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  1. #261
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Ah I remember that one. I stopped listening when they kept spoiling stuff for me. That's probably why I missed it.

    edit: So he said we shouldn't expect him in 5.0 and that what happens to him is still a mystery. That's not a confirmation. Even Metzen's "It's likely we'll bring him back" is more of a confirmation than this.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2013-01-02 at 10:24 PM.

  2. #262
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Great! Then we can both both agree that using Garrosh as a scapegoat doesn't work given her attitude to it. Not to mention how Sylvanas also wanted the invasion anyway so that she could get her hands on the Scythe of Elune.
    Erm, you're still blaming an effective subordinate for the masterplan of his boss. You don't blame all Alliance soldiers for the wickedness of that asshole commander who ordered the butchery of Taurajo, do you?
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Emberstone_Mine
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Slaves_to_No_One
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Liberation_Day
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Push_Them_Out

    So not only do we have slavery of civilians that are treated like dirt, but those who can't mine are used as living experiments.
    I stand corrected. However, Forsaken aren't the only ones who have ever employed slave labor. Let's not forget about all that orcs did to draenei, and then during the First and Second war. Then about places like Durnholde.
    Well apparently by the end of MoP the Orcs will for the second time be in a situation where the Alliance can kill them all - and they don't.
    There are many examples of individuals being racist to Orcs, just as all other races are. But as a race they are not inclined to wipe out all Orcs in manner similar to how the Undead treat the other races by any stretch of the imagination.
    You're making things up. Again, you imply that they are another villainous organisation like Twilight Cult that wants to take over the world. Time and again Forsaken state their cause: to found their own state, carve themselves a place in the world, and all who stand in the way just seal their fate. They've never been the most sentimental and compassionate ones, given their undead state and history of being (literally) forsaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  3. #263
    ya me too miss the old wow

  4. #264
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Erm, you're still blaming an effective subordinate for the masterplan of his boss. You don't blame all Alliance soldiers for the wickedness of that asshole commander who ordered the butchery of Taurajo, do you?
    No you don't blame subordinates in the case if they dismissed their superiors, particularly before and during the questionable events. But as we're aware such cases of guilt are hard to determine in a legitimate manner. If you look at the Purge of Stratholme we had soldiers openly saying they disagreed with Arthas as we're aware those people in the end didn't have any negative consequences because of Arthas.

    I'm not saying that Garrosh should be absolved of guilt. But I'm saying pointing the finger at him and calling Sylvanas innocent is just flat out wrong.
    At times she was determined to wipe out all life Gilneas and seemed to be pretty content with using Gilneas as the staging ground to try out the Forsaken's newly found strengths. Then at times she was just apathetic.
    If she was truly an innocent party she would have flat out refused or at least argued not to invade, but she didn't. Instead we see her being quite content to kill everybody which is not the attitude of somebody who's being prodded into action.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    You're making things up.
    Where?
    End of the Second War the Alliance could've killed all Orcs - they didn't.
    Now at the end of MoP we will have the Alliance invading Orgrimmar and as Metzen has said they are not there for blood or to destroy Orgrimmar and are instead just there for Garrosh.
    Whereas the Forsaken in every conflict so far have gone out of their way to kill everybody they come in contact with and chase them down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Again, you imply that they are another villainous organisation like Twilight Cult that wants to take over the world. Time and again Forsaken state their cause: to found their own state, carve themselves a place in the world, and all who stand in the way just seal their fate. They've never been the most sentimental and compassionate ones, given their undead state and history of being (literally) forsaken.
    I don't know if they currently wish to conquer Azeroth. But they're doing a damn good job of implying it by moving out and trying to conquer everywhere then we have our quote by a Deathguard "Look before you now, and see the product of the new Forsaken. We have made our mark here on Azeroth, and that mark will grow. Our dominion will soon blanket the world!"

  5. #265
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    No you don't blame subordinates in the case if they dismissed their superiors, particularly before and during the questionable events. But as we're aware such cases of guilt are hard to determine in a legitimate manner. If you look at the Purge of Stratholme we had soldiers openly saying they disagreed with Arthas as we're aware those people in the end didn't have any negative consequences because of Arthas.

    I'm not saying that Garrosh should be absolved of guilt. But I'm saying pointing the finger at him and calling Sylvanas innocent is just flat out wrong.
    At times she was determined to wipe out all life Gilneas and seemed to be pretty content with using Gilneas as the staging ground to try out the Forsaken's newly found strengths. Then at times she was just apathetic.
    If she was truly an innocent party she would have flat out refused or at least argued not to invade, but she didn't. Instead we see her being quite content to kill everybody which is not the attitude of somebody who's being prodded into action.
    You judge from a human standpoint again. It's different for an undead. Killing somebody is no big deal when you've been killed once yourself. Just rez him and there's a good chance you'll watch cockroach fights together.
    Where?
    End of the Second War the Alliance could've killed all Orcs - they didn't.
    Now at the end of MoP we will have the Alliance invading Orgrimmar and as Metzen has said they are not there for blood or to destroy Orgrimmar and are instead just there for Garrosh.
    Whereas the Forsaken in every conflict so far have gone out of their way to kill everybody they come in contact with and chase them down.
    By the way, Greymane insisted that all orcs should've been executed. And we don't know yet how the end of MoP plays out. Maybe just as friendly as the Battle for Undercity when Jaina iced everyone and ported allies out, lest Varian tried to gut the world's most interesting shaman.
    I don't know if they currently wish to conquer Azeroth. But they're doing a damn good job of implying it by moving out and trying to conquer everywhere then we have our quote by a Deathguard "Look before you now, and see the product of the new Forsaken. We have made our mark here on Azeroth, and that mark will grow. Our dominion will soon blanket the world!"
    Hey, if I start to selectively quote random soldiers... How 'bout this: http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Blood_Elf_Plans - it shows that draenei want to commit genocide on blood elves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    You judge from a human standpoint again. It's different for an undead. Killing somebody is no big deal when you've been killed once yourself. Just rez him and there's a good chance you'll watch cockroach fights together.
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this. I know the Forsaken are different and don't care about/have a twisted morality.
    But just because they have a different system doesn't suddenly excuse them of their actions regardless of their twisted motivations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    By the way, Greymane insisted that all orcs should've been executed. And we don't know yet how the end of MoP plays out. Maybe just as friendly as the Battle for Undercity when Jaina iced everyone and ported allies out, lest Varian tried to gut the world's most interesting shaman.
    We've been specifically told by Metzen that Varian is there exclusively for Garrosh and isn't there to wipe out the Orcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Hey, if I start to selectively quote random soldiers... How 'bout this: http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Blood_Elf_Plans - it shows that draenei want to commit genocide on blood elves.
    Bear in mind the mentality and social structure of the Forsaken. They are a very singularly opinionated race which is very much partly due to Sylvanas's cult of personality.
    Also I really don't know what point you're trying to make, I gave that quote as an example that the Forsaken themselves definitely seem to show signs of wanting to conquer Azeroth and are definitely acting like after they attacked everywhere within arms reach. Some Draenei hated Blood Elves because of their actions, but in the end guess what?
    As a race they decided it would be better to save them and work with them and in the end reignite the Sunwell. Compared to the Forsaken who are actually going around conquering places which very much goes hand in hand with my quote.

  7. #267
    I think it has been the same?

  8. #268
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this. I know the Forsaken are different and don't care about/have a twisted morality.
    But just because they have a different system doesn't suddenly excuse them of their actions regardless of their twisted motivations.
    Oh c'mon, for several posts you've been trying to prove that a good, effective soldier should have his own judgement, doubts, opinion, compassion to enemy and high moral standarts? The only thing a good soldier should do is execute orders, no more, no less. Which they do.
    We've been specifically told by Metzen that Varian is there exclusively for Garrosh and isn't there to wipe out the Orcs.
    We've been told we'll get dance studios. Anyway, where's that info from? I wonder what else is to come.
    Bear in mind the mentality and social structure of the Forsaken. They are a very singularly opinionated race which is very much partly due to Sylvanas's cult of personality.
    Also I really don't know what point you're trying to make, I gave that quote as an example that the Forsaken themselves definitely seem to show signs of wanting to conquer Azeroth and are definitely acting like after they attacked everywhere within arms reach. Some Draenei hated Blood Elves because of their actions, but in the end guess what?
    As a race they decided it would be better to save them and work with them and in the end reignite the Sunwell. Compared to the Forsaken who are actually going around conquering places which very much goes hand in hand with my quote.
    It's not outside Lordaeron, actually, so my point still stands. In the end, time will show. And I'm 99% sure they won't pull a "racial leader gone insane and now we raid their city" card on the same side yet again. Keep gameplay mechanics in mind, the story has to obey it. Whatever happens, Forsaken will be a part of the Horde and will be playable, hence, arguably good because of fighting common evils. And Sylvanas is likely to stay her way because of several factors, such as her being the most discussed (seriously, count these "Sylvanas must be evil!" threads and count threads about Wrynn or Velen), ambiguous and one of the most active characters and not dying despite countless opportunities. Without her it will become boring, honorable paladins vs. honorable orcs, who needs that? Look at how they regret wasting Illidan and how community craves him back - I doubt they will do such mistake again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  9. #269
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Oh c'mon, for several posts you've been trying to prove that a good, effective soldier should have his own judgement, doubts, opinion, compassion to enemy and high moral standarts? The only thing a good soldier should do is execute orders, no more, no less. Which they do.
    Then we disagree on what a soldier is. I think they should have some empathy and an opinion in a war they're fighting that isn't simply a copy and paste of a leader they blindly follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    We've been told we'll get dance studios. Anyway, where's that info from? I wonder what else is to come.
    http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/mi...zen-interview/

    I have asked the guys to have one of the main objectives, you know like when you're going through a dungeon and you have those little side quests? Well, one of the main side quests is Varian being very specific: "Protect the kids. We're not here to conquer these people; we're here to bring down a guy that needs bringin' down." So imagine artillery, imagine the soldiers -- it's gonna be horrific -- but Varian saying, "We're the good guys. We're not here to massacre or enact vengeance on these people. They've been put upon by a bad man."

    He specifically mentions that he was specific to the development team about what Varian is doing, this is is something that is going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    It's not outside Lordaeron, actually, so my point still stands. In the end, time will show. And I'm 99% sure they won't pull a "racial leader gone insane and now we raid their city" card on the same side yet again. Keep gameplay mechanics in mind, the story has to obey it. Whatever happens, Forsaken will be a part of the Horde and will be playable, hence, arguably good because of fighting common evils. And Sylvanas is likely to stay her way because of several factors, such as her being the most discussed (seriously, count these "Sylvanas must be evil!" threads and count threads about Wrynn or Velen), ambiguous and one of the most active characters and not dying despite countless opportunities. Without her it will become boring, honorable paladins vs. honorable orcs, who needs that? Look at how they regret wasting Illidan and how community craves him back - I doubt they will do such mistake again.
    Ofcourse we're not seeing them outside of Lordaeron, regardless of their ultimate aim it's still their first objective, not to mention the simply fact that they can only conquer Lordaeron atm as it's the only zone that's within their reach atm.
    I don't think we should raid UC to kill Sylvanas as it's been done twice already pretty much. But I think she's too far gone to have a redemption story of any kind. I just don't see any way in which she can truly grow as a character that doesn't include her death or her going further and further down this new dark path of hers.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by rainiothon View Post
    Not really. The Forsaken campaign in all the neighbouring zones display them conquering and crushing local resistance, spreading as far as Arathi Highlands. If you played Vanilla you carried out a vigilante campaign against the Hillsbrad town collecting the skulls of workers, soldiers and town officials. This is extended to the creation of a concentration camp in Cataclysm (admittedly run by a rogue Forsaken who went mad, but still). I think the emphasis on their evil is now a more imperialistic, depraved and cruel vein, rather than the generalized sinister vibes they had in Vanilla. I see what you mean by the concept of free will being more emphasized though.
    This sums it up pretty well. The Forsaken went from bitter nihilists to fascists vying for Triumph des Willens.

  11. #271
    Bear in mind the mentality and social structure of the Forsaken. They are a very singularly opinionated race which is very much partly due to Sylvanas's cult of personality.
    That's non sense. The Forsaken come in all shapes and sizes like every other race.
    There's one that's lonely and wants a pet murloc, there's one cowering in a hut after facing the Worgen, there's one who just wants to fish, there's one in the Argent Dawn, there's one who is proud of his legacy of cleaning guano, there's one who gladly gave her life for the dark lady and so many, many more unique Forsaken all around Azeroth. I could spend all day just bringing up how unique the Forsaken really are.

    That said, I agree that of all playable races they are the most evil.
    They're a twisted race both on the outside as on the inside, even when it comes to simple things like fishing or cooking the Forsaken's approach would not be called sane by most other races.
    But in these days of war, genocide, torture and slavery shown in several races you can't exactly pretend to be high and mighty and act disgusted at the crimes of the Forsaken.

    What started out as necessity has since then become greed and we all know it.
    Right now they're still just taking what they believe is theirs but I highly doubt the Forsaken will stop there.
    As for the war with the Worgen it was inevitable, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  12. #272
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elexo View Post
    That's non sense. The Forsaken come in all shapes and sizes like every other race.
    There's one that's lonely and wants a pet murloc, there's one cowering in a hut after facing the Worgen, there's one who just wants to fish, there's one in the Argent Dawn, there's one who is proud of his legacy of cleaning guano, there's one who gladly gave her life for the dark lady and so many, many more unique Forsaken all around Azeroth. I could spend all day just bringing up how unique the Forsaken really are.
    That's not quite what I meant. I'm talking about the social ideals and attitudes towards other races and general ideology not a Forsaken who wants a pet, this is all due to their worship of Sylvanas. Also your example of Bartholomew is invalid as he is not Forsaken and is Undead - yes there's a difference. One is a race one and is a faction of the race. Those that disagreed with the Forsaken (Sylvanas) have since left or been killed off as traitors.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Then we disagree on what a soldier is. I think they should have some empathy and an opinion in a war they're fighting that isn't simply a copy and paste of a leader they blindly follow.
    Such soldiers used to be executed as traitors or heretics back then.

