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  1. #41
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    Maybe to you, but I really like immersion, it's important for a good fantasy game. Otherwise I'd go play chess.
    I agree with this. Immersion is very important for me when I play any game and some things in games can be a "immersion killer", while other factors in them can enhance it. I also realize this is a opinion based on how one's attitude, expectations and approach to any game is. This happens to be one reason I enjoy playing GW2, I can really get into the immersive feeling of being in that fantasy world. In my mind, I become that charector. Imagination can be a wonderful thing if used correctly.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Enjoyment has nothing to do with it.

    Gameplay relates to play/rule systems. It's not a matter of opinion.
    Hmm, Idk.

    "Gameplay is the specific way in which players interact with a game,[1][2] and in particular with video games.[3][4] Gameplay is the pattern defined through the game rules,[2][5] connection between player and the game,[6] challenges[7] and overcoming them,[8] plot[9] and player's connection with it.[6] Video game gameplay is distinct from graphics,[9][10] and audio elements.[9]"

    The bold part being my point. I think it might be a matter of opinion.

    I do think Immersion is part of gameplay.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilong View Post
    Hmm, Idk.

    "Gameplay is the specific way in which players interact with a game,[1][2] and in particular with video games.[3][4] Gameplay is the pattern defined through the game rules,[2][5] connection between player and the game,[6] challenges[7] and overcoming them,[8] plot[9] and player's connection with it.[6] Video game gameplay is distinct from graphics,[9][10] and audio elements.[9]"

    The bold part being my point. I think it might be a matter of opinion.

    I do think Immersion is part of gameplay.
    The part you are quoting is a matter of interaction. Interface, control schema, etc. It is expressed within the citation as interaction within the play or rule systems. Not opinion.

    The common notion within the video game audience that sees the medium as a vehicle for entertainment primarily is incorrect.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Functionally they are the same though. Not really concerned about "feeling".

    One wave of attacking <centaurs> <bandits> <flame legion> <grawl> chaining into a another series of defending <asura> <lionguard> <pact> <seraph> from <centaurs> <bandits> <flame legion> <grawl> which leads to collect <artifacts> <herbs <rum> <gears> for the nearby <asura> <lionguard> <pact> <seraph> then chaining into a fight with a champion <centaurs> <bandits> <flame legion> <grawl> is all the same stuff.

    Immersion is not gameplay.
    I agree with you about the fact that there could be a bigger variety of events. You defend an area, you escort npcs, you invade in enemy territory, you kill enemies until their morale is broken, you kill champions,... and maybe a few more. Just to make sure what type of event you are looking for, can you name/describe me some examples of events you would like to see implemented as a new event-type?

    Yeah it's mostly about fighting, I get what you're saying. I wonder though, what else you could do in an mmo with enemies everywhere and a war-szenario happening all over the place. How are other games doing this? I don't know too much other mmos besides WoW and LotRO.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    Yeah it's mostly about fighting, I get what you're saying. I wonder though, what else you could do in an mmo with enemies everywhere and a war-szenario happening all over the place. How are other games doing this? I don't know too much other mmos besides WoW and LotRO.
    I don't actually dislike the way Guild Wars 2 does things. From a purely personal/entertainment view GW2 is great fun. Only the volume of combat is tiring for me.

    The game is largely... relentless. To sum it up succinctly.

    What I was suggesting in reply was that the context of the DEs doesn't functionally change the gameplay elements they are based around. Which is mostly non-stop combat. Even if you are to do "non combat" actions in a DE the player is often being shot, swung and poked at to some degree.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I don't actually dislike the way Guild Wars 2 does things. From a purely personal/entertainment view GW2 is great fun. Only the volume of combat is tiring for me.

    The game is largely... relentless. To sum it up succinctly.

    What I was suggesting in reply was that the context of the DEs doesn't functionally change the gameplay elements they are based around. Which is mostly non-stop combat. Even if you are to do "non combat" actions in a DE the player is often being shot, swung and poked at to some degree.
    Could you specificly say what you would suggest to change this?

