"Only Jack can zip up."
The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.
But regarding the Forsaken, one should remember that they have a completely different view on death. Slaying someone isn't a problem because they can be simply rezzed to see the humor of their situation. You may loathe undead, but let's look at how you sing when you become undead. This may seen a small thing at first, but I think it's one of the fundamental things in terms of morale.
As for the plague, I see no problem at all. Yes, it's effective. It's a weapon of mass destruction that does not damage non-organic substance, and it's awesome. In fact, so awesome that Orgrimmar is afraid of Forsaken. You may say anything, but this kind of weaponry is way better than what is used commonly - cannon fodder that mindlessly shouts "Lok'tar Ogar/For the Alliance!" or explosives that destroy absolutely everything. Personally, I don't care what brings death - be it a blade (which is somehow considered valorous), bullet (considered normal), explosion (considered a bit gruesome), or disease/poison (which is somehow considered dirty and immoral to deliver). Death is death, doesn't matter how it happened. Dumb knights think it's low to use a disease to kill one of them because "it takes no skill", go brew it yourself then.
Would you always wait to be abused just to be able to tell you weren't the first one to strike, and therefore innocent? This principle can also be played with easily, just set youself up to look like a victim. Sylvanas simply didn't bother with that.
"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.
Is the OP asking if the Forsaken aren't evil now? Because playing any further than that opening movie screen makes them look far more malevolent than they were in Vanilla...
My opinions: 5.0 was the golden age of content, the ability prune barely did anything, and 6.2 was actually an enjoyable timesink.
If your thread can contain the phrase "get rid of LFR" even with a rough summary, it's just another anti-LFR thread.
20m Mythic was, by far, the worst thing to come out of WoD.
I guess after being hunted by the scarlet crusade, mistrusted and hated simply for being dead, that has to have some serious psycological issues on you, its no surprise they don't trust anyone beyond themselves, I guess in their minds its an "its us or them" situation, I used to get an aura of desperation from some undead NPC's, the way they felt like joining sylvanas was there only option, now I'm not so sure.
Forsaken aren't, or have ever been, evil*.
They are amoral sociopaths building an empire. The forsaken rarely do anything cause of "evil", they rarely do something that will not lead to an advantage.
Evil is absolute, primal, it is the mean and the end on itself. The forsaken's actions are means to guarantee their existence.
Of course, these actions are callous, horrible, cruel and downright despicable most of the time; but their objective it's survival.
*Now, defining evil would takes us nowhere for the next century or so, That's why I'm using the sort-of arbitrary supposition that "intentionality" is what matters in this case. Can you be evil when you don't mean or care to be evil? Is it reveling on other's suffering and pain a condition of evil?
Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2012-12-29 at 04:39 AM.
The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune
If you play beyond the introduction, it's the opposite. They used to be a very laid back race that mostly did the bare minimum required to protect themselves. They just had a lot of enemies and some Forsaken were rather enthusiastic about eradicating them. Now they're much more aggressive, fortifying their positions and going on the offensive against any potential enemy. The apothecaries used to be mostly educated individuals who did what they could with minimal resources to help Forsaken forces. Now they're producing weapons of mass destruction on an industrial scale, with big fancy laboratories and warmachines in most settlements.
Diplomacy is just war by other means.
Play the quests in Silverpine. Then you may even feel simpathy for the bastards.
Even tough they are dead, they are still the citizens of Lordaeron. Something the Alliance will not accept. The Alliance, that they used to the part of. And the Alliance is trying to take Lordaeron back, killing every Forsaken in the way. By this perspective, it is hard to deny they are under pressure.
Sure, they have some very questionable methods, like using the Plague, something that even brutal Garrosh forbade. And there are indeed some Forsaken that are just evil. But every race has some individuals that are evil, it is not a Forsaken only trait.
Everyone has basically a different version of what is evil
---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 07:41 AM ----------
---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 07:49 AM ----------
People always point out the use of Plauge as an automatic "must be evil" thing
But honestly I see no difference from a plauge bomb, a high explosive bomb, or a beef jerkey bomb
We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"
They've gone beyond defending their own to the point of invading other people's land.
At this point the Forsaken are the biggest hypocrites in WoW.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil and tell me the Forsaken don't fit into.
What you described is pretty text book Lawful Evil.
---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 08:30 AM ----------
Then when the Forsaken openly kill the living residents of Lordaeron it's suddenly fine cause they're the enemy?
Sylvanas loves moaning about "this our land how dare the Alliance counter attack here!" mean while ignoring Soutshore and Gilneas.
Again Forsaken are built on hypocrisy. Aslong as they feel that they're the victims they feel they're being mistreated by the others. When somebody else is the victim it's fine.
Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-29 at 08:40 AM.
Good and evil are not just black and white, they are a sliding and ambiguous scale of grey. One persons definition of evil is another persons view of good. Do terrorists consider themselves to be evil, well no of course they don't, they think of themselves as being on a righteous cause and doing gods will.
I certainly don't think that the Forsaken consider themselves to be evil, rather they consider themselves to be victims of an appalling fate, doing what they must to survive.
I've always felt the Forsaken morality/reasons are a combination of their hypocritical belief that they're the victim no matter what they do regardless of the victim in question and thus they are not in the right and the simple fact that they just don't care. They break any code they can to reach their goal.
The fact is one's judgement of whether or not they are evil has never been down to the perpetrator and instead the majority of the population and of the victims.
"Good" and "Evil" are such idiotic concepts. Everyone does what he think is right. There's no black or white, but many shades of gray and they're all in the eyes of the beholder. In the Forsaken's case, what people expect them to do? "Ok, the lich king is dead, lets all jump off a cliff". They've been FORCED into their condition and are simply looking to make the best of it for themselves. Yes they are often amoral, but that has a lot to do with their condition, kinda hard to feel empathy towards people hell-bent on destroying you and all of your kind when you can't already feel much anything at all. They do what's best for them no matter what's the cost, wich is honestly what most races in Warcraft lore are doing.
Personally i'm fine with this. I loved the tragic aspect they had before and i still like what they're growing into, and honestly feels like its the only natural course they could had taken.
---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 11:43 AM ----------