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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That doesn't really count. It's like WoW's own Godwin's Law

    Lich King was creating an army.
    King Varian is creating an army.
    Therefore Humans = Scourge.

    It's the same logic :P
    The Scourge is the Scourge because they were either planning to destroy the world or conquering it all for the Lich King.
    Wow. You really are good at sidestepping obvious truths. The Lich King was an undead king who created an army of undead mindslaves with the intention of making every living sentient being die and join his ranks. I can't even believe you're being serious, not a turn of phrase I honestly think you're joking, that you think The Lich King was no different than any other conqueror.

    Garrosh accused Sylvanus of using a biological weapon to eradicate life from her enemies and the surrounding land they inhabited so she could raise more and more undead troops to continue the pattern.

    Do you know what happens when a living army finished a war? They settle back into society and life goes on. Do you know what happens when a Scourge-like army finishes a war? All life ends.
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  2. #202
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Garrosh accused Sylvanus of using a biological weapon to eradicate life from her enemies and the surrounding land they inhabited so she could raise more and more undead troops to continue the pattern.
    ...and then Garrosh blew Theramore with his honorful and clean manabomb.
    Do you know what happens when a living army finished a war? They settle back into society and life goes on. Do you know what happens when a Scourge-like army finishes a war? All life ends.
    So what? Undeath goes on. Or do you imply that Sylvanas wants to destroy all life in the world? Proof please.
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Then the Forsaken don't have a right to that land either. Yet they insist that they have.[COLOR="red"]
    .
    Forsaken and humans have as much "right" to the land as murlocs.

    Rights dont mean jack shit. Its a made up concept. Its an idea. Rights dont do anything.
    No army has ever been defeated because the other side proclaimed their rights
    The only right that matters is the right of power and strength

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 05:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Do you know what happens when a Scourge-like army finishes a war? All life ends.
    Is undeath not a form of life?
    Or are you saying the Forsaken want to kill themsleves
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  4. #204
    This is off-topic to the current conversation, but not completely to the Forsaken: Could Kel'thuzad come and join the Forsaken? We didn't destroy his phylactery and he was such an awesome character that saw so little love in WoW. I feel like he would add some more badassery to the Forsaken.
    Sylvanas had Varimatharas and I feel now that he's gone, we need a replacement. Sylvanas could keep his phylactery to control him like Thassarian did with that lich in the Borean Tundra.

  5. #205
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Did you forget that it wasn't their idea at all? Blame Garrosh for Gilneas.

    As always, pure-hearted paladins of Good never think of the problem from the Forsaken POV. They think that the only right course of action for an undead nation is to bury themselves and quietly rot.
    To which Sylvanas all to happily took command of. On top of this they had no qualms about trying to kill everybody they came in contact with and as we're aware Sylvanas wanted to kill everyone. Then on top of this we have Southshore which is clearly Forsaken work.Then we have them enslaving others despite the fact they as a race love to comment on free will, which I call hypocrisy.

    I do appreciate the Forsaken have a POV. However just because they have an opinion and/or POV doesn't make it right. I certainly don't think their POV and goals benefit anybody but themselves.

  6. #206
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Forsaken and humans have as much "right" to the land as murlocs.

    Rights dont mean jack shit. Its a made up concept. Its an idea. Rights dont do anything.
    No army has ever been defeated because the other side proclaimed their rights
    The only right that matters is the right of power and strength
    I totally agree with that. That's why I find it hypocritical of the Forsaken to claim that the land is rightfully theirs, because they used to own it in life, and then go to Gilneas and Hillsbrad and try to take the land away from the people living there. If they don't respect the right of other people to their land, why should people respect theirs. They can't complain about the Alliance attacking their land, if they are doing the same thing to other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No, they kill people because they are the enemy.
    Those people are the enemy because they are at war to protect their existence, it's the same as the Alliance is doing to the Horde.
    Then they resurrect them into undead with a free will.

    The Scourge killed people because they wanted to destroy Azeroth and then turned them into mindless undead that were under control of the Lich King.

    You'd have a point if Sylvanas suddenly started to kill Blood Elves to turn them into Forsaken.


    You said they are becoming the Scourge.
    Godwin's Law has everything to do with it, just replace Nazi with Scourge.
    They weren't at war with Gilneas until they attacked them. Gilneas was not part of the Alliance at that point. They were also attacking civilians and farmers.
    Anyway, it seems like you are arguing that the Scourge isn't exactly the same as the Forsaken, which is compeltely pointless, because in the post before that I said that they are not 100% the same. That doesn't change that those 2 factions share the habit of killing people and turning them into undead.

    Are you saying it's ok for the Forsaken, because they are at war with someone? Then it's ok for the Scourge as well, as long as they declare a war on the living.

    Save me and yourself a lot of time by not telling me again that the Scourge and the Forsaken pursue different goals. It's fucking pointless. Everybody knows that and I have no idea what point you're trying to prove.

