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  1. #21
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderchain View Post
    Crit > Mastery > Haste
    with Normal Gear. When u begin to get Heroic T14 Gear, its Crit > haste > Mastery.
    Anything to back this statement up with?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Anything to back this statement up with?
    I actually do, but according to ure QQ post about BM hunters needs nerf, and Surv needs buff.
    And anothe thread where you tell us, you just rerolled Hunter.

    Im just leaving this thread alone.

    Happy new year
    Last edited by Thunderchain; 2012-12-29 at 03:11 PM.
    Main(s): Enha sham and Hunter. Alts: Mage / Every other class, all are 90 (Used for professions only)

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderchain View Post
    I actually do, but according to ure QQ post about BM hunters needs nerf, and Surv needs buff.
    And anothe thread where you tell us, you just rerolled Hunter.

    Im just leaving this thread alone.

    Happy new year
    Instead of personal attacks, please, feel free to back it up.

    Regardless - Haste is such a wonky stat to sim, and it assumes a 100% rigid and non-error-y rotation. For people who are used to femaledwarf, you know that the reason haste sometimes rises in value, is because the sim suddenly managed to fit another cobra or auto shot into the timeframe due to the haste. In a real scenario, this is not going to happen, and that is why people over and over again have said the same thing:
    Haste is overvalued.

    Now, regardless, if it's a pure singletarget fight, you're going to want to play BM as long as you have 4 set (I'm assuming most people who are atleast halfway serious about their char by now has 4 set).

    If it's a multitarget fight, you want to play survival.
    Now, consider this - the fight sims are always assuming a *single* target. It is a clear DPS boost to keep serpent sting up on a secondary target if there is two (stone guards), and it assumes absolutly no AOE - both of these are going to favor mastery far more than they're going to favor haste, if they favor haste at all. Which means that if the two stats are as close as we assume they are (literally at the point where it's barely even noticeable), then mastery will be way ahead of haste, as soon as you start aoeing or keeping 2x serpent sting up, thus increasing your elemental damage.

    Now, the fights where you are purely single targetting are, assuming heroic:
    None in MSV (except garajal if you have a shitton of locks/mages/shadow priests/boomkins to go inside).
    Vizier and blade lord in HoF.
    Lei Shi in Terrace.

    The above fights favors haste for survival. But they favor BM far more than surv, and as it's LITERALLY the same fucking spec with differently named abilities (and a clunky-ass pet added on to BM), you're not doing anyone any favors by sticking to surv.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderchain View Post
    I actually do, but according to ure QQ post about BM hunters needs nerf, and Surv needs buff.
    And anothe thread where you tell us, you just rerolled Hunter.

    Im just leaving this thread alone.

    Happy new year
    I wasn't trying to criticize you/your statement, and I'm sorry if it came across that way - I just genuinly wanted to know. I'm playing a Hunter as an alt, and because I enjoy min/maxing my numbers, I'm interested in anything that can help me do that. I don't see why the fact that I'm new to hunter would make things any different.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 05:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    ...
    I'm curious, do you have any sims or otherwise to back this up? Would like to see the exact numbers on how much multidotting/AoE etc. favors mastery.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    I'm curious, do you have any sims or otherwise to back this up? Would like to see the exact numbers on how much multidotting/AoE etc. favors mastery.
    So like... the man says that our sims don't give an accurate representation of haste, and that it assumes a single target fight.
    You ask for sims detailing haste vs mastery for a multi-target fight.
    Are you serious? Do you have trouble with reading comprehension or are you just dense? For starters, let's get rid of some misinformation.

    1) Haste has no effect on SrS or BA tick speed.
    2) Dire Beast is not the optimal talent choice so the effect of haste on that is largely unimportant. Also the extra hit is not guaranteed.
    3) The change in passive focus generation from haste is very low. Something like .05 focus/sec per 500 rating. That translates to ~.25 focus/sec for your suggested difference of 2500, adding up to ~100 focus over the course of a normal fight. Compare that to ~400 from viper venom, ~1k from cobra, ~1.2k from fervor, ~1.7k from baseline passive.

    So, lets think about this a little? With 2 targets, ideally you want to use cobra shot to keep SrS on both, continue dumping focus with arcane shot, and never have to reapply. In practice, you'll focus cap constantly trying to do this. You have to reapply to one of the two targets roughly once every 25 seconds if done nearly perfectly. Haste actually exacerbates this and forces you to reapply more often. You also shouldn't be multishotting unless you're applying SrS, so you're not using that much more focus than usual.

