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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    So you'd be happy to be murdered, then raised by the same people, given the choice to either serve them or be killed again and if you're killed you'll go to a place worse then hell to be tormented by creatures of indefinite cruelty for all eternity and even if you choose to serve you'll eventually be destroyed or decay to the point of going feral.

    Yeah, sounds great. Sign me up!
    All the bigger motivation not to die and find a way to lichdom.

  2. #162
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Yes, but Garrosh thinks it's okay to infect Orcs with Sha..
    So I don't think his opinion is one that we should follow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Garrosh is a freaking hypocrite. He is willing to sacrifice his own kin in order to win, yet when a chance to recycle fallen appears, its suddenly a big nono.
    When Garrosh said that to Sylvanas, that was at the beginning of Cataclysm. He has changed since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    And the alternative is death. Join us or die. That's something that not other conquering race offers, in fact, it can be considered a small upside on being killed by the Forsaken.

    For the people in Fenris was either become Forsaken or become Worgen; you can chalk it all you want it like the worgen didn't act against their will, but at the end it was either Forsaken or Worgen, pick a side. It is biased to say that worgen were the "good guys" in this situation, they didn't go out of their way to save this humans; no, because they needed to bolster their forces as well. It was about choice; the forsaken at the end offer it between servitude or true death, Worgen between the curse or fodder for the forsaken.
    If anything your opinion is biased. Just have to look at your avatar,

  3. #163
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    And the alternative is death. Join us or die. That's something that not other conquering race offers, in fact, it can be considered a small upside on being killed by the Forsaken.

    For the people in Fenris was either become Forsaken or become Worgen; you can chalk it all you want it like the worgen didn't act against their will, but at the end it was either Forsaken or Worgen, pick a side. It is biased to say that worgen were the "good guys" in this situation, they didn't go out of their way to save this humans; no, because they needed to bolster their forces as well. It was about choice; the forsaken at the end offer it between servitude or true death, Worgen between the curse or fodder for the forsaken.
    How could the Worgen be seen as anything but the good guys to them when they're on the same side - the Alliance?
    Also you have to bear in mind who the leader was. Crowley has shown himself to be very caring person for his people and very understanding and as we're fully aware is to the point where he will rebel for the sake of his people. This isn't a guy who wanted them to join the cause because he wanted them to bolster his numbers, he is the kind of guy who would be doing it to assure the refugees that they they would not become corrupted by the Forsaken.
    You don't have call either faction good or evil to realise that the Forsaken were obviously the "bad guys" in this situation (As they are in situations now ).

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 07:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    So you'd be happy to be murdered, then raised by the same people, given the choice to either serve them or be killed again and if you're killed you'll go to a place worse then hell to be tormented by creatures of indefinite cruelty for all eternity and even if you choose to serve you'll eventually be destroyed or decay to the point of going feral.

    Yeah, sounds great. Sign me up!
    Meh the people who make that argument I don't think are discussing the right fantasy universe. Warcraft has never been about people making such choices unless they are villains.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-30 at 07:52 PM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    It was stated that holy and discipline trees are avalaible to them purely because of gameplay reasons.
    Very late reply to this one, but here goes:
    Sure; you are correct. The talent trees were only available due to gameplay reasons (because it would make sense for the Forsaken to have the Priest class, since they invented the Shadow to begin with). That doesn't take away the fact that the Forsaken cannot use the light because they are... Well; the Forsaken. They feel abandoned by the Light; this is what makes them Forsaken in the first place. And undead person who does not feel abandoned by the Light cannot be Forsaken. The effect of this choice (for gameplay purposes) allows some undead to no longer be Forsaken.
    Another example of this is the Ebon Blade. While other Death Knights have lost their connection with the Light, the Ebon Blade death knights regained it during the attack on Light's Hope Chapel. They are guarded by the light; even while activating their buried, maybe latent, powers of actual Undeath by using the talent 'Lichborn,' the Light still prevents them from being controlled as other Undead would be. A 'control Undead' spell doesn't work on an Ebon Blade Death Knight who has activated their Lichborn ability, even though they count, fully and wholly, as Undead at that point.

    It's still a tricky thing, because healing spells that use the Light can still restore the wounds of the Forsaken, which shouldn't be possible... Unless they are not fully Forsaken. Unless their doubt is not fully there. Unless there is 'humanity' left in them. Of course; the actual reason for this is, again, gameplay-related. It would be really troublesome for the Forsaken to receive adverse effects from Light-based healing spells. Still; the fact that they don't (because of gameplay-related reasons) has an impact on what is happening in the game and in it's world. And the fact is: It's pretty easy to come up with lore-based reasons that explain a gameplay feature such as this.

