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  1. #21
    Some people here seem to be missing the point a little here.

    I am asking for 5 man dungeons to be a way to get you within a reasonable margin for the new patch to start a fresh. Saying things such as "why should you because other raiders put in solid effort to get where they are" is sort of illogical as I am asking for reasonable gear, not asking for gear to wipe out everything a normal raider has worked for. Even with my proposed idea, someone who has been raiding will still be more geared, potentially a lot more geared, and therefore will still maintain an advantage for their efforts without punishing people who for whatever reason have not been raiding prior.

  2. #22
    The Patient Vanchak's Avatar
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    Just 1 thing, you use Firelands as an example a few times, The troll dungeons were added a patch before Firelands and were not for catching up gear wise for Firelands, the ilvl of loot there was 353, lower than the tier 11 normal gear, much like how the lfr gear is lower than Normal mode gear now.

    Valor gear will also be changed to Justice points most likely, Sure I also read somewhere about the way we earn Justice being changed, then there's also a new world boss/'s?

    Then there's the whole legendary quest line design that doesn't want to make previous tier's obsolete each patch, if you want to re roll then sure, but your going to want to do previous tier stuff first for a couple of weeks to get the quests out the way so you'll have a chance at the legendary in the last tier.

  3. #23
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droodeffekt View Post
    That assumes that people have the reputation to buy them (unless it was really low) and also JP are really slow to gain as well as valor gear only covering a limited amount of slots.
    JP gear has no rep requirement. I expect it to stay the same. Also next patch you will get extra JP when you have capped VP. VP gear also covers every slot except for weapons.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanchak View Post
    Just 1 thing, you use Firelands as an example a few times, The troll dungeons were added a patch before Firelands and were not for catching up gear wise for Firelands, the ilvl of loot there was 353, lower than the tier 11 normal gear, much like how the lfr gear is lower than Normal mode gear now.

    Valor gear will also be changed to Justice points most likely, Sure I also read somewhere about the way we earn Justice being changed, then there's also a new world boss/'s?

    Then there's the whole legendary quest line design that doesn't want to make previous tier's obsolete each patch, if you want to re roll then sure, but your going to want to do previous tier stuff first for a couple of weeks to get the quests out the way so you'll have a chance at the legendary in the last tier.
    The main difference between currently LFR and 5 mans, is the fact LFR is once per week and has horrible RNG for some. I don't mind the ilvl gear of LFR, just not the length it takes someone to catch up to an appropriate level to which the new normal mode raid will most probably demand.

    World bosses will be great, but I doubt with current Sha drop rates, they wont add too much for the average players.

    People will still probably choose to go back to the old content as I said the gear I woudl expect from 5 man dungeons would still be lower than old raids, but just would make sure the gap isnt really large for people wanting to have a decent crack in 5.2.

  5. #25
    High Overlord Vexxie's Avatar
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    May I suggest that you look into Openraid when 5.2 hits, it seems fit for your purpose. Do not go into 5.2 expecting to go straight into the new raid, it shouldn't have ever been like that in the first place. Even though it used to work like that, Blizzard clearly want to move away from that philosophy and I am 100% behind them on it. If your guild mates think you are a great player then they would still take you on no matter what. People will still progress through T14 heroic as I highly expect the average guild to hit so many brick walls in ToT as they aren't raiding in T14 heroic gear. It's a move in the right direction, there should be no easy path to anything. People expect to have access to everything AND complete it when it hits, which is not right.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Droodeffekt View Post
    Some people here seem to be missing the point a little here.

    I am asking for 5 man dungeons to be a way to get you within a reasonable margin for the new patch to start a fresh.
    And they won't do this. They have clearly stated that they want a gearing progression, not a 'just run the new 5 mans'. This is a throwback to the old Burning Crusade model, which many people have indicated 'worked'. Back during BC, there were guilds in Sunwell, guilds in Hyjal and BT all the way down to Karazhan guilds. One advantage of this, is it does not invalidate or make obsolete earlier content due to 'just run the new 5 mans'.