    As for Godwin's law, it says that every discussion at some point will make some comparison to the Nazis. What the fuck does that have to do with the Scourge? Are you saying that every discussion in a WoW forum will at some point make a comparison to the Scourge? Why because the Forsaken and the Scourge share a commonality? Is this Kangodo's law? In that case, no. I don't think that every discussion in a WoW forum will at some point make a comparison to the Scourge. Only if there is something that is comparable to what the Scourge did. Like with the Forsaken and what they're in doing in raising people into undeath.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2012-12-31 at 10:08 AM.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I totally agree with that. That's why I find it hypocritical of the Forsaken to claim that the land is rightfully theirs, because they used to own it in life, and then go to Gilneas and Hillsbrad and try to take the land away from the people living there. If they don't respect the right of other people to their land, why should people respect theirs. They can't complain about the Alliance attacking their land, if they are doing the same thing to other people.
    The Gilneans and Hillsbradians shouldn't have been living on Forsaken land before the Forsaken got there.
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    If they don't respect the right of other people to their land, why should people respect theirs. They can't complain about the Alliance attacking their land, if they are doing the same thing to other people.
    .
    thats just how people work eh?
    People care more about their own needs and rights more so than other people's rights and needs. Even more so if those other people are considered your enemies.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 10:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I do appreciate the Forsaken have a POV. However just because they have an opinion and/or POV doesn't make it right. I certainly don't think their POV and goals benefit anybody but themselves.
    thats the thing bout Forsaken.
    Them just being a race of undead gives them a very different vibe and perspective on things
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  9. #209
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Gilneans and Hillsbradians shouldn't have been living on Forsaken land before the Forsaken got there.
    I guess in the same way the humans and night elves shouldn't have been living on orc land before the orcs got there.
    It's really their own fault for being in the way. They should've expected them to attack and voluntarily moved out of the way.
    Yeah you basically gave up any serious discussion at this point, right?
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2012-12-31 at 10:33 AM.

  10. #210
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Save me and yourself a lot of time by not telling me again that the Scourge and the Forsaken pursue different goals. It's fucking pointless. Everybody knows that and I have no idea what point you're trying to prove.
    That if they pursue different goals you shouldn't compare them to each other!
    By comparing them you insinuate that the Forsaken is as evil as the Scourge.
    That's what Godwin's Law is about, that a discussion is ruined if you compare something to pure evil just because they share one "innocent" trait.

  11. #211
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That if they pursue different goals you shouldn't compare them to each other!
    By comparing them you insinuate that the Forsaken is as evil as the Scourge.
    That's what Godwin's Law is about, that a discussion is ruined if you compare something to pure evil just because they share one "innocent" trait.
    If the Scourge raise people into undeath and the Forsaken raise people into undeath, then it's perfectly reasonable to compare them to each other. No they aren't 100% the same. Yet you can compare them to each other. How could it possibly be 100% the same? And they share more than just one trait.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 02:48 PM ----------

    I just remembered that bit from Drek'thar in Hillsbrad

    Drek'Thar says: So you have come seeking our aid?
    Drek'Thar coughs.
    Drek'Thar says: I... *cough* I have been alive for a very long time. In that time I have seen and done terrible things.
    Drek'Thar says: Things that still keep me awake at nights.
    Drek'Thar says: But these terrible things that I have done and the people that I have harmed - I know them... I face them... and I feel remorse for them.
    Drek'Thar says: But the Forsaken. *cough* What do they feel?
    Drek'Thar says: They ravage the land and destroy everything that they touch. How many lives have been lost to their vile poisons?
    Drek'Thar says: How many innocents have fallen before the Forsaken war machine?
    Drek'Thar says: Countless... countless lives... *cough*
    Drek'Thar says: Yes... I have done terrible things, but nothing could ever be as terrible as lending aid to the Forsaken.
    Drek'Thar says: You go back to that spineless orc who would not come see me and you tell him that the Frostwolf clan will not aid the Forsaken. Not now, not ever!
    Drek'Thar says: BEGONE!

  12. #212
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    If the Scourge raise people into undeath and the Forsaken raise people into undeath, then it's perfectly reasonable to compare them to each other. No they aren't 100% the same. Yet you can compare them to each other. How could it possibly be 100% the same? And they share more than just one trait.
    No, it's not reasonable.
    Because for every shared trait between the Forsaken and the Scourge, I could come up with a trait shared with the Humans.
    That doesn't mean you can say they are becoming like the Scourge.

    I'm not even going to discuss this fallacy.

