Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
LastLast
  1. #61
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Gen pop is short for general population. It's used in game QA to refer to the mundane mobs about the world without any goals attached to them. Typically in MMO development the gen pop of an area are given passes. That is to say a dev will ask QA [or simulate themselves] to identify clusters of mobs, resources, NPCs, etc that are perhaps too dense for a given area, respawn too quickly or not quick enough, react accordingly, etc.

    A 'pipsqueak' mechanic is an old dungeons & dragons design trick. The idea being that the big bad guy of your local area has an infinitely disposable supply of hapless, [somewhat] incompetence minions. Otherwise known as cannon fodder or 'pipsqueaks'.

    Think if you will of the stereotypical dragon's horde of clumsy goblins, Darth Vader's crosseyed stormtroopers or the thousand doom bots hurried before Victor Von Doom.

    Usually the idea is these pipsqueaks are trivial to kill but numerous. Pipsqueaks can overwhelm by numbers alone if not sort of taken out. This has the psychological effect of making players feel like "heroes" as they cut a swath through the minion ranks. The actual design purpose it serves is to inspire action with a minimum of investment by the player.

    For example, in Dungeons & Dragons one might fight through a dozen or so skeletons [which shatter satisfyingly after a few hits] to reach the Necromancer threat. Or in Tera where larger creatures typically have a retinue of smaller minions.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pip-squeak
    Omg... YES, fucking YES give us pipsqueak mobs!! I've been dying for a mechanic like that for freaking ever on a boss yet no one ever does it!! let the hordes of undead just freaking swarm you in some events, that'd be absolutely GLORIOUS!!

    PS: The Charr 28 quest (Order of Whispers) has some of these pipsqueak mobs, when you approach a necromancer she summons a good 25 of them and they just fucking charge you, they deal the same damage as normal mobs but went down in like 2 shots.

    @Meledelion, the fact you say eles are one trick ponies is kinda just, well, wrong. Same with thieves, same with mes, same with every other prof you may believe is a one trick pony. It's not the -prof- it's the -build- that is a one trick pony. You can make them on any prof, and they all tend to have the same goal "Kill the person before they can react." And i'd say Willias has more of an idea what he's talking about than you do after reading your post...
    Last edited by Durzlla; 2013-01-02 at 05:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  2. #62
    What I mean is that people drag the flawed idea in arguments regarding survivability and dps. In WoW lots of people were throwing around "Dead dps is 0dps". Which on it's own is true, however this has nothing to do with itemisation or toon mechanics. Remember that in WoW everyone had his designated point of dominance due to the trinity. If you're a DPS you're going to itemise/spec around doing the most damage possible.

    The "DDi0D" doesn't apply in the way people are thinking of in GW2. In comparison you're sugesting that a rogue/hunter/mage would start stacking more stamina to live longer on a fight where there's a soft enrage timer and the boss does x more dmg over y time.

    Clearly that last part is very odd. So what is meant with "DDi0D" is that you should be the best dps there is but your survivability comes from playing smart.

    What you say about toughness/vit is correct, it's a buffer so you can play worse. However this sort of leniancy makes it so people experience a higher ceiling of possibilities at first but afterwards it's a lot harder to break through that ceiling and stop using vit/tough gear (eventhough they're good enough so they don't need the extra buffer)

    You're reversing when a war is bad with when a war is good. As I've just said the less surv gear you get away with, the better the player you are (or have to be). If you take this line of thinking and extend it a bit you realise that the margin for error on a war is a lot lower than the margin of error on mesmers and eles (as I've previously said eles mobility and base healing/protection mechanics give bigger margins of error and thus make the class easier to play. Same goes for the mesmer, they get extra survivability since they can push people in certain positions, you have to fight at range vs a mes since otherwise their shatters will wreck you without you having any time to react. This is a very strong position to be in, another thing that helps mesmers survive is their invisibility (all be it brief) + the uptime of a mes is higher due to illusions doing dmg while you're running away/positioning/... which other classes don't have.

    What you should be comparing is class mechanics, not their gear. If you strip all classes of gear and judge mechanics alone warriors have very few points of leniancy as opposed to others. This is what class complexity is about, the amount of skills you need to manage being double for an ele than most other classes is irrelevant since you should know all your skills regardless of class or wether or not they are active at the moment.

    Illusions aren't complex either, the only "hard" part about them is knowing which one will be overwritten and making sure you follow the same sequence of summoning so you don't overwrite the illusions you actually want.

    The fact that mesmers and eles have high surv and dmg has nothing to do with wether or not they are one trick ponies or not. The fact that they survive so well is a class mechanic. This means that surviving on one of those classes is easier and thus less complex.

