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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire Kalium's Avatar
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    Child Support vs Safe Surrender

    This thought has been plaguing me for a while... why is it a mother can severe all ties with a baby at a safe surrender station and never be liable for Child Support... yet if the father tries to severe all ties with a baby he is still liable for Child Support? Seems like a double standard. Don't get me wrong I feel people should take responsibility for their actions. It just seems that a woman can walk away with no consequence but a man can't. What happened to gender equality?

    Just a random thought,
    Kalium

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Heh, we just had a giant thread about this a month ago. This one will undoubtedly explode in a moment.

    Essentially, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  3. #3
    Because men's rights are ignored. There are so many gender inequalities that negatively affect men but no one cares to listen.
    For some reason women's problems are so much more important......

    Men need to speak out more, and the stigma needs to be removed from men's rights activism.

  4. #4
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMechatronGamer View Post
    Because men's rights are ignored. There are so many gender inequalities that negatively affect men but no one cares to listen.
    For some reason women's problems are so much more important......

    Men need to speak out more, and the stigma needs to be removed from men's rights activism.
    Considering women have not come close to parity with men until the last century, it's actually quite easy to understand why women's rights is a somewhat more critical issue to many.
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    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Considering women have not come close to parity with men until the last century, it's actually quite easy to understand why women's rights is a somewhat more critical issue to many.
    Think of it similarly to whites claiming discrimination in South Africa (even if their claim is valid).
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

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    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Think of it similarly to whites claiming discrimination in South Africa (even if their claim is valid).
    Heh, the whole Black Economic Empowerment thing in South Africa really really pisses off the white South Africans I know, which I think is totally understandable.
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    Mechagnome Guilu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMechatronGamer View Post
    Because men's rights are ignored. There are so many gender inequalities that negatively affect men but no one cares to listen.
    For some reason women's problems are so much more important......

    Men need to speak out more, and the stigma needs to be removed from men's rights activism.
    Women have more parity problems than men do, and we take care of the bigger problem first.

  8. #8
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Heh, the whole Black Economic Empowerment thing in South Africa really really pisses off the white South Africans I know, which I think is totally understandable.
    Well think of it this way, a common response of "well you had it good for how many years" really isn't a valid retort to inequality. Not saying what is happening, just saying I see this response a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire Kalium's Avatar
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    When both parents want to be involved with the child courts currently rule, "In the best interest of the child"... so Baby > Mom and/or Dad.

    If this is to be accepted then it should carry over to Safe Surrender as well. Moms should have to pay Child Support if they want to walk away. If they want to lessen the financial burden then they can name the father and he can be DNA tested and pay as well. Both parties should have to pay an equal amount in the case of Safe Surrender.

    With the disparity in Child Support vs. Safe Surrender the rights seem to be more like... Mom > Child > Dad.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    When both parents want to be involved with the child courts currently rule, "In the best interest of the child"... so Baby > Mom and/or Dad.

    If this is to be accepted then it should carry over to Safe Surrender as well. Moms should have to pay Child Support if they want to walk away. If they want to lessen the financial burden then they can name the father and he can be DNA tested and pay as well. Both parties should have to pay an equal amount in the case of Safe Surrender.

    With the disparity in Child Support vs. Safe Surrender the rights seem to be more like... Mom > Child > Dad.
    The answer is that the two concepts serve different situations. Child support is there to alleviate some of the financial difficulties a PARENT would face raising a child by him or herself or disproportionately. Child support is not gender specific; a mother can be ordered to pay child support if the father has primary custody. It is believed that biological parents are better at raising children than the system and child support can help effectuate this belief. Yes, a father is more likely to be ordered to pay child support but he can eliminate this if he agrees to joint custody.

    Safe surrender, on the other hand, was enacted to combat infant death caused by abandonment and unsafe raising locations. If the father is judgement proof on child support or if the mother is too scared of the father, and the mother feels she cannot raise the child, she may be pressured to abandon the child so that she can survive. The purpose of safe surrender is not to eliminate financial difficulties for the mother but to do what is best for the child with the understanding that people who abandon children tend to do so because they cannot mentally, physically, or financially afford to raise the child. If you start charging women for using safe surrender, then women who would otherwise resort to safe surrender are likely to kill their children and hide it from the government.