    When I think of it I find this true for myself in certain areas (not Orr, since I think it should be like this in Orr): the respawn rate. Enemies (for me) respawn too fast and so I get this feeling of stress in areas where I'd like to see a room for rest. For example: I did a jumpingpuzzle where quite a few enemies + veteran-enemies were put in. It gets tiring when enemies spawn faster than you killing enemies. I really loved the missions in GW1 where dead enemies stayed dead for a while, giving me the chance to retreat for a moment or two.

    Is this the kind of "relentless" you are talking about or do you mean something different?

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    Could you specificly say what you would suggest to change this?

    When I think of it I find this true for myself in certain areas (not Orr, since I think it should be like this in Orr): the respawn rate. Enemies (for me) respawn too fast and so I get this feeling of stress in areas where I'd like to see a room for rest. For example: I did a jumpingpuzzle where quite a few enemies + veteran-enemies were put in. It gets tiring when enemies spawn faster than you killing enemies. I really loved the missions in GW1 where dead enemies stayed dead for a while, giving me the chance to retreat for a moment or two.

    Is this the kind of "relentless" you are talking about or do you mean something different?
    In areas such as orr, frost gorge (or w/e the place with jormag) southsun, and other such "We are in enemy territory now boys!" sort of zones, there should be nothing OTHER than combat, that's why you go there is to kill shit, it's a war.

    However, back on Farmer Bobs farm where there's bandits they should have more events like when you have to chase after the bunnies and capture them and run them back because Farmer Bobs kids LOVE rabbits and as such any rabbits being killed on his farm would completely <insert word i completely blanked on here> his children, however the rabbits are eating all his crops.

    Maybe have something like a rush in a tavern and you need to help him deliver drinks? Minor stuff like that with absolutely NO combat in it in appropriate places would only help the game imo. ESPECIALLY because they are going for a whole living breathing world sort of scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post

    Is this the kind of "relentless" you are talking about or do you mean something different?
    I imagine she means what you mentioned, in the constant respawns, in addition to the actiony style combat, and for the fact the game is almost all combat (jumping puzzles aside). I can see how someone can get fatigued by it. That's kind of why I think things like mini-games are actually more important than people realize. At the very least they break up the constant fighting.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    Could you specificly say what you would suggest to change this?
    - Reduce mob density in zones [non DE]
    - Reduce DE mob health by half, speed up wave intervals based on active participants
    - Introduce a 'pipsqueak' mechanic ala DDO or Tera
    - Enforce the need for multiple roles in complex DEs
    - Reduce aggro radius of gen pop mobs

    Think that might break up the tedium of non-stop 11111111111111111111111111111111111143 DEs and world travel.

    Is this the kind of "relentless" you are talking about or do you mean something different?
    Partly.

    I do not believe Anet have a respectable QA staff if any. Many of the zones and areas need additional gen pop passes. The game lacks a lot of design polish in that regard.

    However, the source of fatigue is quite simply the volume of combat. The game is from the word go wall-to-wall combat. Similar to Tera, which also was fatiguing due to an absolutely relentless thrust to murder every honey bee and mangy wolf.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    If you use aoe, your pet won't attack. They will only attack a specific target (a selected target). Also the F1 attack has been buggy at times. For the most part it has worked for me but on the occasion that it doesn't I'll swap pets and that usually will fix the problem.
    I've been meaning to ask. You mention swapping pets. I haven't seen how to get a second pet and then pet box doesn't say anything about it. How do i get another pet?

  11. #51
    Press K [default], brings up pet management window. F4 to swap pets in combat.

  12. #52
    Deleted
    AoE is better

    ot: to each his own, i think guild wars 2 is nice and all (i hate gw1), but im not hooked as some people here seem, still only lvl 16 even though i bought it ages ago, i think mmorpgs in general gets boring too fast for me and i need breaks of 1 month+ or in the case of WoW play 2 weeks, 2 weeks break or however long i feel.
    Last edited by mmocf391b05d2d; 2013-01-02 at 03:54 AM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellan View Post
    I've been meaning to ask. You mention swapping pets. I haven't seen how to get a second pet and then pet box doesn't say anything about it. How do i get another pet?
    Go find a "Juvenile <insert animal name here>", get close and hit either F on your keyboard, or click the popup that says Charm.

