Also you have to bear in mind who the leader was. Crowley has shown himself to be very caring person for his people and very understanding and as we're fully aware is to the point where he will rebel for the sake of his people. This isn't a guy who wanted them to join the cause because he wanted them to bolster his numbers, he is the kind of guy who would be doing it to assure the refugees that they they would not become corrupted by the Forsaken.
You don't have call either faction good or evil to realise that the Forsaken were obviously the "bad guys" in this situation (As they are in situations now ).
---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 07:29 PM ----------
Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-30 at 07:52 PM.
Sure; you are correct. The talent trees were only available due to gameplay reasons (because it would make sense for the Forsaken to have the Priest class, since they invented the Shadow to begin with). That doesn't take away the fact that the Forsaken cannot use the light because they are... Well; the Forsaken. They feel abandoned by the Light; this is what makes them Forsaken in the first place. And undead person who does not feel abandoned by the Light cannot be Forsaken. The effect of this choice (for gameplay purposes) allows some undead to no longer be Forsaken.
Another example of this is the Ebon Blade. While other Death Knights have lost their connection with the Light, the Ebon Blade death knights regained it during the attack on Light's Hope Chapel. They are guarded by the light; even while activating their buried, maybe latent, powers of actual Undeath by using the talent 'Lichborn,' the Light still prevents them from being controlled as other Undead would be. A 'control Undead' spell doesn't work on an Ebon Blade Death Knight who has activated their Lichborn ability, even though they count, fully and wholly, as Undead at that point.
It's still a tricky thing, because healing spells that use the Light can still restore the wounds of the Forsaken, which shouldn't be possible... Unless they are not fully Forsaken. Unless their doubt is not fully there. Unless there is 'humanity' left in them. Of course; the actual reason for this is, again, gameplay-related. It would be really troublesome for the Forsaken to receive adverse effects from Light-based healing spells. Still; the fact that they don't (because of gameplay-related reasons) has an impact on what is happening in the game and in it's world. And the fact is: It's pretty easy to come up with lore-based reasons that explain a gameplay feature such as this.
They use to be a tragic and pitiable people.
They gained genuine status and are going a little nuts with their potential. It happy fairly often, America did it.
Maybe evil, maybe not, but thats the core of their story right now.
Either they'll go full evil and try to take over the world or they'll lean back and try to establish a homeostasis with the other races.
Last edited by TheWindWalker; 2012-12-30 at 08:58 PM.
Gone until the next expansion.
Last edited by Albert the fish; 2012-12-30 at 09:08 PM. Reason: I hate typing on an iPad. You all know what I meant, clerical errors aside.
Gone until the next expansion.
Sorry, but the forsaken are an army of cowards and hypocrites. They claim defense and wanting to be left alone, whilst invading in every direction, torturing, experimenting, and raising people into undeath the same way the scourge did to them. Claim all you want that it's just extremists or rogue factions like traitors from within the RAS, there's a reason for that. Evil is as evil does, and the forsaken are a breeding grounds for all sorts of nasty shit. It'll happen again, in fact it already sorta did in Hillsbrad.
The forsaken are on a crash course with destruction atm. The Horde might take a turn for the better after Garrosh bites the bullet, but they've always been rotten to the core. They aren't going to be able to take Gilneas, and if they continue pressing into the plaguelands, they'll be answering to the Ashbringer and the Crusade, possibly even the Ebon Blade. And that'll be lights out forsaken.
So again, pick your poison, beast or zombie. At the end is about what scenario is less horrifying, it is a grimm situation and I can't see it as a clear cut good/evil stitch.
It's just so unnecessary to bring up the concept of good versus evil when it's about power and might, of conquest and domination; it's like bringing a sword to a gun fight. This is war, and the forsaken are the race that you don't go asking for empathy.
As a personal note, I greatly dislike the mentioning of Calia Menethil as an argument. If she is alive, I have nothing against the girl. I hope she is doing her thing and living a fulfilling life. But she's the last remnant of a fallen monarchy, and with all the death and destruction that her blood has brought; her use as an icon or figure would bring more pain than any good, moreso this late. Had she rallied loyalist to the crown after the fall of Lordaeron, she would have been seen as a hero trying to reclaim her throne and redeem her brother's sins. That would have been cool. But after all these years and she keeping quiet, why would any of the battered once and again Lordaeron citzens care for her? where was she when Hillsbrad was left adrift and fighting for survival? where was her when they where finally overrun by the forsaken, and assimilated?
Calia, at this point, should keep quiet. No one could blame her for retiring and trying to distance herself. But she lost any right to reclaim her throne when she left behind her subjects that didn't die.
---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 10:47 PM ----------
They believe so much in this idea of order, that they quell rebellion in their own ranks, as they did with Stillwater in Hillsbrad. Evil exists in all races, and as in all of them, it is an undesirable trait to be eradicated, they have done so whenever it has presented in their race. The forsaken might not be altruistic, but they are not evil either.
Now, I do want to see the clash between the forsaken "environmental politics" and the Argent crusade in the WP. But if we take a page from our world, inescrupulous companies get away with a lot of shit that is harmful to the environment. Maybe if the forsaken and Argent crusade established fixed boundaries, they could actually coexist in peace.
Yes I see the Forsaken as evil and the Worgen/Gilneans as good. It seems quite obvious to me. The Gilneans were no threat to the Forsaken, yet they stormed the Greymane Wall and brought war to them. For what? So they could conquer their land. That alone doesn't mean they're evil. That only makes them the aggressors and put the Worgen into the defensive position. What makes them evil is killing innocents and raising them into undeath, like the Scourge, while the Worgen only defend themselves and their allies and do not force their curse upon anyone.
Anyone who doesn't see the wickedness of the Forsaken, in my opinion, isn't mature enough to discuss something like this. To call someone biased because they see how evil the Forsaken are, is just childish.
If you dismiss my arguments for the toon in my sig, that is childish of your part. If you have such a clear cut view of good and evil, specially in a world like warcraft, that is naive of your part. The fact that you call me immature because I, unlike you, refuse to box a side on a reductive label and instead try to look at the facts with objectivity and context, is laughable. And then you wrap up your diatribe saying that if one does not agree with your opinion, is immature and childish.
That is just worthy of pity; and not worth of my time, If I'm to be honest.