that's an entirely different subject and fix.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    GC: I said we tend to see players give up when their accomplishments are too easily outdated.
    ...
    Personally, I applaud it.
    The only problem I have with that, is what does it say about those people ? I mean, it just seems a shame that people aren't happy just playing the game. Before all these achievements and awards, people played games because they were fun. Original Doom, Quake, Counter-Strike, Battlefield 1942, many others. People played for just as many hours as WoW. We didn't have achievements or in game titles to say "look at me" We played because the games were fun.

    Now look at us. Jonny got the axe I grinded for 4 months in 2 weeks. That sucks I'm quitting the game! Does it matter if I enjoyed my 4 months of play time ? Nope! It only matters that I have something they don't! I mean people quit playing\trying because they can't feel special over some random person they don't know ? I'm not sure that a healthy mindset.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-01-08 at 03:48 PM.

  9. #349
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    Man if you skipped one tier, why you should be able to instant catch others? you can easily run lfr for few weeks to get gear and buy it, if you are in hurry. It seems that you started playing after tbc.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    Now look at us. Jonny got the axe I grinded for 4 months in 2 weeks. That sucks I'm quitting the game! Does it matter if I enjoyed my 4 months of play time ? Nope! It only matters that I have something they don't! I mean people quit playing\trying because they can't feel special over some random person they don't know ? I'm not sure that a healthy mindset.
    It's like going to the olympics winning a gold medal, and then 6 months later they decided to give everyone who competed at the olympics a gold medal. It's going to get those people who worked hard to be gold medalists a little upset now isn't it?

  11. #351
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runewrath View Post
    I for one am glad they are not adding 5 mans. I personally loved back in BC when my server had guilds doing every tier, progressing their way up to the final tier. Maybe this will help bring that back a little bit. I don't think that people coming into this expac in 5.2 should be able to skip all work required by people currently raiding.

    I do however think something needs to be done for alts. But that's an entirely different subject and fix.
    Well the heirloom upgrades, valor changes coming, and reputation changes are pretty friendly i'd say.

    Nevermind you have 4 world bosses they are going to make frequent spawns and 9 LFR wings. Yeah gearing up an alt is Soooooooooooooooo hard.

    I fail to understand players OCD need to "gear alts" There are only 2 reasons to gear an alt atall that should make you upset when it's slow.

    It makes 0 sense why do you need the gear on the alt? Is it doing Heroic raiding to finish the zone for the guild? Or is it just farming normal to gear it because.... well there honestly is no reason to gear it that is pretty much it. Yes "FUN" could be an answer but when ppl are crying and flailing about their alts gear I doubt they are having fun that is some other problem entirely.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-01-08 at 04:30 PM.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Runewrath View Post
    It's like going to the olympics winning a gold medal, and then 6 months later they decided to give everyone who competed at the olympics a gold medal. It's going to get those people who worked hard to be gold medalists a little upset now isn't it?
    But that's an apple's to orange comparison. First, we're talking about a video game, people play for relaxation, enjoyment, to kill time, to hang out. "Competing" in the olympics is a actual event. People competing in that event, aren't there for relaxation and just killing time. In many cases, like Track and field that's pretty much their career.

    But using your analogy, We're not talking about competing at the Olympics. We're talking about a bunch of random people out running around on a track. Maybe racing each other, maybe racing against their wrist watch. "SOME" of the complaints isn't even that Blizzard handed out Gold medals 6 months later and nobody see it's because the Olympics are over. It's that these "commoners" were allowed to run on the same tracks that the Olympic Athletes ran on, without Earning that right.

    But that is still completely missing my point. We're talking about playing a game for the sake of playing games because we simply enjoy playing the game. Why do we need all these titles, mounts, special weapons colors (all of which I'm fine with) but more importantly, why do players "give up" when they can't be special for longer periods of time ? It's that particular attitude\mindset that I find most interesting.

  13. #353
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    But that's an apple's to orange comparison. First, we're talking about a video game, people play for relaxation, enjoyment, to kill time, to hang out. "Competing" in the olympics is a actual event. People competing in that event, aren't there for relaxation and just killing time. In many cases, like Track and field that's pretty much their career.

    But using your analogy, We're not talking about competing at the Olympics. We're talking about a bunch of random people out running around on a track. Maybe racing each other, maybe racing against their wrist watch. "SOME" of the complaints isn't even that Blizzard handed out Gold medals 6 months later and nobody see it's because the Olympics are over. It's that these "commoners" were allowed to run on the same tracks that the Olympic Athletes ran on, without Earning that right.

    But that is still completely missing my point. We're talking about playing a game for the sake of playing games because we simply enjoy playing the game. Why do we need all these titles, mounts, special weapons colors (all of which I'm fine with) but more importantly, why do players "give up" when they can't be special for longer periods of time ? It's that particular attitude\mindset that I find most interesting.
    Some people play sports for fun and certainly competitive. Some people do play video games competitively. There is no difference other then some social barriers and stigma that has developed in society. Remember 10 years ago when anyone on a computer was considered a nerd and now everyone has an Iphone and computer even though they 95% knows nothing about them. That barrier is gone. Facebook is a great example of these barriers and social stigmas dissappearing.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-01-08 at 04:34 PM.

