1. #1

    Disc Priest Hps(e)?

    Hey guys, I'm a disc/holy priest on a low population server. Within the last month or so I've switched from predominately holy to predominately disc.

    The problem i'm having right now is there is generally a large discrepancy between my hps and hps(e) which is, as you know what world of logs tracks for ranking information. I'm just curious if there is anything in my play style, other that being pretty bad at disc, which could account for that difference. I used to rank consistently as holy, and am a bit depressed the same can't be said for disc. Again, I know up uptime on rapture and ss is poor, working on it.

    here are a few kills/wipes from this week:
    /reports/rt-5g17lduqd8ckjtbt
    /reports/rt-ckjw8ixqens1fk7t


    just use worldoflogs . com before those links, as a first time poster and long time lurker it won't allow me to put up any urls.

  2. #2
    HPS tracks all absorption values as effective healing, including refreshed DAs.
    HPS(e) only tracks absorbs that are actual "effective healing"

    Similar to Resto Shaman: HPS includes SLT into the calculation, but HPS(e) doesn't because SLT doesn't actually "heal", it just "equalizes".

    Basically only pay attention to the HPS(e) number.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by HamSandwichFace View Post
    HPS tracks all absorption values as effective healing, including refreshed DAs.
    HPS(e) only tracks absorbs that are actual "effective healing"

    Similar to Resto Shaman: HPS includes SLT into the calculation, but HPS(e) doesn't because SLT doesn't actually "heal", it just "equalizes".

    Basically only pay attention to the HPS(e) number.

    so, is the discrepancy i'm seeing due to "spent" or unused absorbs that have timed out?

  4. #4
    i was under the impression that hps(e) took into account active time whereas hps didn't

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ambident View Post
    i was under the impression that hps(e) took into account active time whereas hps didn't
    this 10char

  6. #6
    HPS(e) is simply the total amount of healing done during an encounter divided by the encounter length.

    Skada measures DPS and HPS in this manner. Recount measures DPS and HPS by total DPS/HPS divided by your activity. So you can have very high HPS in recount, but if your activity is low, you will be much lower when you upload to WoL.

    Disc historically has lower activity time than other healers, so don't worry about your activity time so much. Worry about optimizing your play.

    In case math helps you out, I'll do some simplified napkin math to illustrate this:

    Say you defeated an encounter in 8min (480sec) with a total healing done as 35,000,000.

    Your HPS(e) will be 35,000,000 / 480 = 72,916 HPS(e)

    However, say your activity time was only 80% which is common for a disc priest.

    Your HPS (what recount would show) would be 35,000,000 / (480*0.8) = 91,145 HPS
    Last edited by Urumii; 2012-12-28 at 11:22 AM.

  7. #7
    Activity doesn't really matter in the first place and in addition to this WoL doesn't track activity properly for discs (something with absorb mechanics). Basically just ignore your HPS amount and look purely at your HPS(e) (not that this means a whole lot either).

  8. #8
    Effective HPS is HPS/Active Time. Absorbs do not refresh your active time and WoL needs to register a heal from you every 10 seconds to keep you fully active. When you break for SS and everything is absorbs you are gutting your active time. When you channel HoH is generally the only other time your active time suffers.

    Because you're worried about ranking, here's my advice. If you want to fix the discrepancy, cast a renew on a tank immediately prior to hitting your CD's and SS. Same with Hymn. Try to immediately follow up with a heal when these finish(atonement or PoH if damage warrants it).

    If you don't care about meter whoring then keep doing what you're doing, either way will be fine. A global every minute for SS and once a fight for Hymn is not giving up that much. Try to keep track of that 10 second window in your head.

  9. #9
    Disc has low active times on WoL mostly due to Atonement healing, which WoL doesn't count as "active" healing time, but still counts toward your overall healing. So the more Atonement healing you do, the bigger the difference will be between your HPS and HPSe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karragon View Post
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by blargh312 View Post
    Disc has low active times on WoL mostly due to Atonement healing, which WoL doesn't count as "active" healing time, but still counts toward your overall healing. So the more Atonement healing you do, the bigger the difference will be between your HPS and HPSe.
    Patently untrue. Atonement is a _HEAL event.

  11. #11
    HPS:
    Also known as healing per second. Counted either as healing per activity, healing per relevant activity or healing per fight duration.
    The difference is marginal, but may result in widely different results.