    If you're looking for some quick animals to pick up, there's a bear, bird, cat, and wolf in the Norn newbie area (at their respective shrines).

    NO, just no.
    Seeing that do dungeons on multiple 80s I must say that inorder of complexity it would be war>ele>ran>mes, if you count managing your pet it wouldbe ran>war>ele>mes (I haven't lvld the other classes to max yet)
    Warriors are simple as hell. A lot of them suck though, and decide to wear full DPS gear with no defensive traits into melee without knowing how to dodge. PROTIP: Don't go into melee range without either knowing how and when to dodge, or having some defensive stats in your traits/gear. You don't do good DPS while down.

    And I feel that Mesmers are fairly complex because you have to keep track of your phantoms and clones to play the class well. (I've played against bad mesmers and good mesmers. I don't want to fight good mesmers.) Elementalists are damn complex because you need to keep track of 4 different sets of weapon skills and have the reaction time to be able to quickly shift between stances to pick out specific abilities. Again, it's not hard to play, but I've played against good elementalists and bad ones, and the good ones are freaking crazy to see in action.

    The only real problem I have with the event system is that all DEs are the same basically. Attack/defend/collect. They are also sorta mindless attrition too.

    Gets very tiring if the "action combat" angle isn't too big a selling point for you. The whole game is figtfightfightfightcollectfightfightfightfight.

    Exhausting. I prefer DEs in small doses.
    I don't mind chains of DEs, especially if they're close together. Sometimes you just want to bash down massive groups of mobs, and DE chains in Orr are pretty good for that.

    On the other hand, after 10 or so events in Cursed Shore, you're getting a bit bored with MASSIVE WAVES OF RISEN and want something more interesting. I hope they learn some lessons from Fractals. There's some signs in there that they're quickly picking up on how to make fights more interesting mechanically. I think it's carrying over into other content as well. Did the Gates of Arah event chain recently, and was surprised because the end boss of the chain had some new attacks that definitely weren't there before.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    - Introduce a 'pipsqueak' mechanic ala DDO or Tera
    - Reduce aggro radius of gen pop mobs

    I do not believe Anet have a respectable QA staff if any. Many of the zones and areas need additional gen pop passes. The game lacks a lot of design polish in that regard.
    some interesting ideas, are you posting in the game's forums?

    Never heard of those (bold) words, can you explain them to me?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Willias View Post
    1.
    Warriors are simple as hell. A lot of them suck though, and decide to wear full DPS gear with no defensive traits into melee without knowing how to dodge. PROTIP: Don't go into melee range without either knowing how and when to dodge, or having some defensive stats in your traits/gear. You don't do good DPS while down.
    2.
    And I feel that Mesmers are fairly complex because you have to keep track of your phantoms and clones to play the class well. (I've played against bad mesmers and good mesmers. I don't want to fight good mesmers.) Elementalists are damn complex because you need to keep track of 4 different sets of weapon skills and have the reaction time to be able to quickly shift between stances to pick out specific abilities. Again, it's not hard to play, but I've played against good elementalists and bad ones, and the good ones are freaking crazy to see in action.
    So in general you're saying that you notice a big difference between good and bad players of the same class, oh my what a marvelous insight you've provided...

    1. Your entire idea is flawed. In wow a lot of people learned your beloved phrase "Dead dps is 0dps" sadly this doesn't apply to gw2 for a couple of basic reasons.
    First, that reasoning is regarding playing safe and not taking risks when for instance phase transitions are coming so you better run to safety than stay on the boss and do 15k more dps. Continueing on this, there are no designated healers in the game meaning that regardless of if you're good or bad, if you stand in the fire you'll die (and no healer will be able to pick you up since they're simply (close to) non existant)
    Second, if you don't know how to dodge you'll die even if you have 4k armor and 40k hp.