    With 4+ targets, you're not using explosive shot unless LnL procs. You're spamming multishot, ideally trying to get it to land directly after SrS ticks on everything. Yeah, the extra focus from haste helps here, but you can't seriously be arguing that it outweighs the benefits of mastery when SrS is 30% of your damage, boosting overall elemental damage to around 70%. Also, since you want to be firing your multishots back to back, 3.1 seconds after the last (ideal for prolonged aoe), or 6.1 seconds after the last, you're aiming for a cobra shot cast speed that lets that happen naturally. In my experience higher than about 2k haste can actually be detrimental here.


    Also yeah, don't multishot -> cobra -> multishot for prolonged aoe. People never adjusted to the SrS change. SrS ticks are now only about 15% less damage than multi+spread damage, so if you're reapplying a moment before SrS ticks you're just losing damage.
    Last edited by Flustered; 2012-12-29 at 06:25 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    So like... the man says that our sims don't give an accurate representation of haste, and that it assumes a single target fight.
    You ask for sims detailing haste vs mastery for a multi-target fight.
    Are you serious? Do you have trouble with reading comprehension or are you just dense?
    Are you?
    You can model AoE through SimulationCraft. And even if the haste calculations aren't incredibly accurate, such a sim would still give a rough idea of the difference and would still serve a very valid purpose. If haste scales better than mastery with gear (as multiple in this thread have claimed), the haste vs. mastery thing could definitely turn into something interesting on a fight per fight basis in future tiers (assuming serious HC progression). How much mastery pulls ahead on both short and long phases of AoE would definitely be a contributing factor to this, and there aren't really any better way to figure out HOW MUCH mastery pulls ahead on AoE other than simming it.

    I also can't imagine the 4% (just to put it in perspective) I mentioned earlier to be enough to warrant stacking mastery, especially if assuming short AoE phases making up a non-significant part of the encounter and if haste *does* turn out to scale better at higher gear levels. (I'm still interested in actual proof that it will though).
    Last edited by Evela; 2012-12-29 at 06:54 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    I wasn't trying to criticize you/your statement, and I'm sorry if it came across that way - I just genuinly wanted to know. I'm playing a Hunter as an alt, and because I enjoy min/maxing my numbers, I'm interested in anything that can help me do that. I don't see why the fact that I'm new to hunter would make things any different.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 05:50 PM ----------


    I'm curious, do you have any sims or otherwise to back this up? Would like to see the exact numbers on how much multidotting/AoE etc. favors mastery.
    Well, it's mostly based on a logical assumption - but we can take a look anyway:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ne/?s=51&e=431 here's an "ideal" log of me as surv on lei shi normal, right after the hotfix to serpent sting. Rank 6 still, so assume that this is quite close to the high-end output that most raiders with half heroics etc are going to be able to reach, and distributions should be correct.

    Now, I'm doing 76K dps here, breakdown between me and my pets:

    Hunter: 61K.
    Pet: 11K.
    Dire Beast: 3K.
    Stampede: 1K.
    As you can see, combined, my pets do about 25% of the overall damage. Dire beast is only affected by haste if you can reach 3.8K or more, to get a reliable extra tick.
    Your pet and stampede scale in the same way with haste (faster autoattacks, faster energy regen, both very very minor).
    Now, using my own damage as a breakdown, we get:
    26.3% Explo shot.
    14.2% Auto shot.
    12.9% SS.
    10.4% AS.
    9.5% Cobra.
    5.7% Kill shot.
    5.2% Black Arrow.
    4.8% AMOC.
    4.7% Glaive toss (initial).
    3.9% Glaive toss (returning).
    1.1% stormlash.
    1% ISS.
    0.1% trap.

    Now, out of that, we have ~66.4% elemental damage, and 33.6% physical damage.
    Which means that roughly 40K of my DPS is elemental in that parse.
    Now, out of those 40K, 13% of that is Serpent sting ticks - which means 5.2K dps.

    This means that a hunter doing 76K singletarget DPS, has 5.2K of that contributed by serpent sting.
    1% mastery adds 1% elemental damage, which means that 1% mastery adds 0.66% damage in my case.
    Now, if we were to add 5K DPS through a second serpent sting, that's an increase of 5K elemental DPS, and suddenly, instead of 40K/20K, we have 45K/20K - raising the distribution of elemental vs physical damage from the hunter to ~70/30%.
    Which means that for each serpent sting more active throughout the fight, mastery becomes worth 0.04% more (from 0.66% dps increase per point, to 0.70%). This is a relative growth in the strength of mastery by about 6%.

