Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Anyone else think the whole "war itself is the enemy of Mists" was a big fat lie?

    I haven't actually done the faction quests in 5.1, but we're coming up on Patch 5.2 and so far, from what I can see, the theme is still the same: Both factions have by and large rejected the Pandaren's philosophy and brought their war to Pandaria, and they still have not realized that they're fighting a war that's corrupting all of Pandaria.

    Blizzard has said that "war itself" would be the main enemy of Mists of Pandaria and that later on the theme would change to trying to find a way to end it and rebuild. These next couple of patches are their chance to prove they were serious. But does anyone else think they're not, and the "war that will consume all of Azeroth" will in fact come to pass in 6.0?

    We don't know for sure what the confirmed next expansion will be or how the rest of the Mists storyline will play out at this time, however:

    1. I am 99.99% confident that the Horde and Alliance will not come to peace even after Garrosh is overthrown. The faction war has become such an integral part of the game and has been going on for so long, I truly believe there will be no end to it (at least not until WoW 2/Warcraft 4).

    2. It's been confirmed that the Alliance and the Horde both will try to overthrow Garrosh - It hasn't been confirmed that he will be killable or that this will lead to good things however. I'm betting that something goes horribly wrong, and things are much more complicated than they first seem.

    3. It would be really interesting to see what roles Ji Firepaw & Aysa Cloudsinger will play, if any. They used to be friends before they joined opposite factions, perhaps they will play a role in trying to change the system?

    4a. I posted about this in another thread, but the one thing I view with utter disgust and resentment right now is Jaina's character development, seeing as how I for one really liked the old Jaina very much for her compassion and intelligence. I understand what everyone's saying, that her shift in personality is a natural response to grief and that she's tired of being betrayed - but I don't care, in my mind Jaina should NOT have to become like Garrosh in order to fight Garrosh. To me, this is further confirmation from Blizzard that lorewise the deck is stacked against anyone who does not have an authoritarian personality.

    4b. It's been speculated that the High Elves (as well as the more sympathetic Alliance members like Aunduin) will grow to distrust and even hate Jaina, for the same reasons they opposed the Blood Elves. Sha infestation occurs, and despite any sympathy we may have for what Jaina has been through, we have no choice but to stop her, possibly even kill her, sometime between now and the final battle against Garrosh.

    I could see Blizzard going this way with the story as well, since it opens up possibilities for a new Warcraft game (Alliance and Horde have gone through their own Mutual Assured Destruction & Arab Spring, individual races have broken up and/or withdrew from their factions, Azeroth lies in ruin, and the Burning Legion is laughing their asses off and taking a great deal of satisfaction that they were RIGHT).

    Anyone else who's seen the faction storylines for 5.1 & 5.2 have thoughts?

  2. #2
    A lot of conjecture I don't really care to philosophize about because we don't have enough facts, but honestly, I post because: how can you dislike how Jaina is turning out as of now? She's going through some crisis and it's going to be great to see how she comes to terms with it, and with herself, how she works this out. Besides, Anduin is taking a turn for the Jaina-ness himself, I usually don't like goody-do characters like Jaina has been and how Anduin is, but Anduin has really gotten to me.

    I mean you don't have to like a character to appreciate its development. I hate Garrosh and I hate its character, but I really like how Blizzard is developing him, just as they're developing Jaina and Anduin. You're being a bit harsh IMO. It keeps a story moving and flowing and one of the great things about MoP, in my opinion, is how Blizzard has done a great effort (for a change, I may add) at continued character development. Before it wasn't weird if a character was stuck in some kind of limbo for several years even, now we've seen more development in a few months than we have in the entirity of the game.

    Note I'm talking solely game here, not books.

  3. #3
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Cuthroat Alley, Stormwind
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by JFrombaugh View Post
    I haven't actually done the faction quests in 5.1,
    Play game. See the story. Speculation is ridiculous.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Icaras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    837
    I dunno man, I think you need to look into the lore a bit more.

    1st of all, I actually don't really recall seeing any statements from Blizz that MoP was going to be about "war itself is the enemy"...I'm pretty sure they openly said one of the big themes was Alliance vs Horde. I honestly can't recall seeing any statement where they said anything about war being the enemy. (And if you think about it, that kinda has happened anyway. War=Sha. Sha= Enemy.)

    As for Jaina....again, I think you really do need to look into the lore a bit more. Jania was fair pissed off after theramore, but the lore shows she had basically calmed down and was prepared to forgive the horde (At this stage both her and the Kirin Tor were neutral).