    Stop romantizing war, its brutal and pitiless, not full of honor and heroism.
    Last edited by Verdugo; 2013-01-04 at 03:53 PM.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Such soldiers used to be executed as traitors or heretics back then.

    Stop romantizing war, its brutal and pitiless, not full of honor and heroism.
    It certainly isn't emotionless or remorseless.
    Also wars are absolutely full of honour and heroism in fantasy settings such as Warcraft, in fact it's usually a staple for fantasy worlds - the idea of heroic actions.

    As I've pointed out before your general misanthropic and gloomy statements have never been an attitude synonymous in Warcraft.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-01-04 at 04:13 PM.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    It certainly isn't emotionless or remorseless.
    Only as aftershock. During battle, you only feel basic survival instinct - Kill or be killed.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Only as aftershock. During battle, you only feel basic survival instinct - Kill or be killed.
    Go read any fantasy book Warcraft or otherwise. There is absolutely inner turmoil portrayed in characters when they fight, go read ToW where you have Baine feeling sorry for killing Alliance soldiers.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Go read any fantasy book Warcraft or otherwise. There is absolutely inner turmoil portrayed in characters when they fight, go read ToW where you have Baine feeling sorry for killing Alliance soldiers.
    As I said, romantized. One of many reasons I cant stand storytelling in Blizzard games/books/whatever.

    Try to read books from the authors of the lost generation, they described war perfectly.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this. I know the Forsaken are different and don't care about/have a twisted morality.
    But just because they have a different system doesn't suddenly excuse them of their actions regardless of their twisted motivations.

    .
    Yes it does. Morality is entirely subjective. The crusades the Christians tortured, murdered, maimed millions of people in the name of God because they believed they were doing the moral thing. The Mayans sacrificed thousands to their gods, and the society thought it was the moral thing to do. Americans thought they were doing the moral thing by moving Indians off of their native lands.

    Mortality is subjective.

  19. #279
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarris View Post
    Yes it does. Morality is entirely subjective. The crusades the Christians tortured, murdered, maimed millions of people in the name of God because they believed they were doing the moral thing. The Mayans sacrificed thousands to their gods, and the society thought it was the moral thing to do. Americans thought they were doing the moral thing by moving Indians off of their native lands.

    Mortality is subjective.
    ???
    I know morality is subjective that's what I said. What I also said is that just because somebody has different morality doesn't mean they are automatically forgiven especially when their morality directly conflicts with others and usually at their expense.

    You mentioned the Crusades, by our standards they were heinous acts of inhumane torture and killing to the point where they are still brought up as examples today as examples of awful acts. Just because their standards were different doesn't mean their actions were any less barbaric and certainly doesn't mean they are forgiveable or deserve sympathy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-04 at 04:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    As I said, romantized. One of many reasons I cant stand storytelling in Blizzard games/books/whatever.

    Try to read books from the authors of the lost generation, they described war perfectly.
    Why do you continue to post about a story you dislike that obviously was never created with your preferences in story telling?
    (I mean this as an honest question, rather than to badger you)
    Comparing irl feelings during a War to a fantasy one is almost night and day different.

  20. #280
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Then we disagree on what a soldier is. I think they should have some empathy and an opinion in a war they're fighting that isn't simply a copy and paste of a leader they blindly follow.
    Dunno about you, dude, but I've been to the army. The only one time someone's interested in your opinion is when they ask you whether it's navy or ground.
    He specifically mentions that he was specific to the development team about what Varian is doing, this is is something that is going to happen.
    Good. And thanks for the link.
    Ofcourse we're not seeing them outside of Lordaeron, regardless of their ultimate aim it's still their first objective, not to mention the simply fact that they can only conquer Lordaeron atm as it's the only zone that's within their reach atm.
    I don't think we should raid UC to kill Sylvanas as it's been done twice already pretty much. But I think she's too far gone to have a redemption story of any kind. I just don't see any way in which she can truly grow as a character that doesn't include her death or her going further and further down this new dark path of hers.
    One good thing about ambiguous acts is that you can keep doing them and still be interesting. Genetic experiments? Religious worship? Strong nationalism? My wet dream is to see Forsaken Commissars, Warhammer style.

    Also, try playing The Witcher 1&2. Perfect games in terms of plot, many questions and situations that simply have no right answer or solution, especially in the second game, very nonlinear. And then your uneasy decisions come back and bite you in the ass.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 05:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Comparing irl feelings during a War to a fantasy one is almost night and day different.
    They aren't supposed to be different, or else you'll get funny war, dramatic fishing, and unemotional love. Feelings have to be adequate, otherwise it's a crap of storytelling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

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