    Warrior and ranger have the least inherit "outs" meaning that you have to play better to stay alive. Imo this makes them more complex.
    Most people seem to look at the war and ranger and notice that the step in point is low and then conclude that those classes aren't complex. The opposite happens with a mes or ele where the step in point is high.
    However this is only as long as you're being introduced to the classes, the moment you realise howmany basic outs there are for each class is the moment you realise warriors and rangers have a far bigger complexity since they require expert timing and mastery, whilst other classes have a buffer for bad play.

    @durz, you're talking about pvp good. In any spvp team all thieves eles and mesmers are running burst skills. Our good friend zitto has been complaining on the mesmer forums about being pigeonholed into being this way to be effective in sPvP. Same goes for thieves and eles, sure you can run another build and be ok in spvp but you're not going to win any r50+tournaments since nobody will take you in their team.

    But ofc that's pvp and has little to do with class mechanics which is why I would have prefered to ignore it. I know it's the build they run that makes them one trick ponies. But again as I've said, this doesn't change the basic mechanics.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-02 at 06:21 PM.

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,650
    @Med well you can be more viable then the one trick pony builds in PvP, but the current "meta" isn't that? You can build a team around not having that and dominate (support ranger and thief ftw lol)

    As for the whole it's a buffer to get vit/toughness that's true PARTIALLY, if you're building to be a damage dealer with some utility/control tacked on you're absolutely right no argument. However if you're building more like a tank it a supporter you begin to be wrong because those stats are absolutely essentially and stats like power, precision and condi dmg take a back seat. My guild has a fractal team that farms fotm lv 30 every day and they have a warrior armed to the teeth with defensive gear and he just run around CCing and cock blocking all the mobs while the glass canon ranger, thief, and guardian evade and dodge all over the place as they deal damage. And I believe they said they had a necro as their "supporty" prof he's decked out in clerics gear and has 30pts in death and blood magic. They said they originally did it as a joke but it ended up being so effective they stuck with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    As for the whole it's a buffer to get vit/toughness that's true PARTIALLY, if you're building to be a damage dealer with some utility/control tacked on you're absolutely right no argument.

    However if you're building more like a tank it a supporter you begin to be wrong because those stats are absolutely essentially and stats like power, precision and condi dmg take a back seat. My guild has a fractal team that farms fotm lv 30 every day and they have a warrior armed to the teeth with defensive gear and he just run around CCing and cock blocking all the mobs while the glass canon ranger, thief, and guardian evade and dodge all over the place as they deal damage. And I believe they said they had a necro as their "supporty" prof he's decked out in clerics gear and has 30pts in death and blood magic. They said they originally did it as a joke but it ended up being so effective they stuck with it.
    Can you rephrase what you're trying to say here since I can't seem to understand it.

  5. #65
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Can you rephrase what you're trying to say here since I can't seem to understand it.
    What i'm saying is if you're going for an offensive build (One that can avoid the vit/toughness) you're absolutely right, don't take them, they're not needed they just make up for bad dodging and other such bad player traits.

    However if you are building yourself up to be very very tanky and run interference with all the mobs trying to kill your party, or a more support oriented role where you're distracting enemies and just throwing boons and healing on everyone around you, they're absolutely essential (especially for the first). The tanky builds need to stack a lot of vit/toughness (from what i've seen they almost always take soldiers armor) and then they build around having a lot of stuns, dazes, cripples, KDs, some defensive utilities etc, and they pretty much forgo damage (granted they still -have- damage) to make the enemies unable to get to their target, interrupt spells, and just all around keep them unable to kill the group. If they were in more offensive armor they wouldn't be able to do it because a few hits and they'd have to give up what they were doing and throw someone else onto the mob (they do need to swap off the mob eventually, but they can usually go for quite a while when synergized with the support persons boons).

    If you build for support there's 2 types that are normally there, the ones that are all out support, fuck offense who needs it type, and the ones who have -some- offense but it's not very heavy. The former tends to have a ton of boons and i've normally seen it done on guardians because they can get away with that the easiest and have the most flexibility with it. The second take skills like QZ/frenzy that can be used both defensively and offensively (super fast pick up) but are normally used defensively, and then also have a lot of boons and some healing. Their damage is there, but it's hardly anything, it's enough to kill things, but if you were in PvP with the build you'd essentially be winning the fight by outlasting the enemy (kinda like a bunker but not to that extreme).