    THEN...well, then the Sunreavers essentially back stabbed her. Keep in mind that until this point, while Horde affiliated, they were still seen as being Kirin Tor 1st, Horde 2nd.
    Given what the Horde did recently, and then what appeared to be a complete betrayal from a faction she saw as allies, well, I don't think Jania is really GARROSHING out here. (The quests also note she was quite happy to simply arrest the Sunreavers, only those that resisted were killed. And Jaina, being the leader of the Kirin Tor, in the Kirin Tor city, is well within her rights to order the arrests. I'll also note that while i've not had the chance to do the horde side quests (working on getting a hordey to 90!) I've heard that seems to imply other forces may have been behiond the "sunreaver" actions).

    Ultimately, despite her lore, Jaina is still seen by most of the player base as being an "Alliance Hero" (She was in Warcraft 3, remember?) and so given the Allian ce vs Horde focus (NOT war is the enemy focus) I think it would be a silly bit silly to have her prancing around trying to get everyone to play nice.

    In war, sometimes bad things happen and sometimes people change.
    Last edited by Icaras; 2012-12-28 at 12:53 PM.
    You must show no mercy, Nor have any belief whatsoever in how others judge you: For your greatness will silence them all!
    -Warrior Wisdom

  5. #5
    Banned Trassk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Having beers with Dorothy
    Posts
    17,633
    putting what metzen said art blizzcon about 'war is the enemy' into context of what we see now, the way I see it is Garrosh, being the ultimate warmonger, he being the biggest reason for the current war, that is what it was more pushed towards. We the horde and alliance and our ignorance is what feeds this war, and so what brought chaos to pandaria.

    The problem I have with the current story is, that the pandaren have a powerful message that works against the ignorant races of the horde and alliance, that having a reason to fight for something is more important then just wanting to fight, that fight to protect home and family, for BOTH side should matter more then just wanting to go to war for the sake of it.

    Years ago, when the novel Beyond the Dark Portal was written, about when ner'zhul became warchief and tried to remake the horde to steal magical artifacts from the alliance, and when the dark portal was originally destroyed, when the horde was scattered due to the portal being broken, and Grom and Rexxar and a small army of orcs realized they were trapped on azeroth, Grom sweared they would strike at the alliance wherever they could, they would burn there homes and kill there families... and all the orcs cheered groms words... EXCEPT for Rexxar, who stood before Grom and said to him 'Fighting for the sake of fighting has no honor', spitting in groms face with disgust at what he wanted to do. At that point, Rexxar left the horde.

    this is a lesson and this now is history repeating. fighting for the sake of fighting is f**king stupid, and the pandaren teach a lesson that fighting for a good reason makes it ok, while fighting just because your an aggressive little turd (like Garrosh - just like his father) is the worst reason to fight.
    Last edited by Trassk; 2012-12-28 at 01:00 PM.

  6. #6
    Legendary!
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    6,766
    Quote Originally Posted by JFrombaugh View Post
    2. It's been confirmed that the Alliance and the Horde both will try to overthrow Garrosh - It hasn't been confirmed that he will be killable or that this will lead to good things however. I'm betting that something goes horribly wrong, and things are much more complicated than they first seem.
    ?
    Probably
    What can we say, Azeroth is a terrible place.
    Bad stuff just loves to happen at the most absolute worst time possible.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 02:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Icaras View Post
    (working on getting a hordey to 90!) I've heard that seems to imply other forces may have been behiond the "sunreaver" actions).
    Not really, a quest giver pretty much says it is only with Sunreaver aid that the uber secret mission was possible.

    Though its fair to say that most of the Sunreavers were not aware of the mission.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #7
    Warchief Saluin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    The Slaughtered Lamb
    Posts
    2,196
    Please do 5.1, doesn't matter if you are Horde or Alliance the theme of "war" is there. If that doesn't show you, then what will ?

  8. #8
    5.1 has been amazing so far. The lore and story are just sucking me in and I want to see more

    On Topic: If you have not done it, go do it. I guarantee you will come back and apologize.

  9. #9
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    13,020
    "War is the true enemy" is just not really a valid premise in this case. Let's be honest: MoP's plot has boiled down to a guy named Garrosh Hellscream trying to commit genocide against the goodly humans, dwarves and elves of the world, who have even christened their main force on Pandaria a "shield" to defend the land and its people from Horde aggression.

    How can they push a "war is bad" plot when that isn't the point they've been making at all? "The Horde is bad" (or at least, "batshit evil conquerors in positions of power is bad") seems to be the angle they're shooting for.