    Above calculations may be slightly off, as I'm not 100% ceartain that my assumptions are right, and the log is not using a baseline mastery amount (8%/0 rating), but have significantly more.
    But it seems fairly reasonable anyway. If someone can find the flaws if any, feel free to point them out.

    Conclusion:

    For each serpent sting more active, mastery is worth 6% more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    2) Dire Beast is not the optimal talent choice so the effect of haste on that is largely unimportant. Also the extra hit is not guaranteed.

    Also yeah, don't multishot -> cobra -> multishot for prolonged aoe. People never adjusted to the SrS change. SrS ticks are now only about 15% less damage than multi+spread damage, so if you're reapplying a moment before SrS ticks you're just losing damage.
    I have to point these two things out -
    Dire beast is the optimal talent choise for (singletarget) survival. Thrill of the hunt is the optimal for multi-target. Fervor is never the optimal choise.
    Serpent spread will EXTEND your current serpent sting debuff, NOT refresh it.
    What this means is, imagine we have a serpent sting:
    It lasts 15 secs, ticks every 3 secs:
    3
    6
    9
    12
    15
    Now we fire a multishot on top of it. Instead of refreshing (meaning you'd have to wait another 3 seconds for it to tick), it extends to 17 seconds, and will tick at:
    2
    5
    8
    11
    14
    17.

    Adding another multishot to it, will waste a tick of sting, HOWEVER, only if it falls off the target. You'll have:
    1
    4
    7
    10
    13
    16

    and then it goes back to the normal -
    3
    6
    9
    12
    15
    Which means it's refreshed into the
    2
    5
    8
    11
    14
    17
    on the next shot.

    What this means is, that unless you let your serpent stings actually FALL OFF the target's you're AOE'ing, you will never "lose" serpent sting ticks. And usually, you won't be stopping your multishots untill they're dead, or they will die far sooner than your stings will fall off.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2012-12-29 at 07:06 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    If someone can find the flaws if any, feel free to point them out.
    Why on earth are you using Dire Beast, especially on Lei Shi

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    Why on earth are you using Dire Beast, especially on Lei Shi
    Because it was the first pull of the evening, and I had just respec'd survival to test it. Noticing that I have dire beast instead of Thrill of the hunt doesn't matter jack shit when you're halfway through the encounter - and to be honest, I probably wouldn't have cared alot anyway, considering it was normal mode.
    Regardless, I can see you starting an argument in favor of fervor now, and I'm just going to go ahead and say it right here and now - it is not stronger than Thrill of the hunt for AOE (or downtime bosses as Lei Shi), or Dire beast for singletarget, unless you have an absolutely miniscule amount of haste.
    The implications it makes for your cycles with the extra focus (that you have to work into your shots every 30 seconds) are gigantic. Besides that, in order to optimally use it, you need to make damn sure that your pet also gains the full benefit from it, to activate wild hunt.
    In a singletarget scenario, it simply isn't viable, even if it sims slightly higher. Our rotations are too focus positive to start with, what with free explosive shots, much higher focus return on cobra shot than in MOP, serpent sting focus regen, and explosive shot cost cut in half.
    The only scenario I'd consider using Fervor, is on AOE, and thrill of the hunt is obviously so much better there.
    Perhaps on Sha for bursting down the platform-panda's, but I'm not even sure about that, to be honest.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2012-12-29 at 07:31 PM.

  10. #30
    I don't know why people are so reliant on sims these days. Should I eat food right now ? dunnu, lemme sim it real quick and find out. If you're hungry, eat. Use logic. If something is claimed which goes against logic, THEN sim it to make sure. Because of sims there was a whole uproar about BM as well where ppl were claiming haste was better cuz MR. robit told me 2. Or a sim said so. Get it through your heads, sims canNOT reliably simulate haste, period. The reasons have already been given, if you can't understand english then google translate it.

    Why is mastery better for BM ? ppl would immediately say well ~50% of your dmg is from your pets. Well ~65% or more damage as SV is elemental damage. Logic dictates mastery is better, and gets even better on multi targets, which is majority of the fights in this tier. Why ? because haste scales slowly with focus regen and it doesn't affect srs ticks. Mastery boosts your signature shot, your buffed like crazy main dot that has near 100% uptime, and also your secondary dot. Why wouldn't it be better ? That's a layman's perspective but you get the point. Refer to Draco's post for logs/numbers.