    So reactivate, and start running the 5.0 content, and supplement your gear with the new Valor and older JP gear and then hit up the 5.2 content when ready. I really think this could be a good thing.
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  7. #27
    The Patient Vanchak's Avatar
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    Vexxie also makes a good point, the tier 13 normal and heroic modes should be available to cross realm groups in 5.2, openraid would be the way to go for smooth runs through the content to get some gear.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    JP gear has no rep requirement. I expect it to stay the same. Also next patch you will get extra JP when you have capped VP
    Using this method, grinding the JP and VP as well as relying on LFR will still probably exclude you from a decent ilvl by the start of patch 5.2, once again the problem continues. I will continue to say this, as it is being looked past but giving people the chance to participate at the start of a patch isn't giving them the "easy way out" as for the players who are serious this patch, you will still have huge advantages, it is just about giving people a chance to be decent and not have to be stuck in old content whilst friends and people talk about all the new things. This is about being fair to both sides e.g. Not having the 5 man dungeon gear being obsolete but not making people rely on LFR and nerfed old content before they can have a shot at the new stuff.

  9. #29
    The Patient Vanchak's Avatar
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    The thing is if you haven't done the old content it won't be old to you, what's the point in jumping straight into the halfway mark in a book without reading the beginning...

    This model of raiding progression worked in TBC, I for one am very happy with the way mists is going and the plans for the future. Like other people have pointed out, all content should last for the entire expansion, not become instantly obsolete with each patch, especially with the speed in which they're coming out. 5.3 will most likely be a dungeon/daily patch also, around halfway through mists, which is fair enough imo.
    Last edited by Vanchak; 2012-12-28 at 05:09 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kudos View Post
    And they won't do this. They have clearly stated that they want a gearing progression, not a 'just run the new 5 mans'. This is a throwback to the old Burning Crusade model, which many people have indicated 'worked'. Back during BC, there were guilds in Sunwell, guilds in Hyjal and BT all the way down to Karazhan guilds. One advantage of this, is it does not invalidate or make obsolete earlier content due to 'just run the new 5 mans'.

    So reactivate, and start running the 5.0 content, and supplement your gear with the new Valor and older JP gear and then hit up the 5.2 content when ready. I really think this could be a good thing.
    Thank you for being constructive about this post. I think that what you have said (I played in BC and completely understand) is actually true, but things were also a lot smoother back then then they are now. The way Blizzard have made people gear up (who are not raiding) is boring and stale and this is not how it was in BC. I think your point has some truths to it, but I know going from HEROICS > KARA> SSC is not like Heroics > LFR/daily grind/hopefully pug > old raid (as of patch 5.2) > current normal modes.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 05:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanchak View Post
    The thing is if you haven't done the old content it won't be old to you, what's the point in jumping straight into the halfway mark in a book without reading the beginning...
    Who has time to read books lol? All jokes aside, I think this analogy doesn't quite capture what I am trying to get at. I see an appropriate analogy being more towards this; Do you want to try and race against some people in a running race and see how you go? OH BRING IT ON! Well they are already 80% of the way there so you have to start from the start. With my suggested plan it would be like saying, okay you can start at 65% of the way and if you put in enough effort and skill you might catch up but they still have a reasonable advantage. Starting at the start, is just so far behind everyone else it becomes a drag.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Droodeffekt View Post
    Some people here seem to be missing the point a little here.

    I am asking for 5 man dungeons to be a way to get you within a reasonable margin for the new patch to start a fresh. Saying things such as "why should you because other raiders put in solid effort to get where they are" is sort of illogical as I am asking for reasonable gear, not asking for gear to wipe out everything a normal raider has worked for. Even with my proposed idea, someone who has been raiding will still be more geared, potentially a lot more geared, and therefore will still maintain an advantage for their efforts without punishing people who for whatever reason have not been raiding prior.
    it's not about an advantage, it's about getting to the point of sufficient gear for the next tier. It's almost certain that the time you need to get to the level of gear of the others who have raided will be much shorter than what they have put in. This comes in the forms of higher ilv gear being able to be bought with JP (not 100% certain), nerfs to old raids, your 9 other guildmates knowing fights already and got the gear already so all can be funnelled into you. That and 5.1 dailies giving you 496 gear at honored which require only a few days to reach. There are many ways to catch up, take your time and play the game.