  5. #165
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    It was stated that holy and discipline trees are avalaible to them purely because of gameplay reasons.
    Actually they stated that they can use the Holy Light, it just hurts them immensely.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    If anything, the Forsaken would literally rape Calia into pieces for what her brother did to their nation.
    Except that Calia was a beloved princess and these are technically her subjects. So, unless the Forsaken are completely brainwashed, then they would still have memory of Calia. She is the rightful heir.

    Assuming, of course, that she was also turned.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Actually they stated that they can use the Holy Light, it just hurts them immensely.
    Hence no reason to use it unless you are masochist or still fanaticaly devout to light.

  8. #168
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Hence no reason to use it unless you are masochist or still fanaticaly devout to light.
    You said those trees were only there because of gameplay reasons, which isn't true.

  9. #169
    They use to be a tragic and pitiable people.
    They gained genuine status and are going a little nuts with their potential. It happy fairly often, America did it.
    Maybe evil, maybe not, but thats the core of their story right now.

    Either they'll go full evil and try to take over the world or they'll lean back and try to establish a homeostasis with the other races.
    “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredRose View Post
    They're greedy soulless monsters for not handing me everything for my 15 moneys a month!

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    Either they'll go full evil and try to take over the world or they'll lean back and try to establish a homeostasis with the other races.
    Honestly, I wouldn't call "conquering the world" evil in and of itself. Now, if they pull a Lich King and do what Garrosh accused her of before he went Full-Bazonkers™, which was to systematically kill their enemies with the intent or raising a larger and larger undead army fanatically devoted to an undead leader, then yeah, that's enough for me to call them evil.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Still it more less puts the Worgen into a similar situation, they are the Alliance pendant to the forsaken, the beasts that can barely control themselves, who are mistrusted by most.
    This is somewhat hilarious considering you were talking about one group murdering you, bringing you back as a rotting corpse then saying "join us or find yourself alone in a world who hates you" and the other said "they're going to murder you, so you can either die to them and be resurrected or willingly become a werewolf so that when you inevitably die, you'll stay dead."
    Last edited by TheWindWalker; 2012-12-30 at 08:58 PM.
    Currently trying to experiences all classes at 100. Count so far: 3.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't call "conquering the world" evil in and of itself. Now, if they pull a Lich King and do what Garrosh accused her of before he went Full-Bazonkers™, which was to systematically kill their enemies with the intent or raising a larger and larger undead army fanatically devoted to an undead leader, then yeah, that's enough for me to call them evil.
    No offense, and yes technically i AM assuming,nut how else would an undead faction take over? Surely you don't think they'd let living intelligent races exist. Even if th wants slaves, undead slaves are more useful. They don't need breeding stock since they'd have all trolls, humans, elves, orcs, Tauren, goblins, gnomes,dwarves, fur blog, etc, etc as forsaken and forsaken don't age or die really. There's no use for them to have living people if they took over the whole of Azeroth.
    Last edited by Albert the fish; 2012-12-30 at 09:08 PM. Reason: I hate typing on an iPad. You all know what I meant, clerical errors aside.
    “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredRose View Post
    They're greedy soulless monsters for not handing me everything for my 15 moneys a month!

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    No offense, and yes technically i AM assuming,nut how else would an undead faction take over? Surely you don't think they'd let living intelligent races exist. Even if th wants slaves, undead slaves are more useful. They don't need breeding stock since they'd have all trolls, humans, elves, orcs, Tauren, goblins, gnomes,dwarves, fur blog, etc, etc as forsaken and forsaken don't age or die really. There's no use for them to have living people if they took over the whole of Azeroth.
    One does not need to enslave their subjects. Rome, just to go for the most famous example, let most of their territory have its own laws and customs but nobody got away with not paying taxes and offering whatever tribute was demanded. Now, the Forsaken themselves would likely murder every last sentient being on the planet, or at least I think so, but that's not required.
    Currently trying to experiences all classes at 100. Count so far: 3.

  13. #173
    Sorry, but the forsaken are an army of cowards and hypocrites. They claim defense and wanting to be left alone, whilst invading in every direction, torturing, experimenting, and raising people into undeath the same way the scourge did to them. Claim all you want that it's just extremists or rogue factions like traitors from within the RAS, there's a reason for that. Evil is as evil does, and the forsaken are a breeding grounds for all sorts of nasty shit. It'll happen again, in fact it already sorta did in Hillsbrad.