    @DanielBrems, there is nothing wrong with wanting to min/max. I do so as well on all my alts. But I don't have double standards, like you seem to have. If I had an alt hunter, and I was progressing through normal modes with an alt run or another guild or w/e. I would want to min/max in any way I can. Not just come to the forums, ask which spec is the best spec on single target. Find out it's BM. Then go back and play SV. (Just an example) If it's a single target fight and you care that much about min/maxing DONT play sv. Play BM. And multi target favors mastery with SV. So crit>mastery>haste will get you through ALL the fights in this tier with both specs perfectly optimized. What more do you want ?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 01:48 PM ----------

    And dire beast is the best option for SV single target. And why wouldn't you use it on lei shi ? Unless you're having trouble with bursting down the adds for some reason. Shouldn't be SV in the first place since it has ramp up time but you use DB as BM and it works out fine, why wouldn't it for SV ?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    I don't know why people are so reliant on sims these days. Should I eat food right now ? dunnu, lemme sim it real quick and find out. If you're hungry, eat. Use logic. If something is claimed which goes against logic, THEN sim it to make sure. Because of sims there was a whole uproar about BM as well where ppl were claiming haste was better cuz MR. robit told me 2. Or a sim said so. Get it through your heads, sims canNOT reliably simulate haste, period. The reasons have already been given, if you can't understand english then google translate it.

    Why is mastery better for BM ? ppl would immediately say well ~50% of your dmg is from your pets. Well ~65% or more damage as SV is elemental damage. Logic dictates mastery is better, and gets even better on multi targets, which is majority of the fights in this tier. Why ? because haste scales slowly with focus regen and it doesn't affect srs ticks. Mastery boosts your signature shot, your buffed like crazy main dot that has near 100% uptime, and also your secondary dot. Why wouldn't it be better ? That's a layman's perspective but you get the point. Refer to Draco's post for logs/numbers.

    @DanielBrems, there is nothing wrong with wanting to min/max. I do so as well on all my alts. But I don't have double standards, like you seem to have. If I had an alt hunter, and I was progressing through normal modes with an alt run or another guild or w/e. I would want to min/max in any way I can. Not just come to the forums, ask which spec is the best spec on single target. Find out it's BM. Then go back and play SV. (Just an example) If it's a single target fight and you care that much about min/maxing DONT play sv. Play BM. And multi target favors mastery with SV. So crit>mastery>haste will get you through ALL the fights in this tier with both specs perfectly optimized. What more do you want?
    Read my posts and you'll find out. Currently I'm discussing if haste or mastery is better (general opinion seems to say that mastery is, trying to find out by how much and if it will change with scaling). Also, I haven't once stated/implied that I'm going SV for any more than the recommended SV fights.

    In regards to your argument about mastery "of course" being better, as it increases 65% of our total damage: It's simply not valid reasoning, really. It's only one out of two factors. The amount it increases elemental damage per point is incredibly low, to balance out the fact that a large part of our damage comes from exactly that; elemental damage. You have to look at the entire picture, instead of making assumptions based on first impressions.

  12. #32
    So we both agree that it's irrelevant atleast for this tier to discuss what's better for single target (since you should be BM for single target in the first place).

    The only discussion that's valid is what's better on multi target/aoe.

    Reasons why mastery is better on multi target:
    Majority of the time, atleast on two targets like SG, all you're doing is applying srs through multi shot. You're not spamming it. Multi shot to put up srs, then continue normal rotation. Haste has absolutely ZERO impact on that scenario. You don't need more focus regen to multi shot to keep srs up. You don't need faster cobra shots cuz you're not using cobras to maintain srs. That extra srs ticking on the second dog is ONLY going to benefit from mastery since haste does NOT increase ticks on srs. So, multi target = mastery > haste. Case closed.

    Reason why haste is better on multi target:
    None whatsoever.

    Reasons why mastery is better on aoe:
    Serpent spread, and improved serpent sting and explosive trap. Majority of the damage in any aoe situation will come from the actual serpent sting ticks and imp srs. Both of which are directly proportional to mastery, same with the trap. Now, if you want to argue that haste would increase focus regen and in turn give you more multi shots. Keep in mind that you are trading off the mastery which will lower your srs dmg, and it doesn't end up being worth it. The biggest reason against haste is actually our talents. For aoe, there is no debate on what's better. ToTH is the clear winner by miles. And if you do have ToTH, you really don't need the extra regen. It's like alysrazor and fire mages (one of many classes). Their stat priority was crit > haste > mastery in firelands. They reforged everything into mastery for that fight. Because of the crit and haste buff. Adding more haste along with taking ToTH on aoe would just be redundant and a waste. If you don't think so, you have no idea what stat synergy is and need to look it up. Now the alysrazor example is a hyperbole but it fits the situation. For aoe then, mastery > haste.