    2. You're talking about pvp? I wasn't, yet it still applies, the only hard part about mes in pvp is getting 4illu shatters off and oneshotting people...
    Keeping track of that (ele) stuff isn't harder than keeping track of other things, good indicators of time are how long your attunements are on cd, most "timing" comes natural if you practise a bit.
    Knowing your skills is crucial for all classes, it doesn't matter if an ele can bring 10more skills to the table than another class since all classes need to know all their skills anyway.

    Atm both mesmers and eles are one trick ponies. They try to burst you down quickly (just like thieves) if a mesmer fails he's gonna die soon, an ele won't die so fast since they're incredibly mobile and have good base of healing skills to help them pick themselves up after a fight to have another go.

    Your way of comparing complexity is weird, you start off with saying "a bad warrior" and then compare that to "a good mes" and "a good ele" yea ofcourse a bad warrior will play in a very dumbed down way in comparison to a good anything else.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    So in general you're saying that you notice a big difference between good and bad players of the same class, oh my what a marvelous insight you've provided...

    1. Your entire idea is flawed. In wow a lot of people learned your beloved phrase "Dead dps is 0dps" sadly this doesn't apply to gw2 for a couple of basic reasons.
    First, that reasoning is regarding playing safe and not taking risks when for instance phase transitions are coming so you better run to safety than stay on the boss and do 15k more dps. Continueing on this, there are no designated healers in the game meaning that regardless of if you're good or bad, if you stand in the fire you'll die (and no healer will be able to pick you up since they're simply (close to) non existant)
    Second, if you don't know how to dodge you'll die even if you have 4k armor and 40k hp.
    I have no idea what you're trying to say after "First,". In Fractals, there's no waypoint rushing. If you are downed or die, you're nearly worthless unless someone picks you back up or you rally. "Dead dps is 0 dps" doesn't just apply to long multi-phase fights. It applies to any aspect of these games.
    Second, if you have decent toughness/vitality, hits that will instantly down low HP/armor characters will not kill you in one hit, giving you room to make mistakes. Yes, you'll still need to dodge. But it becomes possible to back off and recover with decent toughness/vitality.

    And warriors are simple, no matter if you're good or bad at playing them. It's just by the nature of their skill sets. There's nothing complex about the mechanics of the character class.

    2. You're talking about pvp? I wasn't, yet it still applies, the only hard part about mes in pvp is getting 4illu shatters off and oneshotting people...
    Keeping track of that (ele) stuff isn't harder than keeping track of other things, good indicators of time are how long your attunements are on cd, most "timing" comes natural if you practise a bit.
    Knowing your skills is crucial for all classes, it doesn't matter if an ele can bring 10more skills to the table than another class since all classes need to know all their skills anyway.

    Atm both mesmers and eles are one trick ponies. They try to burst you down quickly (just like thieves) if a mesmer fails he's gonna die soon, an ele won't die so fast since they're incredibly mobile and have good base of healing skills to help them pick themselves up after a fight to have another go.

    Your way of comparing complexity is weird, you start off with saying "a bad warrior" and then compare that to "a good mes" and "a good ele" yea ofcourse a bad warrior will play in a very dumbed down way in comparison to a good anything else.
    What I said about bad warriors was unimportant and irrelevant, I'll admit. Let me try to address that.

    Warriors only seem complicated to play if you suck at dodging, or try to get away with stacking nothing but Berserker gear with no defensive traits. If you force yourself into positions where you're in melee and have to play perfectly to stay alive, you're going to run into trouble and it's going to make the warrior class seem more complex than it actually is.

    Perhaps the fights you've been in with mesmers and elementalists are different than the ones I've been in. I've found that Mesmers and Elementalists can be deadly and have high survivability if played right. They're certainly not one-trick ponies.

    I'm curious what you feel there is about warriors (and to a lesser extent rangers, though you mentioned pet control already) that makes them more complex than mesmers or elementalists?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    some interesting ideas, are you posting in the game's forums?