    I just remembered that bit from Drek'thar in Hillsbrad
    So? Just because Drek'thar has this opinion doesn't mean it's the truth.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I just remembered that bit from Drek'thar in Hillsbrad
    To be fair Drek'thar is a bit biased just simply because he isnt undead

    To a living person decaying vegetation and fields of fungus and mushrooms is nasty and destruction of otherwise pristine land, but to a Forsaken thats not destruction of land but the better-ment of the land
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-12-31 at 04:14 PM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Ever since Cata they have been Lawful Evil and in Sylvanas's case probably Neutral Evil given how she states in her Short Story to have no regard for the Forsaken and that they are just a tool for her to not die.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeutralEvil
    Sylvanas's needs to be killed, she is a wretched...wicked,spiteful, Bitch!
    Shall I be dramatic and say "You haven't heard the last of me,"?

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  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Duito View Post
    Sylvanas's needs to be killed, she is a wretched...wicked,spiteful, Bitch!
    Thats not a legit reason to kill someone.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Thats not a legit reason to kill someone.
    we kill people in Warcraft for much less reasons
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    The last "rightful heir" of Lordaeron killed them all, why would you possibly think they would hold any love for his sister, a girl that has done nothing of note for anyone in years? At best, they'd see her with resentment if she is still alive, hardly anyone would "love" her. She'd be the remainder of what they lost and what her brother did to them. The Forsaken only hold love and respect for Terenas because he died too.

    As a personal note, I greatly dislike the mentioning of Calia Menethil as an argument. If she is alive, I have nothing against the girl. I hope she is doing her thing and living a fulfilling life. But she's the last remnant of a fallen monarchy, and with all the death and destruction that her blood has brought; her use as an icon or figure would bring more pain than any good, moreso this late. Had she rallied loyalist to the crown after the fall of Lordaeron, she would have been seen as a hero trying to reclaim her throne and redeem her brother's sins. That would have been cool. But after all these years and she keeping quiet, why would any of the battered once and again Lordaeron citzens care for her? where was she when Hillsbrad was left adrift and fighting for survival? where was her when they where finally overrun by the forsaken, and assimilated?

    Calia, at this point, should keep quiet. No one could blame her for retiring and trying to distance herself. But she lost any right to reclaim her throne when she left behind her subjects that didn't die.[COLOR="red"]
    Again - she was a beloved princess. The people of Lordaeron were not mindless idiots to believe that the entire House of Menethil was backing Arthas, especially after the slaughter of Terenas.

    Also, you're assuming that Calia was in a position to do something. First, I'll direct you here: http://www.wowpedia.org/Calia_Menethil where you can scroll down to the Horde RPG portion. Secondly, what loyalists are left? From Tirisfal all the way down to Brill in Southshore, most of the citizens of Lordaeron were turned to Scourge. We don't even know if Calia herself escaped the transformation. Arthas seems to indicate that she didn't.

    Finally, Sylvannas had her moment with the Forsaken, but she let the power corrupt her. Regardless of who replaces her, the fact remains that for the Forsaken to remain a part of the player base without becoming a second Scourge or breaking off into their own faction, there desperately needs to be a regime change.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    Finally, Sylvannas had her moment with the Forsaken, but she let the power corrupt her. Regardless of who replaces her, the fact remains that for the Forsaken to remain a part of the player base without becoming a second Scourge or breaking off into their own faction, there desperately needs to be a regime change.
    Then maybe its for the best that Forsaken become part of the third faction. Them being part of the Horde was bullshit from the start.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Then maybe its for the best that Forsaken become part of the third faction. Them being part of the Horde was bullshit from the start.
    its make sense to some degree

    The Forsaken at that time were a shaggy bunch just getting on their feet. They needed help to contend with powerful enemies in the form of the Alliance, Scourge, and Scarlet Crusade

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 05:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    Finally, Sylvannas had her moment with the Forsaken, but she let the power corrupt her. Regardless of who replaces her, the fact remains that for the Forsaken to remain a part of the player base without becoming a second Scourge or breaking off into their own faction, there desperately needs to be a regime change.
    Whats wrong with having a shady race? Some people enjoy that kinda feel/vibe.

    We cant have every race be bright and shiny good two shoes.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  20. #220
    Stood in the Fire Shefu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totle View Post
    Finally, Sylvannas had her moment with the Forsaken, but she let the power corrupt her. Regardless of who replaces her, the fact remains that for the Forsaken to remain a part of the player base without becoming a second Scourge or breaking off into their own faction, there desperately needs to be a regime change.
    And how exactly would you see a Forsaken leadership? One of peace and love, Pandaren style? For God sakes, people within our own faction dislike us simply for being undead, without a strong leader, we would be Azeroth's punching bag. If anything, Sylvannas is the only one that can actually keep everyone in check. Not to mention that she's the only one in the Horde that has the balls to stand up to Garrosh. Thrall retired, Vol'jin laid low till now, and got bitch slapped, barely made it alive. Baine is just chilling, and the Goblin leader is ....where exactly is he? Lor'themar can not be trusted, he wanted to rejoin Alliance, is interesting how he became regent Lord when Halduron was Sylvanna's second in command, if anything he should have been chosen. Bottom line is, as evil as some of you make her out to be, she would be the only one fit to actually lead this God Forsaken Horde.

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