    Though, 5.1 was an example of somewhat layered conflict done right.

  10. #10
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Castiel's Army
    Posts
    5,363
    I dislike Garrosh and I cannot wait to kill/dispose of him from his leadership position over the Horde. As many people will freak out over a statement like this, I have to say I agree with you about Jaina as well. I liked her before, I do not like what they've done to her character now. People wanted to get rid of her character before? I'd like to get rid of her now. I doubt that would happen though.

    I believe the next expansion will have both factions fighting the Burning Legion and will have to work together somewhat in order to keep Azeroth from being destroyed so I can see why Blizzard would be disposing of Garrosh in order to somewhat bring the factions together. However, making Jaina like she is now is pretty much certain to keep the two factions warring after he's gone. Irony, isn't it? The biggest supporter of peace between the factions before now will likely become what keeps peace from occurring in the next expansion?

    I'd find it extremely doubtful that the blood elves would ever be able to forgive her.

  11. #11
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    11,165
    I haven't actually done the faction quests in 5.1
    You really should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  12. #12
    Well, Blizz is releasing patches much sooner, so if you think about it, 5.1 + 5.2 would have traditionally all been a 5.1 major patch.

    The point being that we are still at the beginning of the expansion. The expansion will end with Garrosh being defeated, and with that, I think the primary amount of war-lust will dissipate from both factions.

    War will still continue, but it will no longer be a rage driven conquest for both sides, but rather petty squabbles over territory.

  13. #13
    5.1 is almost all about the horde/alliance conflict. At least watch the videos if your not going to do the quest line, the lore quests were really well done imo. Also, 5.2 will have a lot to do with the Kirin Tor/Sunreaver conflict. MoP has pretty much been all about war so far and will continue to be in the next patch.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JFrombaugh View Post
    I haven't actually done the faction quests in 5.1, but we're coming up on Patch 5.2 and so far, from what I can see, the theme is still the same: Both factions have by and large rejected the Pandaren's philosophy and brought their war to Pandaria, and they still have not realized that they're fighting a war that's corrupting all of Pandaria.

    Blizzard has said that "war itself" would be the main enemy of Mists of Pandaria and that later on the theme would change to trying to find a way to end it and rebuild. These next couple of patches are their chance to prove they were serious. But does anyone else think they're not, and the "war that will consume all of Azeroth" will in fact come to pass in 6.0?

    We don't know for sure what the confirmed next expansion will be or how the rest of the Mists storyline will play out at this time, however:

    1. I am 99.99% confident that the Horde and Alliance will not come to peace even after Garrosh is overthrown. The faction war has become such an integral part of the game and has been going on for so long, I truly believe there will be no end to it (at least not until WoW 2/Warcraft 4).

    2. It's been confirmed that the Alliance and the Horde both will try to overthrow Garrosh - It hasn't been confirmed that he will be killable or that this will lead to good things however. I'm betting that something goes horribly wrong, and things are much more complicated than they first seem.

    3. It would be really interesting to see what roles Ji Firepaw & Aysa Cloudsinger will play, if any. They used to be friends before they joined opposite factions, perhaps they will play a role in trying to change the system?

    4a. I posted about this in another thread, but the one thing I view with utter disgust and resentment right now is Jaina's character development, seeing as how I for one really liked the old Jaina very much for her compassion and intelligence. I understand what everyone's saying, that her shift in personality is a natural response to grief and that she's tired of being betrayed - but I don't care, in my mind Jaina should NOT have to become like Garrosh in order to fight Garrosh. To me, this is further confirmation from Blizzard that lorewise the deck is stacked against anyone who does not have an authoritarian personality.

    4b. It's been speculated that the High Elves (as well as the more sympathetic Alliance members like Aunduin) will grow to distrust and even hate Jaina, for the same reasons they opposed the Blood Elves. Sha infestation occurs, and despite any sympathy we may have for what Jaina has been through, we have no choice but to stop her, possibly even kill her, sometime between now and the final battle against Garrosh.

    I could see Blizzard going this way with the story as well, since it opens up possibilities for a new Warcraft game (Alliance and Horde have gone through their own Mutual Assured Destruction & Arab Spring, individual races have broken up and/or withdrew from their factions, Azeroth lies in ruin, and the Burning Legion is laughing their asses off and taking a great deal of satisfaction that they were RIGHT).

    Anyone else who's seen the faction storylines for 5.1 & 5.2 have thoughts?
    So let's see, you haven't played any of the 5.1 story yet your commenting on how Blizzard has failed to provide "war". Stop pulling stuff outta yer ass and commenting on stuff you have no knowledge of thereby creating a useless thread.