    - Healing per fight duration is (total healing done) / (duration of fight)
    - Healing per activity is (total healing done) / (duration of all casts, including GCDs for instants)
    - Healing per relevant activity is (total healing done) / (duration of all heals cast, including GCDs for instants)

    The simplest way to calculate HPS is to take the amount of healing done, and divide by the encounter length. This is fairly accurate, but it's an old complaint that this makes players with certain roles in the raid (like clicking buttons or running out with debuffs etc) lose meter positions.

    So often nowadays the listings can instead calculate healing per activity. And also generally track activity as a separate statistics. If you spent 100% of all available time in a raid hitting some action button, then your activity is 100%. But poor the guy who had to spend 20% of his time running around like a headless chicken dropping away debuffs can still compare meter positions.

    If you cast 1 GHeal worth 50k healing and no haste, that's 50k/2.5s = 20k HPS in the healing per activity scale.
    But if you then follow up with a shadow word pain, that HPS is now reduced to 50k/4s = 12.5k HPS in the healing per activity scale.
    For this reason, you may get better info by simply looking at relevant activity only. So heal spells go towards the HPS meter, while attack spells go towards the DPS meter.

    Personally I simply look at "healing done" instead of "healing done per second". That way you don't have to worry about how to interpret the numbers, and in time most things average out anyway making such weird ways to look at HPS redundant. HPS is just an e-peen thing, IMO.

    HPS(e):
    Effective Healing per Second. This is like above, but only counts the actual healing done.

    If my 50k GHeal is doing 40k overhealing, then I only actually healed for 10k. Regardless of which way I use to calculate HPS, that's a lot less than the above measurement. But no matter how you look at it a lot more relevant.

    For all healers, effective healing done is a lot more important than healing done. For disc in particular, if you put up a bunch of shields that do not absorb anything, then you might as well be idling around doing nothing. And if your holypriest healbomb Prayer of Healing on fully healed groups for no good reason, then that is equally wasteful. Sure you may be able to do great HPS that way, but you aren't doing anything good for the raid. So effective HPS is much more relevant.

    For shields, it's kinda tricky to see who owned a shield. The logs will tell you that a shield was absorbed (and thus not overhealing), but it won't tell you whose shield it was that was absorbed from. So the addons - or tracking sites like WoL - have to guess based on previous casts. If there is only one shielding healer, this is easy. If there are more than one, it's a lot more complicated. Different code may use different methods for guessing this. And offline sites like WoL has the whole spell cast history to look at, and can do it a lot more accurately than any on-the-fly addon like recount or skada. This may be a large reason why eHPS is so different from tool to tool, for a disc priest.

    Like with HPS, it's more interesting to look at effective healing done than it is to look at effective HPS.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    HPS:
    Also known as healing per second.
    By your following description of what you call "HPS(e)", stating that HPS(e) is "[...] like above, but only counts the actual healing done", your description of what you call "HPS" is extremely obtuse. What you call "HPS" is not what mods such as recount or skada, or sites like worldoflogs, call "HPS", so you describing it as "also known as" is a misrepresentation. What those tools call "HPS" does account for overhealing in their estimates.

    I personally do not understand why people insist upon talking about tools that show "HPS" as if they showed "total" or "raw" HPS without accounting for overhealing. It would be completely idiotic to include overhealing into an estimate of a healer's actual relevant preformance on an encounter, which is what these tools are attempting to measure, so - I would think obviously - none of them do it.

    Stop obfuscating the healing meter discussion by throwing around implications that this is not the case.

    It is really very irritating to read conversations about HPS when confusions like this are as prevalent as they are. There's always some guy who rolls in and says something to the effect of that "(the) HPS (presented by combat logging tools) includes overhealing", when - no - it doesn't. I could go in depth on the myriad of reasons why it makes no sense to treat the term "HPS" as if it includes overhealing, but I don't want to bore any readers further by adding another full page to this diatribe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Like with HPS, it's more interesting to look at effective healing done than it is to look at effective HPS.
    You use a lot of words to say very little and provide a lot of confusion. EHPS (in a tool like WoL) is just EHD divided by encounter length and multiplied by activity time. It's not more complicated than that.

    The only thing that really needs to be said to address the OP's concern (and it has been by other posters, though I still feel like reiterating it), is that WoL is really wonky about how it tracks you being active as a healer when you're not actually "healing" but just applying shields. If relying on a tool like recount, HPS is generally not a very useful measure for disc priests, because of this very same reason. It will often show disc priests doing wildly more HPS than other healers who are solidly outhealing them, because it can't properly track the activity time, so just take how the information is being presented with a grain of salt. For disc priests, you're better off looking at EHPS in WoL than at HPS for this reason (and just ignoring HPS altogether in recount and any other tool that can't deal with this properly).

    Disc priests are the only ones where this is usually the case, though. Its HPS measurement for other classes is generally accurate (caveats being blatantly obvious anomalies).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vrai View Post
    Because you're worried about ranking, here's my advice. If you want to fix the discrepancy, cast a renew on a tank immediately prior to hitting your CD's and SS. Same with Hymn. Try to immediately follow up with a heal when these finish(atonement or PoH if damage warrants it).

    If you don't care about meter whoring then keep doing what you're doing, either way will be fine. A global every minute for SS and once a fight for Hymn is not giving up that much. Try to keep track of that 10 second window in your head.
    What are you trying to communicate here? WoL already accounts for activity times in its rankings, and if it didn't your "advice" would be detrimental to achieving high rankings, not beneficial.

    If you really want to whore up the meters, your best bet is to screw over your raid by doing things like blowing your cooldowns to quickly outheal high-burst, low-danger damage, shielding heavy damage that can safely be outhealed instead of the more dangerous (but lower DPS) damage that kills, aoe healing while the tanks are dying, sniping heals, etc; y'know, sort of like how you top the dps meters!

    Being a meter whore myself, I shed a small tear every time I have to directly heal a tank instead of spamming more aoe heals on the raid, or stacking shields for an incoming raid-wide but essentially harmless spike, but sometimes it just has to be done to prevent a wipe. Lamentable, but what can 'ya do.

  13. #13
    I thought I explained the terms well, but you can't please everyone I guess. Win some, lose some.

    Of course, effective HPS is what addons list as HPS, because as you point out, raw HPS is pointless to track, and no tool does so.
    So data listed under "HPS" columns everywhere is actually "effective HPS". So what was the difference between HPS and eHPS then?
    Why is WoL wonky with not counting a shield as a heal, and why is casting some abilities lowering my average HPS while others don't?
    Why is HPS in one addon so different than HPS in another, even if you make sure to sample the same data?

    I thought I gave a stab at explaining that, listing various ways to normalize the results over activity, and different ways to count what is effective healing. If you feel it was confusing then I must apologize. Then I did not do a good enough job, and hard mentioning the undeniable fact that no HPS meter out there counts overhealing, and thus not being real HPS meters is an oversight. If you feel my post was fundamentally wrong, then I want to be re-educated.

    But if you want me to believe that HPS is not an abbreviation for "healing per second", then I'm flabbergasted.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Its not strange at all if you rank as Holy but not as Disc, since there are four times more Disc raiding current content (22% vs 5%).

  15. #15
    On world of logs, since that's what the question is about:

    - hps is healing done per second of active time (healing done * activity)
    - hps(e) is total healing done divided by fight length.

    Rankings are based on the hps(e) number. I don't know why so many people in this thread think there's anything else than that to it. If your activity is below 100%, hps will always be greater than hps(e).

    Absorb events do not seem to count towards activity (I'm speculating about this one) which means that whenever you use spirit shell, your activity will go down.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    What are you trying to communicate here? WoL already accounts for activity times in its rankings, and if it didn't your "advice" would be detrimental to achieving high rankings, not beneficial.

    If you really want to whore up the meters, your best bet is to screw over your raid by doing things like blowing your cooldowns to quickly outheal high-burst, low-danger damage, shielding heavy damage that can safely be outhealed instead of the more dangerous (but lower DPS) damage that kills, aoe healing while the tanks are dying, sniping heals, etc; y'know, sort of like how you op the dps meters[/url]!

    Being a meter whore myself, I shed a small tear every time I have to directly heal a tank instead of spamming more aoe heals on the raid, or stacking shields for an incoming raid-wide but essentially harmless spike, but sometimes it just has to be done to prevent a wipe. Lamentable, but what can 'ya do.
    Your meter whoring "advice" is just a description of healing farm content. The OP had trouble with having his hps(e) reflect what his hps was listed at. To FIX that, you need to increase active time since it was low and causing the difference. You lose active time when only absorbs are being picked up by the combat log. Thus, you need to register a heal to keep your active time ticking. I feel like I'm explaining exactly what I already said, so not sure where the confusion is.

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