    The forsaken are on a crash course with destruction atm. The Horde might take a turn for the better after Garrosh bites the bullet, but they've always been rotten to the core. They aren't going to be able to take Gilneas, and if they continue pressing into the plaguelands, they'll be answering to the Ashbringer and the Crusade, possibly even the Ebon Blade. And that'll be lights out forsaken.

  14. #174
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talthun View Post
    Sorry, but the forsaken are an army of cowards and hypocrites. They claim defense and wanting to be left alone, whilst invading in every direction, torturing, experimenting, and raising people into undeath the same way the scourge did to them. Claim all you want that it's just extremists or rogue factions like traitors from within the RAS, there's a reason for that. Evil is as evil does, and the forsaken are a breeding grounds for all sorts of nasty shit. It'll happen again, in fact it already sorta did in Hillsbrad.
    And your point is? That is how forsaken act, their motto is deception after all.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  15. #175
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    If anything your opinion is biased. Just have to look at your avatar,
    I call your bias because you choose to qualify a side as good and the other as evil, using a relative moral scale for such assumptions instead of fact. Do not go calling bias when you don't know what it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    How could the Worgen be seen as anything but the good guys to them when they're on the same side - the Alliance?
    Also you have to bear in mind who the leader was. Crowley has shown himself to be very caring person for his people and very understanding and as we're fully aware is to the point where he will rebel for the sake of his people. This isn't a guy who wanted them to join the cause because he wanted them to bolster his numbers, he is the kind of guy who would be doing it to assure the refugees that they they would not become corrupted by the Forsaken.
    You don't have call either faction good or evil to realise that the Forsaken were obviously the "bad guys" in this situation (As they are in situations now ).
    You could call the worgen the good guys, but only from the Hillsbrad humans PoV, yes. But it is much more akin to "between a sword and a hard place" than a happy rescue. They are giving away their humanity, one way or the other. People have to remeber that becoming a Worgen isn't all daffodils and candy canes, you are basically cursing yourself to become a creature half beast that can never be fully human again.

    So again, pick your poison, beast or zombie. At the end is about what scenario is less horrifying, it is a grimm situation and I can't see it as a clear cut good/evil stitch.

    It's just so unnecessary to bring up the concept of good versus evil when it's about power and might, of conquest and domination; it's like bringing a sword to a gun fight. This is war, and the forsaken are the race that you don't go asking for empathy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    Except that Calia was a beloved princess and these are technically her subjects. So, unless the Forsaken are completely brainwashed, then they would still have memory of Calia. She is the rightful heir.

    Assuming, of course, that she was also turned.
    The last "rightful heir" of Lordaeron killed them all, why would you possibly think they would hold any love for his sister, a girl that has done nothing of note for anyone in years? At best, they'd see her with resentment if she is still alive, hardly anyone would "love" her. She'd be the remainder of what they lost and what her brother did to them. The Forsaken only hold love and respect for Terenas because he died too.

    As a personal note, I greatly dislike the mentioning of Calia Menethil as an argument. If she is alive, I have nothing against the girl. I hope she is doing her thing and living a fulfilling life. But she's the last remnant of a fallen monarchy, and with all the death and destruction that her blood has brought; her use as an icon or figure would bring more pain than any good, moreso this late. Had she rallied loyalist to the crown after the fall of Lordaeron, she would have been seen as a hero trying to reclaim her throne and redeem her brother's sins. That would have been cool. But after all these years and she keeping quiet, why would any of the battered once and again Lordaeron citzens care for her? where was she when Hillsbrad was left adrift and fighting for survival? where was her when they where finally overrun by the forsaken, and assimilated?

    Calia, at this point, should keep quiet. No one could blame her for retiring and trying to distance herself. But she lost any right to reclaim her throne when she left behind her subjects that didn't die.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 10:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talthun View Post
    Sorry, but the forsaken are an army of cowards and hypocrites. They claim defense and wanting to be left alone, whilst invading in every direction, torturing, experimenting, and raising people into undeath the same way the scourge did to them. Claim all you want that it's just extremists or rogue factions like traitors from within the RAS, there's a reason for that. Evil is as evil does, and the forsaken are a breeding grounds for all sorts of nasty shit. It'll happen again, in fact it already sorta did in Hillsbrad.

    The forsaken are on a crash course with destruction atm. The Horde might take a turn for the better after Garrosh bites the bullet, but they've always been rotten to the core. They aren't going to be able to take Gilneas, and if they continue pressing into the plaguelands, they'll be answering to the Ashbringer and the Crusade, possibly even the Ebon Blade. And that'll be lights out forsaken.
    Cowards, hypocrites? "We will slaughter anyone who stands on our way" that has been their motto since their inception, they cannot be more forthcoming. They plan is to consolidate an empire, impregnable and free of danger. So of course anyone that resists that gets on their way.

