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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Jesus, you're almost as annoying as I am.
    /standing ovation!

    BTW Illidan will be back, it was confirmed by their lead quest designer

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    /standing ovation!

    BTW Illidan will be back, it was confirmed by their lead quest designer
    Metzen said it's likely they'll bring him back, but that wasn't even the point I was making. Just that someone who is currently dead can't "get over it".

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Metzen said it's likely they'll bring him back, but that wasn't even the point I was making. Just that someone who is currently dead can't "get over it".
    The Metzen thing was 2 years ago, Dave Kosak confirmed it recently in a 20 min Q/A.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    The Metzen thing was 2 years ago, Dave Kosak confirmed it recently in a 20 min Q/A.
    It's still beside the point. I never doubted Illidan could come back. But just out of interest, where is that Q and A with Kosak?
    Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2013-01-02 at 09:20 PM.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Oh my, it turns out there was a war there, and someone had to kill someone. And what a horror, they were good at it and fought without hesitation!
    Great! Then we can both both agree that using Garrosh as a scapegoat doesn't work given her attitude to it. Not to mention how Sylvanas also wanted the invasion anyway so that she could get her hands on the Scythe of Elune.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Examples. Raised mages and militia fought together with regular troops. Marshal Redpath and Lilian Voss were let go wherever they wanted.
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Emberstone_Mine
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Slaves_to_No_One
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Liberation_Day
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Push_Them_Out

    So not only do we have slavery of civilians that are treated like dirt, but those who can't mine are used as living experiments.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Isn't it normal to think about themselves? Do humans think about well-being of orcs?
    Well apparently by the end of MoP the Orcs will for the second time be in a situation where the Alliance can kill them all - and they don't.
    There are many examples of individuals being racist to Orcs, just as all other races are. But as a race they are not inclined to wipe out all Orcs in manner similar to how the Undead treat the other races by any stretch of the imagination.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Well apparently by the end of MoP the Orcs will for the second time be in a situation where the Alliance can kill them all - and they don't.
    There are many examples of individuals being racist to Orcs, just as all other races are. But as a race they are not inclined to wipe out all Orcs in manner similar to how the Undead treat the other races by any stretch of the imagination.
    Well you can see how Forsaken wont be making same mistake as humans.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    It's still beside the point. I never doubted Illidan could come back. But just out of interest, where is that Q and A with Kosak?
    Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPF5kGZ7mQM

  8. #248
    They were never exactly "evil." I think their image has pretty much stayed the same, except that now they are a little more empowered (and thus more ambitious) with their plague and whatnot. Their goals and allegiances have remained unchanged. Of course, I wish the Forsaken, and Horde in general, would swing a little more toward the evil side, rather than just being a misunderstood faction every bit as "good" as the Alliance.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Ah I remember that one. I stopped listening when they kept spoiling stuff for me. That's probably why I missed it.

    edit: So he said we shouldn't expect him in 5.0 and that what happens to him is still a mystery. That's not a confirmation. Even Metzen's "It's likely we'll bring him back" is more of a confirmation than this.
    Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2013-01-02 at 10:24 PM.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Great! Then we can both both agree that using Garrosh as a scapegoat doesn't work given her attitude to it. Not to mention how Sylvanas also wanted the invasion anyway so that she could get her hands on the Scythe of Elune.
    Erm, you're still blaming an effective subordinate for the masterplan of his boss. You don't blame all Alliance soldiers for the wickedness of that asshole commander who ordered the butchery of Taurajo, do you?
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Emberstone_Mine
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Slaves_to_No_One
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Liberation_Day
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Push_Them_Out

    So not only do we have slavery of civilians that are treated like dirt, but those who can't mine are used as living experiments.
    I stand corrected. However, Forsaken aren't the only ones who have ever employed slave labor. Let's not forget about all that orcs did to draenei, and then during the First and Second war. Then about places like Durnholde.
    Well apparently by the end of MoP the Orcs will for the second time be in a situation where the Alliance can kill them all - and they don't.
    There are many examples of individuals being racist to Orcs, just as all other races are. But as a race they are not inclined to wipe out all Orcs in manner similar to how the Undead treat the other races by any stretch of the imagination.
    You're making things up. Again, you imply that they are another villainous organisation like Twilight Cult that wants to take over the world. Time and again Forsaken state their cause: to found their own state, carve themselves a place in the world, and all who stand in the way just seal their fate. They've never been the most sentimental and compassionate ones, given their undead state and history of being (literally) forsaken.

  11. #251
    ya me too miss the old wow

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Erm, you're still blaming an effective subordinate for the masterplan of his boss. You don't blame all Alliance soldiers for the wickedness of that asshole commander who ordered the butchery of Taurajo, do you?
    No you don't blame subordinates in the case if they dismissed their superiors, particularly before and during the questionable events. But as we're aware such cases of guilt are hard to determine in a legitimate manner. If you look at the Purge of Stratholme we had soldiers openly saying they disagreed with Arthas as we're aware those people in the end didn't have any negative consequences because of Arthas.

    I'm not saying that Garrosh should be absolved of guilt. But I'm saying pointing the finger at him and calling Sylvanas innocent is just flat out wrong.
    At times she was determined to wipe out all life Gilneas and seemed to be pretty content with using Gilneas as the staging ground to try out the Forsaken's newly found strengths. Then at times she was just apathetic.
    If she was truly an innocent party she would have flat out refused or at least argued not to invade, but she didn't. Instead we see her being quite content to kill everybody which is not the attitude of somebody who's being prodded into action.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    You're making things up.
    Where?
    End of the Second War the Alliance could've killed all Orcs - they didn't.
    Now at the end of MoP we will have the Alliance invading Orgrimmar and as Metzen has said they are not there for blood or to destroy Orgrimmar and are instead just there for Garrosh.
    Whereas the Forsaken in every conflict so far have gone out of their way to kill everybody they come in contact with and chase them down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Again, you imply that they are another villainous organisation like Twilight Cult that wants to take over the world. Time and again Forsaken state their cause: to found their own state, carve themselves a place in the world, and all who stand in the way just seal their fate. They've never been the most sentimental and compassionate ones, given their undead state and history of being (literally) forsaken.
    I don't know if they currently wish to conquer Azeroth. But they're doing a damn good job of implying it by moving out and trying to conquer everywhere then we have our quote by a Deathguard "Look before you now, and see the product of the new Forsaken. We have made our mark here on Azeroth, and that mark will grow. Our dominion will soon blanket the world!"

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    No you don't blame subordinates in the case if they dismissed their superiors, particularly before and during the questionable events. But as we're aware such cases of guilt are hard to determine in a legitimate manner. If you look at the Purge of Stratholme we had soldiers openly saying they disagreed with Arthas as we're aware those people in the end didn't have any negative consequences because of Arthas.

    I'm not saying that Garrosh should be absolved of guilt. But I'm saying pointing the finger at him and calling Sylvanas innocent is just flat out wrong.
    At times she was determined to wipe out all life Gilneas and seemed to be pretty content with using Gilneas as the staging ground to try out the Forsaken's newly found strengths. Then at times she was just apathetic.
    If she was truly an innocent party she would have flat out refused or at least argued not to invade, but she didn't. Instead we see her being quite content to kill everybody which is not the attitude of somebody who's being prodded into action.
    You judge from a human standpoint again. It's different for an undead. Killing somebody is no big deal when you've been killed once yourself. Just rez him and there's a good chance you'll watch cockroach fights together.
    Where?
    End of the Second War the Alliance could've killed all Orcs - they didn't.
    Now at the end of MoP we will have the Alliance invading Orgrimmar and as Metzen has said they are not there for blood or to destroy Orgrimmar and are instead just there for Garrosh.
    Whereas the Forsaken in every conflict so far have gone out of their way to kill everybody they come in contact with and chase them down.
    By the way, Greymane insisted that all orcs should've been executed. And we don't know yet how the end of MoP plays out. Maybe just as friendly as the Battle for Undercity when Jaina iced everyone and ported allies out, lest Varian tried to gut the world's most interesting shaman.
    I don't know if they currently wish to conquer Azeroth. But they're doing a damn good job of implying it by moving out and trying to conquer everywhere then we have our quote by a Deathguard "Look before you now, and see the product of the new Forsaken. We have made our mark here on Azeroth, and that mark will grow. Our dominion will soon blanket the world!"
    Hey, if I start to selectively quote random soldiers... How 'bout this: http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Blood_Elf_Plans - it shows that draenei want to commit genocide on blood elves.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    You judge from a human standpoint again. It's different for an undead. Killing somebody is no big deal when you've been killed once yourself. Just rez him and there's a good chance you'll watch cockroach fights together.
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this. I know the Forsaken are different and don't care about/have a twisted morality.
    But just because they have a different system doesn't suddenly excuse them of their actions regardless of their twisted motivations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    By the way, Greymane insisted that all orcs should've been executed. And we don't know yet how the end of MoP plays out. Maybe just as friendly as the Battle for Undercity when Jaina iced everyone and ported allies out, lest Varian tried to gut the world's most interesting shaman.
    We've been specifically told by Metzen that Varian is there exclusively for Garrosh and isn't there to wipe out the Orcs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Hey, if I start to selectively quote random soldiers... How 'bout this: http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Blood_Elf_Plans - it shows that draenei want to commit genocide on blood elves.
    Bear in mind the mentality and social structure of the Forsaken. They are a very singularly opinionated race which is very much partly due to Sylvanas's cult of personality.
    Also I really don't know what point you're trying to make, I gave that quote as an example that the Forsaken themselves definitely seem to show signs of wanting to conquer Azeroth and are definitely acting like after they attacked everywhere within arms reach. Some Draenei hated Blood Elves because of their actions, but in the end guess what?
    As a race they decided it would be better to save them and work with them and in the end reignite the Sunwell. Compared to the Forsaken who are actually going around conquering places which very much goes hand in hand with my quote.

