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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena View Post
    The queue times will only get longer once the 5.2 LFR opens, I would hate to have to be a new player needing to run the 5.1 LFR to get geared, 2 -3 hour queue times wont be unexpected.
    Indeed. I've said this is a concern since beta, but maybe Blizzard wants to see it in action. The healer pool gets to be pretty thin at times with 5 LFR queues, and 3 more queues in 5.2 thins it even further. It's going to make 5.1 LFR a rather painful experience for DPS, with long queues, and if healers leave after bosses, they will find themselves staring at a boss until more join.

    I'm not really sure Blizzard can come up with a solution for the queues though. They have a satchel to bribe tanks/healers in 5 mans. Might have to do the same thing with old LFR wings. Not sure how appealing that satchel is these days though. If I was designing this, I guess I'd try out something like that out.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxie View Post
    What is so bad about going back through 5.0 content for a couple of months. If you are in a guild environment normal should be a breeze, especially considering they will be nerfing the content in 5.2. If you could provide a legitimate reason as to why this kind of PvE progression is bad then go ahead, i'd love to hear it.

    Gear resets should happen each expansion, not every 6 months. It invalidates amazing content that should be a staple in the game all the way through the expansion.
    This is why i liked attunements.

  3. #323
    I don't see the problem a blue posted hinted that the ilvl requirement for the new LFR would be 480-485. Complaining now is ridiculous just put some effort in your char and get upto 480 with some vp rewards, crafted stuff, LFR or heavens forbid do Mogushan vaults or heart of fear once or twice. There will probably be some new crafted gear and new vp rewards with 5.2 anyway to help gearing up.

  4. #324
    There are at least four methods of obtaining "raid equivalent" gear, not including the raids themselves -- there's no need to enable anybody, for any reason, to skip content.

    The OP is the same kind of person who will complain in six months that game mechanics made running MSV, HoS and ToES pointless so they missed out on content.

  5. #325
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena View Post
    I think you will find that it will drive people away from the game much faster than any other expansion, guilds DONT want to run the old content they have already spent months running just to gear up a new raider. New raiders DONT want to spend a month (More like 2) grinding obnoxiously boring dailies only to have to grind yet more obnoxious dailies when they unlock the extra gated reps. If you look back to wrath the reason they went with that model was because the TBC and Classic models DIDNT work, far to many guild couldn't get enough geared raiders to support stable raid comps. The amount of time they would have to spend gearing up new raiders was simply not worth it, as a result many players never actually saw the raids and many raid guilds simply gave up and folded.

    Another post with conclusion - GIVE US BIS ITEMS IN 2-3 DAYS !!!


    - You need only reverd in each faction to get items
    - after lvling you are honored or close to honored
    - it tooks about 3-4 weeks to farm revered
    - 3-4 weeks are also good to learn your class, earn some money and get crafted items, farm 5HC, go some Sha LFR etc.

    3-4 weeks are not so much for new players.



    About guild that want or dont want to run old content to gear up new players - it depends on what time this new player came. Ofc we are not talking atm about ANY top 400-top 500 guild in the world since new player wont get there anyway. So if this new guy will start playing 1-2 months before new patch with new content - his new raiding guild will still progressing so that means running old content. Since whole farm will took max 3-4 hours - its not a problem to get new player and gear him. If he would start just when new content arrives - well he wouldnt be taken for ANY raid for next 2-3 weeks anyway - doesnt matter if there would be new 5 man or not. Just becouse he still would have worse gear than any other raider, also nobody would know how hes playing = no chance for progress.

    So its false when your telling us that guilds wont make old content. They will - as a part of progress, to farm mounts/gear up mains alts/testing new players or just gearing new players - cos those are the only way to test them, and same time you can gear them.



    So please - stop with making arguments not taken from game but more like your wish, made up just to "prove" your theory.

  6. #326
    Just a note, if you want to do the legendary questline, you'll have to go back to 5.0 anyways.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimsonsix View Post
    In fact, it would be awesome if you had to grind though all available LFR tiers before being raid-ready.
    But LFR is too unpredictable. If you're like me (only 2 drops in 7 weeks) you'd never be ready that way.

  8. #328
    they should make it so that previous looking for raid (tes,msv,hof in 5.2) it resets again on friday, something they tested in korean server back in 4.3 (fireland being reset on fridays)

    this way there should be more people logging on during weekends and geting more chance to get gear from lfr (just lfr not normal/heroic raids)
    http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=dw+soul+roc in oceanic now Lol

    5172-1206-0622 pokemon FC Lets Battle!!