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Bathory's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,573
    I stopped at "Didn't actually do the 5.1 quests".
    You now stand before the Countess.
    A story of Firsts from around the world:
    http://thingsihaveneverdone.wordpress.com/

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JFrombaugh View Post
    I haven't actually done the faction quests in 5.1, but we're coming up on Patch 5.2 and so far, from what I can see, the theme is still the same: Both factions have by and large rejected the Pandaren's philosophy and brought their war to Pandaria, and they still have not realized that they're fighting a war that's corrupting all of Pandaria.

    Blizzard has said that "war itself" would be the main enemy of Mists of Pandaria and that later on the theme would change to trying to find a way to end it and rebuild. These next couple of patches are their chance to prove they were serious. But does anyone else think they're not, and the "war that will consume all of Azeroth" will in fact come to pass in 6.0?

    We don't know for sure what the confirmed next expansion will be or how the rest of the Mists storyline will play out at this time, however:

    1. I am 99.99% confident that the Horde and Alliance will not come to peace even after Garrosh is overthrown. The faction war has become such an integral part of the game and has been going on for so long, I truly believe there will be no end to it (at least not until WoW 2/Warcraft 4).

    2. It's been confirmed that the Alliance and the Horde both will try to overthrow Garrosh - It hasn't been confirmed that he will be killable or that this will lead to good things however. I'm betting that something goes horribly wrong, and things are much more complicated than they first seem.

    3. It would be really interesting to see what roles Ji Firepaw & Aysa Cloudsinger will play, if any. They used to be friends before they joined opposite factions, perhaps they will play a role in trying to change the system?

    4a. I posted about this in another thread, but the one thing I view with utter disgust and resentment right now is Jaina's character development, seeing as how I for one really liked the old Jaina very much for her compassion and intelligence. I understand what everyone's saying, that her shift in personality is a natural response to grief and that she's tired of being betrayed - but I don't care, in my mind Jaina should NOT have to become like Garrosh in order to fight Garrosh. To me, this is further confirmation from Blizzard that lorewise the deck is stacked against anyone who does not have an authoritarian personality.

    4b. It's been speculated that the High Elves (as well as the more sympathetic Alliance members like Aunduin) will grow to distrust and even hate Jaina, for the same reasons they opposed the Blood Elves. Sha infestation occurs, and despite any sympathy we may have for what Jaina has been through, we have no choice but to stop her, possibly even kill her, sometime between now and the final battle against Garrosh.

    I could see Blizzard going this way with the story as well, since it opens up possibilities for a new Warcraft game (Alliance and Horde have gone through their own Mutual Assured Destruction & Arab Spring, individual races have broken up and/or withdrew from their factions, Azeroth lies in ruin, and the Burning Legion is laughing their asses off and taking a great deal of satisfaction that they were RIGHT).

    Anyone else who's seen the faction storylines for 5.1 & 5.2 have thoughts?
    I'm fairly certain jaina has come to terms with her rage im sure there is even a voice over mentioning it. The blood elves leader said it the best the horde exists because the alliance will not accept them...but they accept pandaren(beasts) and worgen(beasts)...so??

    As far as 5.2/5.3 is concerned cause we know blizzard won't push any expansion past 5.3 and we will sit on that for a year is 5.2 is gonna be a shitty filler raid where the real story comes from the dailies themself not the raid. And 5.3 is gonna be a cluster because there gonna choke you with it and in the siege of orgimmar have a bunch of made up bosses that never came to be but mention a name that won't appear n'zoth....or y'shaarj(why mention his name and see we have a missing sha head but never show it.)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivellana View Post
    I dislike Garrosh and I cannot wait to kill/dispose of him from his leadership position over the Horde. As many people will freak out over a statement like this, I have to say I agree with you about Jaina as well. I liked her before, I do not like what they've done to her character now. People wanted to get rid of her character before? I'd like to get rid of her now. I doubt that would happen though.

    I believe the next expansion will have both factions fighting the Burning Legion and will have to work together somewhat in order to keep Azeroth from being destroyed so I can see why Blizzard would be disposing of Garrosh in order to somewhat bring the factions together. However, making Jaina like she is now is pretty much certain to keep the two factions warring after he's gone. Irony, isn't it? The biggest supporter of peace between the factions before now will likely become what keeps peace from occurring in the next expansion?

    I'd find it extremely doubtful that the blood elves would ever be able to forgive her.
    Yes, exactly. For me, Jaina has effectively gone from being a highly sympathetic & likeable role model for my Priest to the very type of authority figure I resent in MMOs in general. I think what pisses me off more than anything is that Blizzard perhaps would have just left her alone if so many people hadn't complained about her being too soft hearted.

    WOW Insider's Matt Rossi wrote a REALLY good article about the whole faction war quandary here: http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/06/09/my...ias-as-needed/. I agree with him, 110%...(although I would point out Garrosh's Horde is not the only offender in this department by any means)

    My point is that the warnings we've been recieving from the Pandarens (and even from other neutral factions before Mists) are kind of like warnings from an airplane in the sky warning a guy on a boat that he is headed for a waterfall if he doesn't change course - at some point, if the warnings are not heeded, probabilities "kick in" and the chance of going over the falls is 100%. So the longer we go without seeing a really major questline that involves your character actively trying to make peace, idealistically rebelling against their faction, etc. the more obvious it will become that wherever the point of no return is, the Alliance & Horde are already past it & Blizzard fully intends to make both factions more or less evil.
    Last edited by JFrombaugh; 2012-12-28 at 04:24 PM.

  18. #18
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
    Posts
    10,312
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivellana View Post
    I dislike Garrosh and I cannot wait to kill/dispose of him from his leadership position over the Horde. As many people will freak out over a statement like this, I have to say I agree with you about Jaina as well. I liked her before, I do not like what they've done to her character now. People wanted to get rid of her character before? I'd like to get rid of her now. I doubt that would happen though.
    The worst part is I started calling this as soon as Blizzard started talking about how they had badass things in store for her. I had BC flashbacks to Illidan and Kael. But no, no, the faction heroes had to constantly whine and bitch about there being a character with enough operating brain cells to realize that the faction war is just doing the Legion's job for them. Hell, I hope beyond all reason that the next expansion cinematic is the Legion ripping both factions a new one until the new leveling content starts with the factions reduced to their capitals, roughly 1/5 of their end-of-MoP forces, and the racial leaders, and that the starting storyline is a fight for survival.

    If Blizz is really trying to push the idea that war is the enemy this expansion, we need to see an all-out war between Red and Blue have very real, very dire consequences for the next story arc. Faction cooperation should be forced if the powers that be can't scrape together enough smarts to make the logical decision to focus on things that want to reduce Azeroth to a smoldering husk, and the questing content could see the Alliance and Horde join up with the Sha'tar. PvP can be easily justified as war games to keep the troops sharp and extremist holdouts on both sides who refuse to bury the hatchet (justifiably so, after MoP, but at a horrible time what with their reduced forces and the full-scale Legion attack).

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  19. #19
    1. While I doubt the war will 'end' after MOP, I think it will be toned down to BC or Wrath levels. Smaller isolated conflicts, but not total war like we have now. It will never completely go away, but I expect the war to subside some as whatever big villain the next expansion has to throw at us emerges.

    2. That's nothing but blind speculation on your part. Sure, it's 'possoble' Garrosh will live but I see it as highly unlikely blizz will pull a bait and switch with the expansion's final boss. We won't know for sure until SoO hits live, or we at least get garrosh' datamined audio for that patch when it comes, but I really doubt they'll do that. I think we can say with certainty that Garrosh will at least be deposed as Warchief and the Horde rebels will claim Orgrimmar.

    3. This is actually a good point. I'm expecting them to show up again at some point in MOP. Perhaps being part of how the horde and alliance come together to unite against Garrosh.

    4. I can see why some people would dislike her shift in character, but I think it's completely understandable. This is a woman who sacrificed so much for peace, only for it to blow up in her face. She let her father die, tried so hard to forge a peace, only for her city to get mana bombed by Garrosh. I can understand if you don't like it, but I think that giving Jaina a snapping point makes her more of a three dimensional character instead of a mary sue always does the right thing. And her story in MOP isn't done yet. It's possible she'll end up as a villain, but I doubt it will come to that. I don't see anything yet to suggest the high elves or Anduin or anyone is going to 'turn against' her. We don't know where her character is going, so while speculation can be fun let's be sure not to jump to conclusions.

    5. As others said go play the 5.1 quests. You can't comment on the story if you don't keep up with it.

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral WarpKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,050
    ZOMG ITS A BIG FAT LIE

    I HAVENT DONE THE QUESTS IN THE CURRENT PATCH BUT I STILL THINK ITS A LIE JUST BECAUSE

    Eh, forgive me for being skeptical
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Tumblrists gonna Tumble.
    Someone got there [sic] shit seriously triggered.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •