Did the Forsaken get a new "image" since Cataclysm?

[Guibilar]

I think the Forsaken have their own agenda and are now becoming more like the Scorge, provided that their queen is using the valkyries to create his own army of undead and practically dominating the Eastern Kingdom, it will be the new Lich Queen?

[Aquamonkey]

I think the Forsaken have their own agenda and are now becoming more like the Scorge, provided that their queen is using the valkyries to create his own army of undead and practically dominating the Eastern Kingdom, it will be the new Lich Queen?

The Forsaken may become as ruthless as the Scourge, but the key difference is that the Scourge were mindless slaves. The Forsaken have free will. Sylvannas is more along the lines of Garrosh, just with much fewer resources and less influence.

[Nindoriel]

Now you are just embarrassing yourself.

What? You didn't have any arguments. All you did was call me biased because I see the Worgen as the good guys and the Forsaken as the bad guys. I gave lots of arguments why I think that way.

The Kingdom of Lodaeron doesn't exist anymore. Their laws no longer apply.

Then the Forsaken don't have a right to that land either. Yet they insist that they have.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 01:06 AM ----------

The Forsaken may become as ruthless as the Scourge, but the key difference is that the Scourge were mindless slaves. The Forsaken have free will. Sylvannas is more along the lines of Garrosh, just with much fewer resources and less influence.

Yeah ask Koltira how that free will stuff works with Sylvanas.

[Aquamonkey]

Then the Forsaken don't have a right to that land either. Yet they insist that they have.

The Forsaken are the ruling government of the area. That gives them the right to the land.

[Amonra]

What? You didn't have any arguments. All you did was call me biased because I see the Worgen as the good guys and the Forsaken as the bad guys. I gave lots of arguments why I think that way.

So you only read "bias" and disregarded everything else on my post. Awesome.

[Aquamonkey]

Yeah ask Koltira how that free will stuff works with Sylvanas.

Is this a trick question? He would say that he loves working for the Forsaken of his own free will.

[Albert the fish]

Is this a trick question? He would say that he loves working for the Forsaken of his own free will.

Mostly because he's been undergoing torture, presumably at the personal ministrations of Syl herself, ever since partway(and early at that) into Cata.

[Amonra]

The best deal would've been to not be murdered in the first place. Being dragged out of the warcraft equivalent of heaven screaming and kicking, forced into your old broken and shattered hull and being threatened to either serve the Lich Queen or being destroyed for good and send to hell without any kind of chance to ever escape and nothing but an eternity of suffering in front of you is NOWHERE near a good deal.

Come on, you can't use "The best deal would've been to not be murdered in the first place" as an argument. This is a world in war; death IS going to happen, casualties are to be expected.

And we don't exactly know how the afterlife works on the warcraftverse. Did the souls of the risen even got to "heaven" before being ressurected? Tauren mention that proper rituals must be performed for the soul to me on; neither we know the fate of the forsaken put to true death, we only know that Sylvanas is cut from the afterlife, it hasn't been stated for the rest.

Above all, "deal" means an arrangement or compromise given certain circumstances, looking to obtain the best possible outcome. T

[Kangodo]

Yeah ask Koltira how that free will stuff works with Sylvanas.

Koltira isn't a member of the Forsaken?
Koltira made a truce with the Alliance, I am pretty sure that Garrosh would have done the same.

Aaah! I found the quote:

Garrosh Hellscream says: Some of your kind chose to join the Alliance.
Garrosh Hellscream says: They are now your enemies.
Garrosh Hellscream says: You may have had friends and kin who chose to cast their lot with the enemies of the Horde. They are no longer your friends... no longer your family.
Garrosh Hellscream says: The minute they put on that Alliance tabard, they died. I will NOT tolerate any lingering ties across enemy lines. Traitors to the Horde will die a traitor's death!
Garrosh Hellscream says: Do I make myself clear?
Ji Firepaw says: I... I believe so. Yes.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Good.

As we can see from this, it's clear that Garrosh would have killed Koltira for this treason.

I think the Forsaken have their own agenda and are now becoming more like the Scorge, provided that their queen is using the valkyries to create his own army of undead and practically dominating the Eastern Kingdom, it will be the new Lich Queen?

The Scourge had two goals:
-Prepare way for an invasion of the Burning Legion.
-Claim Azeroth for Arthas.

How is that in any way related to what Sylvanas is doing?

[Nindoriel]

The Forsaken are the ruling government of the area. That gives them the right to the land.

Of what area? The whole of Lordaeron? No, like I said before, not everything there belongs to them. Eastern Plaguelands doesn't belong to them. Western Plaguelands doesn't belong to them. And before they slaughtered the people in Hillsbrad, Hillsbrad didn't belong to them. Just because the king is dead and they go into the sewers of the capital city doesn't mean that the whole of Lordaeron suddenly belongs to them.

If the kingdom of Lordaeron doesn't exist anymore and their laws don't apply,then they can't say it is rightfully theirs, because it's their home. It is their land because they have a military presence there, and it remains so until somebody else drives them from that land.

Is this a trick question? He would say that he loves working for the Forsaken of his own free will.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1415202640

[Aquamonkey]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1415202640

Having free will in the military doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want. He committed treason and was punished for it.

[Nindoriel]

Koltira isn't a member of the Forsaken?
Koltira made a truce with the Alliance, I am pretty sure that Garrosh would have done the same.

He's a death knight, which makes him undead. Oh I accept that a punishment for his actions is reasonable. But what Sylvanas does is brainwashing him.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 01:43 AM ----------

Having free will in the military doesn't mean you get to do whatever the fuck you want. He committed treason and was punished for it.

Punishment, to me, doesn't mean brainwashing.