  12. #32
    Openraid is a fantastic website that you should get acquainted with if you honestly think your going to have this much of a problem. Honestly this tiers normal modes are becoming pretty trivial rather quickly, added with the nerfs that will probably come with 5.2 and ToT and the fact you will be playing in a guild enviroment, you should have no problems putting aside 1-3 weeks to gear up for ToT.

    The best thing about all these "Im worried i wont have the ilevel for LFR ToT" threads, is nobody has any idea what the ilevel threshold will be, it all depends on how much blizzard choose to scale up the ilevel for ToT, you might be able to get to the threshold pretty easily, you just dont know.

  13. #33
    The Patient Vanchak's Avatar
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    It's only really a race for the top 15-20 world guilds really and the top 2 on each server, it's not really a race for anyone else, most other people raid for fun.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanchak View Post
    It's only really a race for the top 15-20 world guilds really and the top 2 on each server, it's not really a race for anyone else, most other people raid for fun.
    Agreed, and having fun isnt being able to enjoy all the new content when it comes out, not weeks and weeks later when you hopefully catch up in gear?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 05:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkiee View Post
    Openraid is a fantastic website that you should get acquainted with if you honestly think your going to have this much of a problem. Honestly this tiers normal modes are becoming pretty trivial rather quickly, added with the nerfs that will probably come with 5.2 and ToT and the fact you will be playing in a guild enviroment, you should have no problems putting aside 1-3 weeks to gear up for ToT.

    The best thing about all these "Im worried i wont have the ilevel for LFR ToT" threads, is nobody has any idea what the ilevel threshold will be, it all depends on how much blizzard choose to scale up the ilevel for ToT, you might be able to get to the threshold pretty easily, you just dont know.
    I am just approximating it not giving a defined figure.

    Also in a guild environment people who have been raiding will want to experience new content is it is a lot to ask them to come back and accommodate time to clear old content with me. This is why 5 mans were good because it put the reliance on you.

  15. #35
    The Patient Vanchak's Avatar
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    Just because you don't experience the content as soon as it comes out doesn't make it any less fun when you get there, it also doesn't make any of the previous tier's content less fun while your gearing up.

  16. #36
    So your friends asked you to come back to play with them and you can't ask them to do old contents to play with you? o.O

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by OscaR View Post
    So your friends asked you to come back to play with them and you can't ask them to do old contents to play with you? o.O
    Friends/guildies. Yes they did. However a lot of people who I play with don't have the time nor can they all have the spare time at the same time, to run old content ontop of current LFRs, dailies and raids.

  18. #38
    You people are so bad and lazy these days.

    It's terrible gamers like you guys that are the reason behind free epics in Twilight Heroics becoming a standard thing.

    So awful.

    If you want to be in a position to play new content as soon as it comes out, do what needs to be done to be ready in time for it, play your class well, get in to a good guild, and run it.

    There should be absolutely NO changes to the current system to allow easy catchup for lazy players. You shouldn't be rewarded for not playing.
    Last edited by skitzy129; 2012-12-28 at 05:27 AM.

  19. #39
    High Overlord Vexxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droodeffekt View Post
    Friends/guildies. Yes they did. However a lot of people who I play with don't have the time nor can they all have the spare time at the same time, to run old content ontop of current LFRs, dailies and raids.
    Then manage it in bite size chunks. Chill out, you don't have to do everything in one go. It's not going to disappear if you don't do it.

  20. #40
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitzy129 View Post
    You people are so bad and lazy these days.

    It's terrible gamers like you guys that are the reason behind free epics in Twilight Heroics becoming a standard thing.

    So awful.
    Funny thing...because it's NOT. Then again insulting people isn't a good form of a argument either.
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