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulstrike View Post
    they should make it so that previous looking for raid (tes,msv,hof in 5.2) it resets again on friday, something they tested in korean server back in 4.3 (fireland being reset on fridays)

    this way there should be more people logging on during weekends and geting more chance to get gear from lfr (just lfr not normal/heroic raids)
    I actually like this idea - it would make both in-guild casual runs more possible and as well as that increase server participation in PUGs.

    Nerf t14 normals and reduce the raid lockout to 3 days. That's a fine suggestion IMO.

  10. #330
    Why does the normal version of the new raid content need to be accessible to people that haven't cleared the existing content? It's progression, meaning that you complete one thing and move on to the next. So go complete the one thing first before complaining about being unable to move on to the next bit. There's plenty of 1-night a week guilds that do some MSV and a little HoF. That's where you should be getting your gear, not in some random 5man instance.

    What happens when people can gear for normal raid content through nothing but 5-mans later on in an expansion, is that you get shitty players in normal groups. People who have alts and raid with guild will gear them through altruns with the guild, so what's left is people that have not really raided at all in MoP walking into a raid which assumes having the experience of 16 bosses under your belt. Raiding in MoP is different than it was before, and people need to work on the easier stuff to learn the flow of raiding in this xpac.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyy View Post
    Why does the normal version of the new raid content need to be accessible to people that haven't cleared the existing content? It's progression, meaning that you complete one thing and move on to the next. So go complete the one thing first before complaining about being unable to move on to the next bit. There's plenty of 1-night a week guilds that do some MSV and a little HoF. That's where you should be getting your gear, not in some random 5man instance.
    It is progression NOW because it is the current content. It won't be progression next patch because it's old stuff. Do you still consider Kara progression content? How about FL or DS? And no, there are not plenty of 1-night a week guilds everywhere. Maybe on your server but not on mine. My server is terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyy View Post
    What happens when people can gear for normal raid content through nothing but 5-mans later on in an expansion, is that you get shitty players in normal groups. People who have alts and raid with guild will gear them through altruns with the guild, so what's left is people that have not really raided at all in MoP walking into a raid which assumes having the experience of 16 bosses under your belt. Raiding in MoP is different than it was before, and people need to work on the easier stuff to learn the flow of raiding in this xpac.
    Gear doesn't fix stupid. Bad players will always be bad players regardless of gear. And 5 mans are certainly easier and more forgiving than raids. I'd say that running a 5 man gives you a lot more practice at playing your class than a raid where you stand there and don't follow mechanics. You know how funny I find spirit kings in LFR where half the raid STANDS there and gets hit by every dodgeable mechanic (pillage, volley, annihilate, etc)? In a 5 man, you stand in stupid shit you die and you learn not to do it or you get kicked. In LFR you stand in stupid shit you take 15% damage and never learn to move and you still get gear. So 5 mans are actually better at teaching you your class.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    It is progression NOW because it is the current content. It won't be progression next patch because it's old stuff. Do you still consider Kara progression content? How about FL or DS? And no, there are not plenty of 1-night a week guilds everywhere. Maybe on your server but not on mine. My server is terrible.



    Gear doesn't fix stupid. Bad players will always be bad players regardless of gear. And 5 mans are certainly easier and more forgiving than raids. I'd say that running a 5 man gives you a lot more practice at playing your class than a raid where you stand there and don't follow mechanics. You know how funny I find spirit kings in LFR where half the raid STANDS there and gets hit by every dodgeable mechanic (pillage, volley, annihilate, etc)? In a 5 man, you stand in stupid shit you die and you learn not to do it or you get kicked. In LFR you stand in stupid shit you take 15% damage and never learn to move and you still get gear. So 5 mans are actually better at teaching you your class.
    You are missing his point entirely.

    In any expansion you clear the first tier and work your way up. That is progression through the tiers (thats the point you missed), I get your point on there being no 5mans I wanted them for an entirely different reason. I wanted extra dungeon content. I enjoy 5man content and I was hoping we'd get a 5man or 2. The whole "teaching you how to play" is a flawed arguement. Stupid/bad players have always existed and have always stood in fire multiple times. You either improve your self by your own steam or not at all.

    There are lots of ways to gear up but none of them are as quick as Wrath/Cata was. I think its a good thing too. Don't get me wrong it sucked in vanilla and TBC to have to constantly run MC/BWL to gear new guys for AQ40 or nax or running TK/SSC to get people attuned for BT. This won't be nearly as bad as you have your heroic upgrades your valour upgrades and you have LFR + normal 5.0 raids that a guild aiming to do 5.2 could quickly run a HOF/TOES run and get you geared.

    I think this will be a case of lets see how it works and judge after its released.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbad View Post
    I don't see the problem a blue posted hinted that the ilvl requirement for the new LFR would be 480-485. Complaining now is ridiculous just put some effort in your char and get upto 480 with some vp rewards, crafted stuff, LFR or heavens forbid do Mogushan vaults or heart of fear once or twice. There will probably be some new crafted gear and new vp rewards with 5.2 anyway to help gearing up.


    GC tweeted "If you have 5.0 LFR gear and a few valor pieces or upgrades, you should be fine. A new 90 can't jump into 5.2 LFR first though." So there's your answer. 5.0 LFR would be 476 + some ups, guessing that number would look like 480 for convenience sake.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    It is progression NOW because it is the current content. It won't be progression next patch because it's old stuff. Do you still consider Kara progression content? How about FL or DS? And no, there are not plenty of 1-night a week guilds everywhere. Maybe on your server but not on mine. My server is terrible.

    Gear doesn't fix stupid. Bad players will always be bad players regardless of gear. And 5 mans are certainly easier and more forgiving than raids. I'd say that running a 5 man gives you a lot more practice at playing your class than a raid where you stand there and don't follow mechanics. You know how funny I find spirit kings in LFR where half the raid STANDS there and gets hit by every dodgeable mechanic (pillage, volley, annihilate, etc)? In a 5 man, you stand in stupid shit you die and you learn not to do it or you get kicked. In LFR you stand in stupid shit you take 15% damage and never learn to move and you still get gear. So 5 mans are actually better at teaching you your class.
    First of all, as long as something is in the current expansion, is a raid, and you haven't completed it, it is progression. It's the simple definition of progression so there's no point in arguing about it.

    Secondly, I'm talking about normals, as most people seem to be talking about pugging 10mans here. Normal mode raid these tiers require you to not be an idiot to actually make it, as displayed by the amount of guilds still wiping on Elegon. Raiding has changed from DS, where you could w/e you wanted and still kill everything. In MSV, and certainly in HoF, if you fuck up, you wipe the raid. That's why people should get used to unforgiving mechanics in the fight where they are at their least unforgiving. If the new content is tuned towards people having gotten a feel for how much movement, and most importantly, smart movement, raiding currently requires, I don't want anyone that hasn't done any raiding in MoP yet in my raid.

    Basically, I think people need to learn one-shot firewalls on spirit kings, where it moves extremely slowly. This way, by the time the new content comes along, they will actually know how to dodge shit.

    I'm also not talking about learning to play their class, I'm purely talking about raid mechanics

  15. #335
    non issue. in tbc getting to t6+ level was really hard because t5 was challenging (everything except part of t4 was 25 man only)
    it felt like you would have guilds stuck on the same tier because when its players that were both good and geared (got gear) they would move on to the t6 guilds etc.

    with the wrath system you could very easily raid previous tier with alts or new players (partly because you were able to organize it well because you could do it as a 10man) in order to gear them up some.
    you can see if people are good or bad even if they have a lot worse gear than others so it was very doable to make informed decisions as to keep gearing them and allow them to stream into the main raid or simply remove them from all these activities (the guild) because of poor performance.

    so mop combines these two. it has the tiered progression where you are required to do a tier in order to get some of its items in order to move on to the next tier. but it allows you to do this entire process from start to finish as a 10 man group, making it very accessible when you consider people are gonna be going to do this with a mix of experienced players on alts and newer players that are gonna be progressing the tiers.

    i never played anything cataclysm but for a full comparison i believe from what ive read, cataclysm allowed players to buy current tier gear with valor points where one would use the dungeon/raid que system to rapidly farm the points for a decent amount of gear.
    Last edited by LKPVmnjler; 2013-01-02 at 03:45 PM.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    As long as you keep avoiding the point that VP gear will be bumped down to JP, thus giving you a *complete* set (barring weapons, which we might be able to craft, concidering that thunder-forge they hinted at in the preview stating it could make "raid worthy" weapons or something) of 489/496 gear, netting you about 492 average.
    This is about as good as ANY normal mode raider will manage to get - might be slightly behind, but for all intents and purposes, 492 is enough to take down the vast majority of heroic modes in the current tier, and should be more than enough to take down the normal modes in the NEXT tier, rewarding you loot upgrades (usually, items are 8-9 ilvls above the previous tier - thus we can expect ilvl 503 items from the normal modes, and 516 from the heroic modes).

    Stating that "JP is long/boring/hard" to get, doesn't matter. It is still a way for you to catch up - an ensured method, even, of catching up, because no matter how many times you raid, you might never see half the items you want drop. But JP? JP will be aquired from every boss kill in HC's. It'll ENSURE you a way to gear up.

    Something you are also not concidering, is this -
    back in Cataclysm, for one, each tier brought a new set of VP items. They usually covered 4-5 slots total. Thus over the expansion, you could get like... Half your slots filled out by lvl 359, 378 and 397 epics.
    This time, YOUR ENTIRE GEARSET is provided for you. You can literally farm all the gear you'll ever need for stepping IN to a raid, from random heroics. There's no missing pieces - suboptimal? Sure. It's supposed to be a secondary choise to actually raiding. Viable? Oh hell yes.

    We're getting new ways of aquiring JP (such as a boost when Vp capped, as far as I've understood?), which means that you can in no way compare the speed to now. But on average, each random hc holds what, 4-5 bosses. That's 42 vp per boss, or 210 vp per. I might be slightly off, but you need about 22K justice points for a FULL set of gear. that's all 15 items minus weapon. You can do 3 heroics an hour at this point, when next patch comes around, this should deffo hold true, that's 630 VP an hour. 35 hours for farming a full set of raiding ready gear, under the CURRENT system. Expect it to be maybe double as fast under the next patch. So let's say, 20 hours.
    Of course, if you're really as dedicated to joining your friends as you're saying, you'll have both the lotus necklase (-1250 JP), the klaxxi ring (-1250 vp) and a Darkmoon trinket (-1750 jp) - all 3 extremely easily gained, and can be gained BEFORE the patch even hits without any shred of luck needed. Just some effort. That's 20% of the neccessary VP, gone.

    Is that really so bad? How much time do you spend clearing all five parts of LFR in a week? an hour average per? Maybe two if you're counting in queue timers and you're a dps. You'll get stronger items here, you can do it on YOUR schedule (no waiting a week to get another shot at an item), you can literally have it knocked out in less than a week if you wish to.

    And don't give me the bullshit that the items require rep. Repgrinds have ALWAYS been a part of WoW. The fact that you can't equip your tabard and sprint through the grinds so they didn't even really matter is just too bad, really. If you want to raid, you get rep. At this point, if you have every single reputation enhancer (+100%), and level a new character through townlong+dreadwastes, getting:
    Klaxxi+lotus exalted.
    Offensive+celestials+shadopan revered.
    Takes you at most 14 days. Some of them are alot less (klaxxi is less than a week, shado pan is almost instant - longest is celestials as it requires revered lotus, then itself revered, and no questhubs are aviable for either faction with rep hubs).

    You CANNOT expect to get a template character handed to you just because you want to raid in 5.2.
    In less than two weeks, you can be fully geared, and ready to tackle whatever raid is thrown at you, for less than 3 hours worth of gaming per day - 2 for dailies, 1 for randoms. Less time will be spent on dailies as you get each of them to it's required rep level, winding down to just needing ten minutes to finish off celestials by day 10 or so.
    Seeing as the OP didnt comment on this post at all, shows that he was indeed just here to whine about him not getting free candy. Let the thread die, pointless thread is pointless. Its basically a disagreement in core gaming expirience, theres no reason to beat the dead horse. Theres plenty of options, and OP is a lazy player for not wanting to do them.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuke1096 View Post
    489 and 496 Valor Gear will likely be bumped down to Justice Points. That's more than enough to get caught up if you're behind.
    That has not been confirmed. There won't be any new valor gear to go to valor points, so they are unlikely to do what they did in Cataclysm.

    Also, Justice Points are much more difficult to come by than Valor Points this expansion.

    The fact is, they don't want people to quit and come back - they want you to stay the entire expansion.

    Is this a big gamble and potential for huge mistake if people can't come back easily? Maybe.

  18. #338
    "You must defeat Will of the Emperor, Grand Empress Shek'zeer and the Sha of Fear to be able to enter this raid instance"

    ^ I'm one of the radicals that supports this =) Not because I feel entitled or anything but because it's pretty obvious to me that the only way to get people to enjoy ALL of your raid content is to do as many things as you can to FORCE them into that content. I never understand the argument that basically goes "I want to be able to SKIP your content so I can see your content!" - what's going to make THIS content any better/more enjoyable for you than the LAST content? If your answer is loot/gear/purplez then I have some bad news for you - you probably won't be finishing this set of content either.

  19. #339
    Depending on what the iLevel is of the ToT LFR gear, they could tune normal ToT for being around the iLevel of normal HoF/TES, and not provide easy JP gear, so there is artificial gating: You need to be geared in a mix of T14 raid gear and T15 LFR gear to be able to have any success in T15 (i.e. only T15 LFR gear won't cut it alone)

  20. #340
    You'll have LFR to gear up, valor rewards, current valor rewards will probably be downgraded to justice (?), if not, normal mode should be enough to carry a decent player with blue heroic gear and some epics

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