[Aquamonkey]

Punishment, to me, doesn't mean brainwashing.

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone.

That doesn't mean brainwashing. Maybe she just beat it out of him.

[Nindoriel]

The Scourge had two goals:
-Prepare way for an invasion of the Burning Legion.
-Claim Azeroth for Arthas.

How is that in any way related to what Sylvanas is doing?

She's raising people into undeath so that they serve her. What her goals are is secondary.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 01:46 AM ----------

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Fortunately, I have agents that can help you... erase this weakness. Beneath the Undercity you go.
Koltira Deathweaver yells: NO!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Shh... quiet, death knight. When I'm finished with you, your fear will be gone.

That doesn't mean brainwashing. Maybe she just beat it out of him.

Torture. Better.

[Kangodo]

She's raising people into undeath so that they serve her. What her goals are is secondary.

That doesn't really count. It's like WoW's own Godwin's Law

Lich King was creating an army.
King Varian is creating an army.
Therefore Humans = Scourge.

It's the same logic :P
The Scourge is the Scourge because they were either planning to destroy the world or conquering it all for the Lich King.

[Nindoriel]

That doesn't really count. It's like WoW's own Godwin's Law

Lich King was creating an army.
King Varian is creating an army.
Therefore Humans = Scourge.

It's the same logic :P
The Scourge is the Scourge because they were either planning to destroy the world or conquering it all for the Lich King.

Dude what kind of logic is that. Humans are creating an army by training their people. Like every other normal race. Like orcs, tauren, elves, dwarves, they procreate, raise their young and train them.

The Lich King, just like Sylvanas, killed people and brought them back as undead. It makes sense that Sylvanas does that, since undead can't procreate, but it's still the same thing the Lich King did.

Even if Sylvanas has different plans, it doesn't change that when she's killing people and raising them into undeath she's doing what the Lich King did.

[Kangodo]

Dude what kind of logic is that. Humans are creating an army by training their people. Like every other normal race. Like orcs, tauren, elves, dwarves, they procreate, raise their young and train them.

And the Forsaken are creating an army Forsaken-style, there is no evil in that.

The Lich King, just like Sylvanas, killed people and brought them back as undead. It makes sense that Sylvanas does that, since undead can't procreate, but it's still the same thing the Lich King did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
That's the logic

The Scourge was evil, by saying the Forsaken did X which the Scourge also did you are implying that the Forsaken are also evil.
It's really one of the worst arguments possible.

Or to make it more clear, this is the logic you are applying:
1. Scourge = raising dead
2. Sylvanas = raising dead
3. 1 and 2 results into: Sylvanas = Scourge

The third line is the line you shouldn't be using, because just because two groups share one attribute does not mean they are the same.

Even if Sylvanas has different plans, it doesn't change that when she's killing people and raising them into undead she's doing what the Lich King did.

But does that mean she is equal to the Lich King?
Does that mean she is pure evil, like the Lich King?

[Haven]

Rofl, seriously? That's your example?

What's wrong with it? Here, an Alliance invading force that seeked to not only avenge Bolvar, but also seize the opportunity granted by civil war in UC to conquer it for the Alliance. Or you didn't do this event?

No it's not the all about the fighting, not to mention how argument doesn't actually detract from the fact their statements about one's home is hypocritical.
The Forsaken and especially Sylvanas as a faction spend a lot of their time groaning about how Lordaeron is there's and how they live there, and that the Alliance are just being mean when they counter attack (Invade) their land. We know this.
But they show an utter lack of any empathy whatsoever when they invade another's land to claim it for their and whilst showing total disregard for the living of Lordaeron.

Did you forget that it wasn't their idea at all? Blame Garrosh for Gilneas.

As always, pure-hearted paladins of Good never think of the problem from the Forsaken POV. They think that the only right course of action for an undead nation is to bury themselves and quietly rot.

[Nindoriel]

And the Forsaken are creating an army Forsaken-style, there is no evil in that.

Honestly are you just ignoring everything? For the thousandth time, they create an army by killing people and forcing them into undeath. So there was no evil in the events of WC3 either? When the Scourge turned the humans of Lordaeron into undead through the plague? That act alone was not evil in any way?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
That's the logic

The Scourge was evil, by saying the Forsaken did X which the Scourge also did you are implying that the Forsaken are also evil.
It's really one of the worst arguments possible.

Or to make it more clear, this is the logic you are applying:
1. Scourge = raising dead
2. Sylvanas = raising dead
3. 1 and 2 results into: Sylvanas = Scourge

The third line is the line you shouldn't be using, because just because two groups share one attribute does not mean they are the same.


But does that mean she is equal to the Lich King?
Does that mean she is pure evil, like the Lich King?

I never said the Forsaken are 100% like the Scourge. And what does Godwin's law have to do with it. This is not about Nazis.

[Kangodo]

Honestly are you just ignoring everything? For the thousandth time, they create an army by killing people and forcing them into undeath. So there was no evil in the events of WC3 either? When the Scourge turned the humans of Lordaeron into undead through the plague? That act alone was not evil in any way?

No, they kill people because they are the enemy.
Those people are the enemy because they are at war to protect their existence, it's the same as the Alliance is doing to the Horde.
Then they resurrect them into undead with a free will.

The Scourge killed people because they wanted to destroy Azeroth and then turned them into mindless undead that were under control of the Lich King.

You'd have a point if Sylvanas suddenly started to kill Blood Elves to turn them into Forsaken.

I never said the Forsaken are 100% like the Scourge. And what does Godwin's law have to do with it. This is not about Nazis.

You said they are becoming the Scourge.
Godwin's Law has everything to do with it, just replace Nazi with Scourge.