    The question asked when dealing with children is what is best for the child. It is not what is best for the parents. The law is not made to treat women and men equally because women and men are not equal. Women are in the unique position of actually 100% having the child with her. A man can more easily abandon his duties. What happens when a man abandons his duties? He gets a judgment for child support and maybe goes to jail for contempt if he can afford to pay but refuses to. What happens to a woman when she abandons her duties? She goes to jail for child endangerment/murder.
    Last edited by jbhasban; 2012-12-28 at 04:47 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    This thought has been plaguing me for a while... why is it a mother can severe all ties with a baby at a safe surrender station and never be liable for Child Support... yet if the father tries to severe all ties with a baby he is still liable for Child Support? Seems like a double standard. Don't get me wrong I feel people should take responsibility for their actions. It just seems that a woman can walk away with no consequence but a man can't. What happened to gender equality?

    Just a random thought,
    Kalium
    Wouldn't the father be able to claim the baby and sue the mother for child support in this case?
    I thought giving up the child is only OK if both parties agree.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilu View Post
    Women have more parity problems than men do.
    No they don't...

    It's not 1960.

  13. #13
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMechatronGamer View Post
    No they don't...

    It's not 1960.
    Even 1 more parity problem is still more.

    It's just not a lot more.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMechatronGamer View Post
    No they don't...

    It's not 1960.
    ... Do you work in social services or work as a family attorney/magistrate? If not, you have no justifiable perspective to state this. The reality is that women are in a lot worse of a position then men in so far as child rearing and finances go.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jbhasban View Post
    ... Do you work in social services or work as a family attorney/magistrate? If not, you have no justifiable perspective to state this.
    Logical fallacy. ad hominem.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbhasban View Post
    The reality is that women are in a lot worse of a position then men in so far as child rearing and finances go.
    No they aren't. Men face an equally large number of problems both in regards to their children and their employment.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMechatronGamer View Post
    Logical fallacy. ad hominem.


    No they aren't. Men face an equally large number of problems both in regards to their children and their employment.
    I can only speak to my perspective as an attorney who sees his share of family issues.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jbhasban View Post
    I can only speak to my perspective as an attorney who sees his share of family issues.
    The entire justice system is built to protect the most vulnerable, which historically was women. So I'm not really surprised. There are not many laws that protect men today, or laws that deal with men's issues, so it's no surprise that you primarily deal with cases related to female problems.

    The legal system needs some reform to recognize pertinent issues related to men.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Even 1 more parity problem is still more.

    It's just not a lot more.
    I am so sick of hearing this. I can go item for item on these disparity lists and prove men are worse off than woman now. You act like there is such a gap. At least in the us men have it worse by far.

  19. #19
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trunksee View Post
    I am so sick of hearing this. I can go item for item on these disparity lists and prove men are worse off than woman now. You act like there is such a gap. At least in the us men have it worse by far.
    Then do it. Feel free to cite sources while you're at it.

    It's my opinion that women and men are generally equal in the eyes of modern society. However generally is not absolute. And it is my opinion (until proven otherwise) that women still have more issues than men, even if by a small number.

    However, this doesn't mean in the least that in an isolated area, men don't have more issues than women.
    Last edited by Rukentuts; 2012-12-28 at 05:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Then do it. Feel free to cite sources while you're at it.

    It's my opinion that women and men are generally equal in the eyes of modern society. However generally is not absolute. And it is my opinion (until proven otherwise) that women still have more issues than men, even if by a small number.

    However, this doesn't mean in the least that in an isolated area, men don't have more issues than women.
    It is my experience that men and women are fairly equal in the upper brackets of society. However, they are not equal in the area where it matters: people making under 30k a year. When a family grosses under 30k a year, it is generally the women who are the ones who are screwed. If the couple divorce, the woman has to raise the child and the man is likely to hide his money from the woman and make it virtually impossible for the courts to do anything about it.

    There are a lot more cases of women who are stuck with a baby and the man is gone, in jail, or whatever than there are men stuck with children. The law reflects this difference. Where the men are wealthy, they tend not to care that they have to pay child support because it really isn't that much money. It caps out at around 20k a year.
    Last edited by jbhasban; 2012-12-28 at 05:38 PM.

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