    And then i was talking about how a FotM group in my guild farms lv 30 and they pretty much do it with a "trinity" where everyone in the group is focusing on one function (thief, guardian, ranger are focusing on damage, warrior focusing on control, necro focusing on support), it apparently was a joke at first, but it worked out so well they just stuck with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  6. #66
    Ty for taking your time to write it out.

    Tanking is highly overrated, most people don't even tank, they avoid dmg. Using block (focus for guard) or shield + immobilise and then prot/aegis spam.
    If you're good you don't need vit/tough for this either. This should be obvious since stunned/immobilised mobs can be kited very easily without ever being hit.

    Building for support comes from utilities/weaponskills 99% of the time and not from armor. The only exception are healers who actually need +healing. Healers however aren't useful at all most of them just overheal like mad or waste all their shouts on one person since they can't bring them up otherwise.

    Going further from this the second part is also weird since there's nothing gearwise that holds you back from using full zerker gear when playing a support build. Again, look at the sonic boon build for an example of great support with great dmg.

    I farm lvl 30+ with a full team running berserker (apart from ele who has ramp) we don't use tanks or healers.

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Ty for taking your time to write it out.

    Tanking is highly overrated, most people don't even tank, they avoid dmg. Using block (focus for guard) or shield + immobilise and then prot/aegis spam.
    If you're good you don't need vit/tough for this either. This should be obvious since stunned/immobilised mobs can be kited very easily without ever being hit.

    Building for support comes from utilities/weaponskills 99% of the time and not from armor. The only exception are healers who actually need +healing. Healers however aren't useful at all most of them just overheal like mad or waste all their shouts on one person since they can't bring them up otherwise.

    Going further from this the second part is also weird since there's nothing gearwise that holds you back from using full zerker gear when playing a support build. Again, look at the sonic boon build for an example of great support with great dmg.

    I farm lvl 30+ with a full team running berserker (apart from ele who has ramp) we don't use tanks or healers.
    Yeah idk what gear the support one is using, but i'm assuming it's like my personal support build that forgoes high amounts of health (i've noticed a lot of mobs ignore you if you have high amounts of health) but goes for large amounts of health gain and armor, the health gain also helps with the regen i apply to my allies as well so it's kinda a win win, still able to pump out some nice damage via my pet but not to the extent of someone in berserkers, just not my style.

    I'm not saying that tanking or "healing" is required (most people trying to be healers are just stupid about it as you mentioned with the blowing their shouts to heal one person) i'm just saying if you're to take those options you'll need to gear for it.

    PS: I meant to say you needed high vitality OR toughness not both.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    PS: I meant to say you needed high vitality OR toughness not both.
    I understand why you say this but I'll try to explain why this isn't true.

    Bosses can do 2types of dmg (3including agony but that's an exception so I'll ignore it)
    Direct dmg (dd) and conditions damage (cd)
    Toughness is great vs dd and vitatility is great vs cd.

    If out of all bosses 50/50 do dd or cd it means you either have a (close to) useless stat 50% of the time or you're running around with basically the same gear twice.
    (the part below this only matters if you do not have 2sets)

    So let's say (for the sake of the argument, this isn't true at all) that every 10tough or vit gives you 10% longer life time and the total amount of stats you can get equal to 100% longer life time.
    If you want to up your surv by 50% you can do it by getting 50tough and 50 vit (since both are useless 50% of the time you need 50 and not 25 as you'd expect) or you can do it by getting 100vit or toughness.

    This means that if you want to live twice as long you'll actually be taking 100vit+100tough or 200of either one. This in turn means that you'll have to sack your 3rd stat quite hard and you'll lose close to all dps.

    On it's own this isn't important however this lower dps will make it so that fights become longer and the longer the fight the more likely you are to fck up and thus die.

    Now look at it from another perspective, let's say I want to dps. Power/prec/crit all scale really well together, this means that no 3rd stat has to be saced in any way for a dps built to be "more" viable.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post

    What you should be comparing is class mechanics, not their gear. If you strip all classes of gear and judge mechanics alone warriors have very few points of leniancy as opposed to others. This is what class complexity is about, the amount of skills you need to manage being double for an ele than most other classes is irrelevant since you should know all your skills regardless of class or wether or not they are active at the moment.

    Illusions aren't complex either, the only "hard" part about them is knowing which one will be overwritten and making sure you follow the same sequence of summoning so you don't overwrite the illusions you actually want.

    The fact that mesmers and eles have high surv and dmg has nothing to do with wether or not they are one trick ponies or not. The fact that they survive so well is a class mechanic. This means that surviving on one of those classes is easier and thus less complex.