    Never heard of those (bold) words, can you explain them to me?
    Gen pop is short for general population. It's used in game QA to refer to the mundane mobs about the world without any goals attached to them. Typically in MMO development the gen pop of an area are given passes. That is to say a dev will ask QA [or simulate themselves] to identify clusters of mobs, resources, NPCs, etc that are perhaps too dense for a given area, respawn too quickly or not quick enough, react accordingly, etc.

    A 'pipsqueak' mechanic is an old dungeons & dragons design trick. The idea being that the big bad guy of your local area has an infinitely disposable supply of hapless, [somewhat] incompetence minions. Otherwise known as cannon fodder or 'pipsqueaks'.

    Think if you will of the stereotypical dragon's horde of clumsy goblins, Darth Vader's crosseyed stormtroopers or the thousand doom bots hurried before Victor Von Doom.

    Usually the idea is these pipsqueaks are trivial to kill but numerous. Pipsqueaks can overwhelm by numbers alone if not sort of taken out. This has the psychological effect of making players feel like "heroes" as they cut a swath through the minion ranks. The actual design purpose it serves is to inspire action with a minimum of investment by the player.

    For example, in Dungeons & Dragons one might fight through a dozen or so skeletons [which shatter satisfyingly after a few hits] to reach the Necromancer threat. Or in Tera where larger creatures typically have a retinue of smaller minions.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pip-squeak
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-01-02 at 05:23 PM.

  18. #58
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Gen pop is short for general population. It's used in game QA to refer to the mundane mobs about the world without any goals attached to them. Typically in MMO development the gen pop of an area are given passes. That is to say a dev will ask QA [or simulate themselves] to identify clusters of mobs, resources, NPCs, etc that are perhaps too dense for a given area, respawn too quickly or not quick enough, react accordingly, etc.

    A 'pipsqueak' mechanic is an old dungeons & dragons design trick. The idea being that the big bad guy of your local area has an infinitely disposable supply of hapless, [somewhat] incompetence minions. Otherwise known as cannon fodder or 'pipsqueaks'.

    Think if you will of the stereotypical dragon's horde of clumsy goblins, Darth Vader's crosseyed stormtroopers or the thousand doom bots hurried before Victor Von Doom.

    Usually the idea is these pipsqueaks are trivial to kill but numerous. Pipsqueaks can overwhelm by numbers alone if not sort of taken out. This has the psychological effect of making players feel like "heroes" as they cut a swath through the minion ranks. The actual design purpose it serves is to inspire action with a minimum of investment by the player.

    For example, in Dungeons & Dragons one might fight through a dozen or so skeletons [which shatter satisfyingly after a few hits] to reach the Necromancer threat. Or in Tera where larger creatures typically have a retinue of smaller minions.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pip-squeak
    Omg... YES, fucking YES give us pipsqueak mobs!! I've been dying for a mechanic like that for freaking ever on a boss yet no one ever does it!! let the hordes of undead just freaking swarm you in some events, that'd be absolutely GLORIOUS!!

    PS: The Charr 28 quest (Order of Whispers) has some of these pipsqueak mobs, when you approach a necromancer she summons a good 25 of them and they just fucking charge you, they deal the same damage as normal mobs but went down in like 2 shots.

    @Meledelion, the fact you say eles are one trick ponies is kinda just, well, wrong. Same with thieves, same with mes, same with every other prof you may believe is a one trick pony. It's not the -prof- it's the -build- that is a one trick pony. You can make them on any prof, and they all tend to have the same goal "Kill the person before they can react." And i'd say Willias has more of an idea what he's talking about than you do after reading your post...
    Last edited by Durzlla; 2013-01-02 at 05:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  19. #59
    What I mean is that people drag the flawed idea in arguments regarding survivability and dps. In WoW lots of people were throwing around "Dead dps is 0dps". Which on it's own is true, however this has nothing to do with itemisation or toon mechanics. Remember that in WoW everyone had his designated point of dominance due to the trinity. If you're a DPS you're going to itemise/spec around doing the most damage possible.

    The "DDi0D" doesn't apply in the way people are thinking of in GW2. In comparison you're sugesting that a rogue/hunter/mage would start stacking more stamina to live longer on a fight where there's a soft enrage timer and the boss does x more dmg over y time.

    Clearly that last part is very odd. So what is meant with "DDi0D" is that you should be the best dps there is but your survivability comes from playing smart.

    What you say about toughness/vit is correct, it's a buffer so you can play worse. However this sort of leniancy makes it so people experience a higher ceiling of possibilities at first but afterwards it's a lot harder to break through that ceiling and stop using vit/tough gear (eventhough they're good enough so they don't need the extra buffer)

    You're reversing when a war is bad with when a war is good. As I've just said the less surv gear you get away with, the better the player you are (or have to be). If you take this line of thinking and extend it a bit you realise that the margin for error on a war is a lot lower than the margin of error on mesmers and eles (as I've previously said eles mobility and base healing/protection mechanics give bigger margins of error and thus make the class easier to play. Same goes for the mesmer, they get extra survivability since they can push people in certain positions, you have to fight at range vs a mes since otherwise their shatters will wreck you without you having any time to react. This is a very strong position to be in, another thing that helps mesmers survive is their invisibility (all be it brief) + the uptime of a mes is higher due to illusions doing dmg while you're running away/positioning/... which other classes don't have.

    What you should be comparing is class mechanics, not their gear. If you strip all classes of gear and judge mechanics alone warriors have very few points of leniancy as opposed to others. This is what class complexity is about, the amount of skills you need to manage being double for an ele than most other classes is irrelevant since you should know all your skills regardless of class or wether or not they are active at the moment.

    Illusions aren't complex either, the only "hard" part about them is knowing which one will be overwritten and making sure you follow the same sequence of summoning so you don't overwrite the illusions you actually want.

    The fact that mesmers and eles have high surv and dmg has nothing to do with wether or not they are one trick ponies or not. The fact that they survive so well is a class mechanic. This means that surviving on one of those classes is easier and thus less complex.

    Warrior and ranger have the least inherit "outs" meaning that you have to play better to stay alive. Imo this makes them more complex.
    Most people seem to look at the war and ranger and notice that the step in point is low and then conclude that those classes aren't complex. The opposite happens with a mes or ele where the step in point is high.
    However this is only as long as you're being introduced to the classes, the moment you realise howmany basic outs there are for each class is the moment you realise warriors and rangers have a far bigger complexity since they require expert timing and mastery, whilst other classes have a buffer for bad play.

    @durz, you're talking about pvp good. In any spvp team all thieves eles and mesmers are running burst skills. Our good friend zitto has been complaining on the mesmer forums about being pigeonholed into being this way to be effective in sPvP. Same goes for thieves and eles, sure you can run another build and be ok in spvp but you're not going to win any r50+tournaments since nobody will take you in their team.

    But ofc that's pvp and has little to do with class mechanics which is why I would have prefered to ignore it. I know it's the build they run that makes them one trick ponies. But again as I've said, this doesn't change the basic mechanics.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-02 at 06:21 PM.

  20. #60
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    @Med well you can be more viable then the one trick pony builds in PvP, but the current "meta" isn't that? You can build a team around not having that and dominate (support ranger and thief ftw lol)

    As for the whole it's a buffer to get vit/toughness that's true PARTIALLY, if you're building to be a damage dealer with some utility/control tacked on you're absolutely right no argument. However if you're building more like a tank it a supporter you begin to be wrong because those stats are absolutely essentially and stats like power, precision and condi dmg take a back seat. My guild has a fractal team that farms fotm lv 30 every day and they have a warrior armed to the teeth with defensive gear and he just run around CCing and cock blocking all the mobs while the glass canon ranger, thief, and guardian evade and dodge all over the place as they deal damage. And I believe they said they had a necro as their "supporty" prof he's decked out in clerics gear and has 30pts in death and blood magic. They said they originally did it as a joke but it ended up being so effective they stuck with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

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