    They believe so much in this idea of order, that they quell rebellion in their own ranks, as they did with Stillwater in Hillsbrad. Evil exists in all races, and as in all of them, it is an undesirable trait to be eradicated, they have done so whenever it has presented in their race. The forsaken might not be altruistic, but they are not evil either.

    Now, I do want to see the clash between the forsaken "environmental politics" and the Argent crusade in the WP. But if we take a page from our world, inescrupulous companies get away with a lot of shit that is harmful to the environment. Maybe if the forsaken and Argent crusade established fixed boundaries, they could actually coexist in peace.

  16. #176
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    I call your bias because you choose to qualify a side as good and the other as evil, using a relative moral scale for such assumptions instead of fact. Do not go calling bias when you don't know what it means.
    I called you biased because you obviously seem to feel very strong about the Forsaken/undead. You have Sylvanas in your signature and what seems to be some kind of undead/forsaken elf dark ranger thing.

    Yes I see the Forsaken as evil and the Worgen/Gilneans as good. It seems quite obvious to me. The Gilneans were no threat to the Forsaken, yet they stormed the Greymane Wall and brought war to them. For what? So they could conquer their land. That alone doesn't mean they're evil. That only makes them the aggressors and put the Worgen into the defensive position. What makes them evil is killing innocents and raising them into undeath, like the Scourge, while the Worgen only defend themselves and their allies and do not force their curse upon anyone.

    Anyone who doesn't see the wickedness of the Forsaken, in my opinion, isn't mature enough to discuss something like this. To call someone biased because they see how evil the Forsaken are, is just childish.

  17. #177
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I called you biased because you obviously seem to feel very strong about the Forsaken/undead. You have Sylvanas in your signature and what seems to be some kind of undead/forsaken elf dark ranger thing.

    Yes I see the Forsaken as evil and the Worgen/Gilneans as good. It seems quite obvious to me. The Gilneans were no threat to the Forsaken, yet they stormed the Greymane Wall and brought war to them. For what? So they could conquer their land. That alone doesn't mean they're evil. That only makes them the aggressors and put the Worgen into the defensive position. What makes them evil is killing innocents and raising them into undeath, like the Scourge, while the Worgen only defend themselves and their allies and do not force their curse upon anyone.

    Anyone who doesn't see the wickedness of the Forsaken, in my opinion, isn't mature enough to discuss something like this. To call someone biased because they see how evil the Forsaken are, is just childish.
    I also like Maiev, she is in my sig as well. I also ropleplay a Draenei paladin, my favorite race are high elves, Vereesa is my boo and I really like Jaina and I'm okay with what she did in Dalaran. Those are things that you don't know, because I only discuss what is pertinent to the theme at hand and I don't go around waving my "factions colors" like a rabid football fan.

    If you dismiss my arguments for the toon in my sig, that is childish of your part. If you have such a clear cut view of good and evil, specially in a world like warcraft, that is naive of your part. The fact that you call me immature because I, unlike you, refuse to box a side on a reductive label and instead try to look at the facts with objectivity and context, is laughable. And then you wrap up your diatribe saying that if one does not agree with your opinion, is immature and childish.

    That is just worthy of pity; and not worth of my time, If I'm to be honest.

  18. #178
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    I also like Maiev, she is in my sig as well. I also ropleplay a Draenei paladin, my favorite race are high elves, Vereesa is my boo and I really like Jaina and I'm okay with what she did in Dalaran. Those are things that you don't know, because I only discuss what is pertinent to the theme at hand and I don't go around waving my "factions colors" like a rabid football fan.

    If you dismiss my arguments for the toon in my sig, that is childish of your part. If you have such a clear cut view of good and evil, specially in a world like warcraft, that is naive of your part. The fact that you call me immature because I, unlike you, refuse to box a side on a reductive label and instead try to look at the facts with objectivity and context, is laughable. And then you wrap up your diatribe saying that if one does not agree with your opinion, is immature and childish.

    That is just worthy of pity; and not worth of my time, If I'm to be honest.
    What arguments?

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Why? The Forsaken don't hold all of Lordaeron. Why wouldn't human laws apply to land that is held by the humans?
    The Kingdom of Lodaeron doesn't exist anymore. Their laws no longer apply.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  20. #180
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    What arguments?
    Now you are just embarrassing yourself.

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