  14. #354
    dont scenario's reward epic quality rewards from there bags randomly also in 5.2?

  15. #355
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhunter View Post
    dont scenario's reward epic quality rewards from there bags randomly also in 5.2?
    they do it now.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I fail to understand players OCD need to "gear alts" There are only 2 reasons to gear an alt atall that should make you upset when it's slow.
    I meant mostly for heroic raiders to have options to bring something else, especially if their alt contributes far more than their main.

  17. #357
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runewrath View Post
    I meant mostly for heroic raiders to have options to bring something else, especially if their alt contributes far more than their main.
    That certainly happens but far less often if you have a players capable of healing/dps/tanking as duel spec. Our Shadow priests pretty much can all heal as good as anyone on the roster. Plate dps/WW monk are capable at tanking.

    Very few occasions alts NEED an appearance outside bullshit fights <Spine> or highly gimmic fights like subs on VnTH. World/Region1st raiding may heavily use alts since they do split raids/ raid alot but thats only like 5/6 in the US 25s not sure about EU/TW/KR but yeah. Alts aren't a neccesity.

    I'm appauled at some players that have a max level of every class and feel the need to gear them all. What is the purpose if any in that?

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I'm appauled at some players that have a max level of every class and feel the need to gear them all. What is the purpose if any in that?
    Brawlers guild!

    In my world, there is no such a thing as an ALT. I really hate being limited to playing 1 class\spec. I can join a game of Battlefield and be a Tanker, Jet pilot, Medic, Anti-tank, Sniper, Spotter whatever. In WOW, you have to pick just one and that's all you should ever want to play ? Why do I want to play a Shaman in greens ? I want to play a Shaman at it's most powerful state. I want to play a DK at max power. Fortunately for me, LFR does do well enough to satisfy my need to play various alts in a raid enviroment. If I had my druthers, I'd be able to run normal mode raids instead. But that's not really a option on servers with slow progression and of course the time sink

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Some people play sports for fun and certainly competitive. Some people do play video games competitively. There is no difference other then some social barriers and stigma that has developed in society.
    But apparently there is a difference. I use to play lot of basketball in my youth and I played in competitive circles. Never did anyone quit playing because someone else got to play on the same court as Michael Jordon. Should Anthony Davis quit playing basketball, because someone else was drafted to New Orleans in 8th round, because somehow that diminished him from being picked #1. If playing is what you love, then what others do and don't get later shouldn't matter. It seems that people are less about doing what they love and more about obtaining that "something" to make them feel special. And I still think that is not a healthy mindset.
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-01-08 at 05:22 PM.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    And I still think that is not a healthy mindset.
    Like you said, it's a video game. It's how video games are setup to work. You can't sit around watching your friend beat Mario for the first time, then when you want to play just say "Hey, can I just start at [insert level]?". No, you can't, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PLAY THE GAME.


    By having a "catch up" built into the game, you're essentially telling your players they don't have to play your game the way it was intended, and that they're free to 'skip ahead' (trying to not use the word "cheat" here, but in many games skipping levels or skipping ahead was cheating)

  20. #360
    High Overlord kennyisnotdead's Avatar
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    Why don't they just lift the weekly lockout on lower ilvl raids when new content is released? ZG, ZA were always on a twice a week reset. Don't see any harm at letting the new people run stuff more if they want to catch up quicker.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 04:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I fail to understand players OCD need to "gear alts" There are only 2 reasons to gear an alt atall that should make you upset when it's slow.

    It makes 0 sense why do you need the gear on the alt? Is it doing Heroic raiding to finish the zone for the guild? Or is it just farming normal to gear it because.... well there honestly is no reason to gear it that is pretty much it. Yes "FUN" could be an answer but when ppl are crying and flailing about their alts gear I doubt they are having fun that is some other problem entirely.
    Some people don't single their play style to one class. the poster child raider in most guilds of course usually has a main. But LFR has given the players who enjoy the full range of classes and option to play in new content only available to them by LFR. Going in killing a boss, going back in later to finish is awesome flexibility for people.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 04:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubalicious View Post
    Like you said, it's a video game. It's how video games are setup to work. You can't sit around watching your friend beat Mario for the first time, then when you want to play just say "Hey, can I just start at [insert level]?". No, you can't, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PLAY THE GAME.


    By having a "catch up" built into the game, you're essentially telling your players they don't have to play your game the way it was intended, and that they're free to 'skip ahead' (trying to not use the word "cheat" here, but in many games skipping levels or skipping ahead was cheating)
    Not the best example but I get your point. Mario wasn't based on a gear score. You beat levels based on skill and moved on. With LFR you are faced with an RNG each week that determines if you get an upgrade. 30g doesn't help anything. it should be 30 extra valor or something that helps you acquire an appropriate ilvl in a couple weeks time if you dont any rng drops.

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