    Reasons why haste is better than mastery on aoe:
    More multi shots, traded off with less damage on srs. Not even close to being worth it.

    Another reason why mastery > haste = Majority of all top SV hunters prioritize mastery over haste. If some normal mode heroes believe haste is better it doesn't change the facts. So it is not US that need to sim and prove whether mastery is better. It is YOU who needs to prove to us that haste is better.

    So... be it multi target, or aoe, mastery is better. If after this post you again reply with a vague and pointless response of nothingness, just for the sake of prolonging the thread or arguing, then I will assume you are a troll, which would make sense.
    Last edited by Saoron; 2012-12-29 at 09:13 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Are you sure haste > mastery is such a significant DPS-loss on AoE though? You will be able to get out more multi-shots overall due to increased (pasive and CS) focus regen, and SrS will tick faster.

    edit: responding to tehstool

    edit 2: 2.5k mastery translates into (roughly) 4% increased magic damage. 2.5k is (roughly) the amount of mastery that is between going crit > mastery > haste and crit > haste > mastery with BiS gear. Taking into account that the AoE-phases on most bosses don't make up a very much of the encounter (Stone Guard being an exception; and by the way, don't bother SrSing the third add, as damage done to it is decreased), the difference between going mastery > haste and haste > mastery - I would think - is quite small (tilting in both directions), both on pure single target encounters and AoE ones.
    1 extra cobra shot (9 total) isn't going to beat the extra damage gained from say 8 cobra shots and more aoe damage. Haste also doesn't affect your SrS damage ticking away on the targets which is where mastery is even better.

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  14. #34
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    So we both agree that it's irrelevant atleast for this tier to discuss what's better for single target (since you should be BM for single target in the first place).

    The only discussion that's valid is what's better on multi target/aoe.

    Reasons why mastery is better on multi target:
    Majority of the time, atleast on two targets like SG, all you're doing is applying srs through multi shot. You're not spamming it. Multi shot to put up srs, then continue normal rotation. Haste has absolutely ZERO impact on that scenario. You don't need more focus regen to multi shot to keep srs up. You don't need faster cobra shots cuz you're not using cobras to maintain srs. That extra srs ticking on the second dog is ONLY going to benefit from mastery since haste does NOT increase ticks on srs. So, multi target = mastery > haste. Case closed.

    Reason why haste is better on multi target:
    None whatsoever.

    Reasons why mastery is better on aoe:
    Serpent spread, and improved serpent sting and explosive trap. Majority of the damage in any aoe situation will come from the actual serpent sting ticks and imp srs. Both of which are directly proportional to mastery, same with the trap. Now, if you want to argue that haste would increase focus regen and in turn give you more multi shots. Keep in mind that you are trading off the mastery which will lower your srs dmg, and it doesn't end up being worth it. The biggest reason against haste is actually our talents. For aoe, there is no debate on what's better. ToTH is the clear winner by miles. And if you do have ToTH, you really don't need the extra regen. It's like alysrazor and fire mages (one of many classes). Their stat priority was crit > haste > mastery in firelands. They reforged everything into mastery for that fight. Because of the crit and haste buff. Adding more haste along with taking ToTH on aoe would just be redundant and a waste. If you don't think so, you have no idea what stat synergy is and need to look it up. Now the alysrazor example is a hyperbole but it fits the situation. For aoe then, mastery > haste.

    Reasons why haste is better than mastery on aoe:
    More multi shots, traded off with less damage on srs. Not even close to being worth it.

    Another reason why mastery > haste = Majority of all top SV hunters prioritize mastery over haste. If some normal mode heroes believe haste is better it doesn't change the facts. So it is not US that need to sim and prove whether mastery is better. It is YOU who needs to prove to us that haste is better.

    So... be it multi target, or aoe, mastery is better. If after this post you again reply with a vague and pointless response of nothingness, just for the sake of prolonging the thread or arguing, then I will assume you are a troll, which would make sense.
    No one needs to prove anyone anything. As someone called out earlier in the thread, I'm new to Hunter; I was merely curious. There's no need to call me a troll or a normal mode hero.

  15. #35
    I am using haste only for the fact that I like faster cobra shots and due to the fact that mastery and haste are very close to each other on simcraft

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