    Warrior and ranger have the least inherit "outs" meaning that you have to play better to stay alive. Imo this makes them more complex.
    Most people seem to look at the war and ranger and notice that the step in point is low and then conclude that those classes aren't complex. The opposite happens with a mes or ele where the step in point is high.
    However this is only as long as you're being introduced to the classes, the moment you realise howmany basic outs there are for each class is the moment you realise warriors and rangers have a far bigger complexity since they require expert timing and mastery, whilst other classes have a buffer for bad play.
    At a high level of play, I agree. Starting out? Warriors feel a lot easier to figure out than a mesmer. I'd say that maybe I should have said learning curve instead of complexity, but I don't really think it changes the point of what I was originally trying to say. Starting off, a warrior is going to be a lot less complex to learn than a mesmer or elementalist. However, I do agree that at a very high level of play, warriors have a lot more to worry about than mesmers or elementalists.

    Bosses can do 2types of dmg (3including agony but that's an exception so I'll ignore it)
    Direct dmg (dd) and conditions damage (cd)
    Toughness is great vs dd and vitatility is great vs cd.

    If out of all bosses 50/50 do dd or cd it means you either have a (close to) useless stat 50% of the time or you're running around with basically the same gear twice.
    (the part below this only matters if you do not have 2sets)

    So let's say (for the sake of the argument, this isn't true at all) that every 10tough or vit gives you 10% longer life time and the total amount of stats you can get equal to 100% longer life time.
    If you want to up your surv by 50% you can do it by getting 50tough and 50 vit (since both are useless 50% of the time you need 50 and not 25 as you'd expect) or you can do it by getting 100vit or toughness.

    This means that if you want to live twice as long you'll actually be taking 100vit+100tough or 200of either one. This in turn means that you'll have to sack your 3rd stat quite hard and you'll lose close to all dps.

    On it's own this isn't important however this lower dps will make it so that fights become longer and the longer the fight the more likely you are to fck up and thus die.

    Now look at it from another perspective, let's say I want to dps. Power/prec/crit all scale really well together, this means that no 3rd stat has to be saced in any way for a dps built to be "more" viable.
    Vitality is useful vs both condition damage and direct damage. You have more health that can absorb more hits. The model for effective health is Health * Armor. The more armor you have, the higher the value each point of health is. The more health you have, the higher the value of each point of armor.

    That being said, while the chances of you having a longer fight and possibly running into a mistake are higher with lower dps and higher survivability, with a tougher character, fucking up doesn't necessarily kill you.

    In terms of high level fractals, toughness and vitality eventually become worthless because the goal becomes never get hit. I've read that mobs in Fractals level 60+ do extreme amounts of damage with basic attacks. At this point a lot of builds start falling apart because you lose the ability to engage in melee and having the ability to block projectiles and kite becomes paramount.

    However, at least in the 10-19 fractal range, running with PUGs, I wouldn't change my gear as a melee guardian one damn bit. Having the increased survivability for now allows me to better learn how to dodge enemy attacks without being made a liability to my groups, and it allows me to hold mobs off of squishier group members that are terrible at dodging.

  10. #70
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I understand why you say this but I'll try to explain why this isn't true.

    Bosses can do 2types of dmg (3including agony but that's an exception so I'll ignore it)
    Direct dmg (dd) and conditions damage (cd)
    Toughness is great vs dd and vitatility is great vs cd.

    If out of all bosses 50/50 do dd or cd it means you either have a (close to) useless stat 50% of the time or you're running around with basically the same gear twice.
    (the part below this only matters if you do not have 2sets)

    So let's say (for the sake of the argument, this isn't true at all) that every 10tough or vit gives you 10% longer life time and the total amount of stats you can get equal to 100% longer life time.
    If you want to up your surv by 50% you can do it by getting 50tough and 50 vit (since both are useless 50% of the time you need 50 and not 25 as you'd expect) or you can do it by getting 100vit or toughness.

    This means that if you want to live twice as long you'll actually be taking 100vit+100tough or 200of either one. This in turn means that you'll have to sack your 3rd stat quite hard and you'll lose close to all dps.

    On it's own this isn't important however this lower dps will make it so that fights become longer and the longer the fight the more likely you are to fck up and thus die.

    Now look at it from another perspective, let's say I want to dps. Power/prec/crit all scale really well together, this means that no 3rd stat has to be saced in any way for a dps built to be "more" viable.
    Eh, it depends on the person, i've soloed group events (dwaynas temple for example) using my toughness + healing power + power gear, i purge conditions from myself on heal, purge blind and poison on dodge role, and have an elite that will purge condis from me and all nearby allys. Then again, i'm used to playing the very sturdy prof that needs to not fuck up over a long period to win, so the longer the fight goes the more likely i am to be victorious.

    So i am essentially countering both types of damage while stacking 1 of them and tailoring my build slightly around countering the weakness to my armor. I do see what you're getting at though, but i think it really just varies on the person, pure damage totally goes for a risk vs reward thing in PvE.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  11. #71
    One of the things that annoys me the most is the miserly way that cash shop games dole out in game money. Of course, the reason is that they want you to use their cash shop but as someone who likes to actively participate in the economy of a game, this is so limiting. I've level my ranger/hunter to level 11 and she's won/earned about 15 silver. Not anywhere near one gold. I know, I know you don't need gold in GW2 but really, is that true? Isn't accumulating gold and items what makes MMORPG's fun? I really think it is.

    So I rolled an Asura guardian and this toon plays a lot better than the ranger. Same litany of DE's personal quests though. The only difference is the scenery which is, indeed, pretty great. I kind of wish the creators of GW 2 had invested as much in game play as they did in the art.

  12. #72
    Isn't accumulating gold and items what makes MMORPG's fun? I really think it is.
    If the gameplay was based around economics, yea. Otherwise, pretty much no.

    Here is the thing, there isn't much to buy in GW2. Crafting, I suppose. But that has a definite end just as buying gear. Once you have exotics [regardless of acquisition] the only actual gold sink in GW2 is travel cost.

    Gold itself isn't even needed to get exotics. So like... crafting and travel.

    I make no effort to gain gold in GW2. I barely play 2 hours a week. I have hundreds of gold and thousands of karma. There is like nothing that requires gold funneling.

    This is common in many modern MMOs too. I don't do jack for gold in Rift or Tera either. And I am pretty close to being gold capped I think. What am I suppose to buy; 17 virtual area rugs? Get out of here with that crap, Trion.

  13. #73
    Fluffy Kitten Azuri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,499
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I What am I suppose to buy; 17 virtual area rugs? Get out of here with that crap, Trion.

    What am I suppose to do with virtual cosmetic gear? Get out of here with that crap, Anet. See what I did there? <3
    • PSN ID: Azuri118 •

  14. #74
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    3,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Azuri View Post
    What am I suppose to do with virtual cosmetic gear? Get out of here with that crap, Anet. See what I did there? <3
    If only we could buy cosmetic gear with gold... well, we can get Tier 3 cultural armor (i'm not a fan of the sylvari one, the nightmare one is sooooo much cooler...)

    @The whole overflow of gold thing, it seems a TON of gold is leaving the system through the purchase of gems, so that's always a great thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  15. #75
    I can't imagine a damn thing in the cash shop worth even 1 gold or $1.00 USD.

    May companies profit forevermore on "alt-o-holics", "pack rats" and gamblers.

  16. #76
    i agree with fencers i also just got lots of karma and gold and nothing i can do with it...
    in WOW i always needed gold for gems/enchants for the new gear etc..

  17. #77
    I think you can be quite conscious of gold when you first hit 80 you're trying to gear and travel costs seem high but as Fencers points out after you do gear up there’s nothing much other than levelling crafting that is a major drain on gold. It's just a case of sticking with it until you get geared and from that point you're gold will build up without even realising it.

  18. #78
    Warchief Maarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Austria (EU)
    Posts
    2,053
    Well personally I can't have enough gold, gems are expensive and this means

    -) Bagspace is expensive
    -) Bank-storage is expensive (can never have enough of these two, currently I have 5 bank-storage and all of them are full with crafting-mats)
    -) Character-Slots (I don't want to delete any of my lv.80s, just to be able to play a new profession/personal story path).
    -) the mystic stones to create the 250stack-tools - much better than the 25stack tools.

    then there are the 20-slot bags... damn expensive, but I want them on each of my characters.

  19. #79
    I only have the cheapest 8 slot bags on all my characters and two gear sets a piece. Never once have I filled those bags to capacity. Even after 6 hours of DE zerg farming.

    Using 6 slots of the default original bank space, 2 of which are just outfits and 1 is candy corn. Can't say I hold on to tonics, no.

  20. #80
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    In my head, where crazy happens.
    Posts
    8,748
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Funny coincidence, my cousin got a WoW trial account, played it for 2 days and thought WoW had no depth.

    Isn't that bizarre?
    Why are you giving this guy such bad attitude? He wrote as unbiased as he could and did a more fair first impression text than you could expect from most.
    Sick and tired of people having a holier-than-thou attitude just because they aren't playing World of Warcraft.

    Personally, I don't think I like the F2P model. In the end, you'll probably end up spending money on it anyway just to get all the things that without cash spent, take a LOT of time to get.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •