Did the Forsaken get a new "image" since Cataclysm?

[Scummer]

The attack on Gilneas was on Forsaken account, sure. They thought it was too dangeous to have an Alliance stronghold so close to the Undercity. Also, it is part of the Forsaken campaign for conquest, that's for sure. I didn't say the Forsaken are not to blame for taking Alliance land, and worse, using the Plague to do that. They surely are not just holding their "rightfull" land, they are expanding over northern Eastern Kingdoms. The same way the Orcs are expanding in northern Kalimdor.

Gilneas wasn't an Alliance stronghold as they weren't even a part of it at the time. It was the Forsaken that forced them back into the Alliance. Sure it was Garrosh who ordered it, but Sylvanas and the Forsaken show an utter lack of empathy and hypocrisy when they claim they will kill everybody there for the sake of land.

It was attacked solely for the sake of land, not because it was threat.

[Amonra]

Again please read this http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil and tell me the Forsaken don't fit into.
What you described is pretty text book Lawful Evil.[COLOR="red"]

As I said, it depends on the measuring stick of evil. I personally, I find the DnD Character alignment system utterly reductive and simplistic in all accounts.

Gilneas wasn't an Alliance stronghold as they weren't even a part of it at the time. It was the Forsaken that forced them back into the Alliance. Sure it was Garrosh who ordered it, but Sylvanas and the Forsaken show an utter lack of empathy and hypocrisy when they claim they will kill everybody there for the sake of land.

It was attacked solely for the sake of land, not because it was threat.

But it was Garrosh who ordered the invasion of Gilneas; he wanted a port there. It was not "Let's be evil and kill all the Gilneans for the evulz" they are seeing through an order from their warchief. Sure, they don't feel awfully bad about it, cause they lack human empathy and all, but is not like they get off on it.

I don't see why you call forsaken hypocrites, they have always been interested on their own survival, the rest of the world be damned.

[Dreknar20]

lack of empathy and hypocrisy when they claim they will kill everybody there for the sake of land.
.

Think theres a word for that, its called "war"

Caring too much of the enemy side makes you a terrible soldier.

[Haven]

There have never been any quests that put you into direct charge with killing the Forsaken to reclaim land in Lordaeron for the Alliance at all. There have been plenty, in Cata, where the Forsaken attack Alliance land to reclaim it for themselves and "the Horde".

Especially that one time after the Wrathgate when Varian shouted about retaking Undercity for the Alliance and marched right in through the back entrance.

[Scummer]

Think theres a word for that, its called "war"

Caring too much of the enemy side makes you a terrible soldier.

No it's not the all about the fighting, not to mention how argument doesn't actually detract from the fact their statements about one's home is hypocritical.
The Forsaken and especially Sylvanas as a faction spend a lot of their time groaning about how Lordaeron is there's and how they live there, and that the Alliance are just being mean when they counter attack (Invade) their land. We know this.
But they show an utter lack of any empathy whatsoever when they invade another's land to claim it for their and whilst showing total disregard for the living of Lordaeron.

So they're Undead and perhaps empathy isn't one of their strongest feelings but it doesn't change how hypocritical their actions and words when it comes to their land and somebody else's. You can't just go around whining about Alliance in Lordaeron when the they're there in the first place place because they invaded somebody else's home.

This kinda sums it up http://cynwise.posterous.com/on-the-forsaken.

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 08:50 AM ----------

But it was Garrosh who ordered the invasion of Gilneas; he wanted a port there. It was not "Let's be evil and kill all the Gilneans for the evulz" they are seeing through an order from their warchief. Sure, they don't feel awfully bad about it, cause they lack human empathy and all, but is not like they get off on it.

Watch their actions and attitude during the siege. They really don't care that they're taking somebody else's home and enslaving it's occupants.

I don't see why you call forsaken hypocrites, they have always been interested on their own survival, the rest of the world be damned.

Read above. But in a nutshell their actions always contradict their words. They value their home, bur are happy to invade others while showing no remorse, which is key because they really don't care regardless of why they're there shows a level of hypocrisy. On top of this is how they value freedom but are all too willing to take it away from others.

[Verdugo]

Watch their actions and attitude during the siege. They really don't care that they're taking somebody else's home and enslaving it's occupants.

I dont remeber them enslaving anyone.

[Aquamonkey]

Read above. But in a nutshell their actions always contradict their words. They value their home, bur are happy to invade others while showing no remorse, which is key because they really don't care regardless of why they're there shows a level of hypocrisy. On top of this is how they value freedom but are all too willing to take it away from others.

The best way to ensure your freedom is to destroy anyone who could threaten it. They don't care about freedom. They care about THEIR freedom.

[Zeror]

I don't like the new Forsaken introduction story that is told currently when starting an undead. The previous one was way better.

[Scummer]

I dont remeber them enslaving anyone.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Emberstone_Mine
http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Slaves_to_No_One

Not to mention how they've always loved taking living prisoners to experiment on them. Then we have that woman who had been lobotomised walking around Undercity.

[dope_danny]

The forsaken have always been sinister, with the mindslaves and experimentation in the under city, the construction of plagues intended to destroy live on the smallest scale upwards and so on. Since the catalcysm they are definitely worse, more dynamic, but worse. The stuff they do in silverpine and hillsbrad is so bad it even disgusts garrosh of all people! Theres argument for them being damaged emotionally and driven mad by 'something' buried under lordaeron, but they are definitely a clear and present danger to the eastern kingdoms.
Personally i went through new silverpine on my blood elf and couldnt help but feel he might have a sense of deja vu and have problems with mercilessly killing refugees and raising them into undeath. How a tauren or orc would react to it is also interesting. Both ancestor revering races known for having as much a sense of personal honour as any knightly human or dwarf, how would they feel doing those missions. Could they feel any way besides "this is a line we shouldnt be crossing"?

Its an interesting idea, but personally i cant imagine the belves are feeling cosy watching sylvanas slowly take over everything north of the thandol span with the intent of murdering it, turning the area all plagued and corrupted and creating walking dead that praise "for sylvanas" mere moments after fighting for their lives.
How long till she thinks "hey im an elf, surely silvermoon should belong to me as well"?..

-Also its telling that forsaken players get very defensive on this subject. Do they not want it to be true? like it effects their own characters narrative in ways they do not like? or that theres nothing wrong with it and its 'just war'? i dont know myself. but its a very interesting dynamic from a facet of the playerbase that i think will be all the more interesting with the possible directions the forsaken go in the future.

[Eats Compost]

It's impossible to view the Forsaken as good or even reasonable when every action they take is antagonistic. That whole "experimentation on live prisoners thing"? When a lot of them are just farmers? That's stepping wayyyy into Scourge territory, there. It's not like resurrecting people into mindless undeath was the only bad thing the Scourge did, and the Forsaken act just like the Scourge in every aspect except for that - aside from their alliance of convenience with the Horde.

Sylvanas, in particular, has never been any better than the Scourge. The implication has always been that she would betray the Horde after the Lich King was dead, given the chance.

[Verdugo]

http://www.wowpedia.org/Emberstone_Mine
http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Slaves_to_No_One

What a bunch of idiots, Really? Using living humans as slaves? Whats the point.

[Durandro]

The Forsaken vary immensely. Some are tragical emotionally crippled introverts, some are cold heartless plotters, some are enraged berzerkers, and some are sadistic murderers. There's probably a good number of 'decent' Forsaken, but on the whole they aren't moral. Their loss of connection to the living world has made them numb, as mentioned by one questgiver in the old version of Brill the more time spent as undead the harsher the coldness bites. Whatever goodness and descency they had is being eroded away by their curse and their situation.

Sylvannas is pure evil at this stage. She's been on the slippery slope for a long time, but she's crossed the event horizon. Many of the Forsaken are losing their minds, and cling to the Dark Lady's commands as the last remnance of their conscienceness.

Its a horrific existance in every sense of the world. I'm curious where its leading to, but it can't be anything good.

[Verdugo]

Its a horrific existance in every sense of the world. I'm curious where its leading to, but it can't be anything good.

Its only horrific because thought of being with no emotions is alien to you. In truth, Forsaken are slowly achieving absolution from all mortal matters.

[Eats Compost]

Its only horrific because thought of being with no emotions is alien to you. In truth, Forsaken are slowly achieving absolution from all mortal matters.

In other words, they might as well just be bricks.

Don't read that far into it. Blizzard's narratives don't operate on a level that deep, and they never have.

[Verdugo]

Don't read that far into it. Blizzard's narratives don't operate on a level that deep, and they never have.

Its just wishfull thinking. The most evil thing that inhabitants of Azeroth saw was "ME SMASH". Reactions would be funny should something cold and calculating appear.

[Justignoreme]

Especially that one time after the Wrathgate when Varian shouted about retaking Undercity for the Alliance and marched right in through the back entrance.

Rofl, seriously? That's your example?

---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 11:13 AM ----------

Think theres a word for that, its called "war"

Caring too much of the enemy side makes you a terrible soldier.

Every time I hear you talk, Drek, I wonder where the hell you got your concepts of what a warrior is, cause clearly it isn't the real world lol.

[Aquamonkey]

There have never been any quests that put you into direct charge with killing the Forsaken to reclaim land in Lordaeron for the Alliance at all. There have been plenty, in Cata, where the Forsaken attack Alliance land to reclaim it for themselves and "the Horde".

Well, land in Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken as much as it does to the survivors. Even moreso since the Forsaken shed blood, sweat, tears, flesh, eyeballs, and some jaws for it while the survivors likely fled and abandoned that land.

[Justignoreme]

Well, land in Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken as much as it does to the survivors. Even moreso since the Forsaken shed blood, sweat, tears, flesh, eyeballs, and some jaws for it while the survivors likely fled and abandoned that land.

Southshore was never abandoned. Anything that was abandoned is in the hands of the Forsaken. And its completely irrelevant to the point made, there haven't been any quests for the Alliance to directly attack the Forsaken and take their land. Or any other Horde race for that matter. Everything has been defensive and reactive against the Horde, until MoP. Even MoP doesn't count much either, Alliance and Horde have 0 claim to anything in Pandaria it's not their land to win or lose. I hope Durotar is occupied by the Alliance in the following expansion but that's definitely too much to hope for, with the Siege of Orgrimmar not really being an Alliance victory.

[Aquamonkey]

Southshore was never abandoned. Anything that was abandoned is in the hands of the Forsaken. And its completely irrelevant to the point made, there haven't been any quests for the Alliance to directly attack the Forsaken and take their land. Or any other Horde race for that matter. Everything has been defensive and reactive against the Horde, until MoP. Even MoP doesn't count much either, Alliance and Horde have 0 claim to anything in Pandaria it's not their land to win or lose. I hope Durotar is occupied by the Alliance in the following expansion but that's definitely too much to hope for, with the Siege of Orgrimmar not really being an Alliance victory.

Just because there haven't been any quests for it doesn't mean the Alliance never attacks preemptively or without cause. That's how the Blood Elves, Trolls, and Goblins joined the Horde in the first place. The Alliance took hostile action against them and they sought the Horde for survival.