  15. #255
    I think it has been the same?

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this. I know the Forsaken are different and don't care about/have a twisted morality.
    But just because they have a different system doesn't suddenly excuse them of their actions regardless of their twisted motivations.
    Oh c'mon, for several posts you've been trying to prove that a good, effective soldier should have his own judgement, doubts, opinion, compassion to enemy and high moral standarts? The only thing a good soldier should do is execute orders, no more, no less. Which they do.
    We've been specifically told by Metzen that Varian is there exclusively for Garrosh and isn't there to wipe out the Orcs.
    We've been told we'll get dance studios. Anyway, where's that info from? I wonder what else is to come.
    Bear in mind the mentality and social structure of the Forsaken. They are a very singularly opinionated race which is very much partly due to Sylvanas's cult of personality.
    Also I really don't know what point you're trying to make, I gave that quote as an example that the Forsaken themselves definitely seem to show signs of wanting to conquer Azeroth and are definitely acting like after they attacked everywhere within arms reach. Some Draenei hated Blood Elves because of their actions, but in the end guess what?
    As a race they decided it would be better to save them and work with them and in the end reignite the Sunwell. Compared to the Forsaken who are actually going around conquering places which very much goes hand in hand with my quote.
    It's not outside Lordaeron, actually, so my point still stands. In the end, time will show. And I'm 99% sure they won't pull a "racial leader gone insane and now we raid their city" card on the same side yet again. Keep gameplay mechanics in mind, the story has to obey it. Whatever happens, Forsaken will be a part of the Horde and will be playable, hence, arguably good because of fighting common evils. And Sylvanas is likely to stay her way because of several factors, such as her being the most discussed (seriously, count these "Sylvanas must be evil!" threads and count threads about Wrynn or Velen), ambiguous and one of the most active characters and not dying despite countless opportunities. Without her it will become boring, honorable paladins vs. honorable orcs, who needs that? Look at how they regret wasting Illidan and how community craves him back - I doubt they will do such mistake again.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Oh c'mon, for several posts you've been trying to prove that a good, effective soldier should have his own judgement, doubts, opinion, compassion to enemy and high moral standarts? The only thing a good soldier should do is execute orders, no more, no less. Which they do.
    Then we disagree on what a soldier is. I think they should have some empathy and an opinion in a war they're fighting that isn't simply a copy and paste of a leader they blindly follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    We've been told we'll get dance studios. Anyway, where's that info from? I wonder what else is to come.
    http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/mi...zen-interview/

    I have asked the guys to have one of the main objectives, you know like when you're going through a dungeon and you have those little side quests? Well, one of the main side quests is Varian being very specific: "Protect the kids. We're not here to conquer these people; we're here to bring down a guy that needs bringin' down." So imagine artillery, imagine the soldiers -- it's gonna be horrific -- but Varian saying, "We're the good guys. We're not here to massacre or enact vengeance on these people. They've been put upon by a bad man."

    He specifically mentions that he was specific to the development team about what Varian is doing, this is is something that is going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    It's not outside Lordaeron, actually, so my point still stands. In the end, time will show. And I'm 99% sure they won't pull a "racial leader gone insane and now we raid their city" card on the same side yet again. Keep gameplay mechanics in mind, the story has to obey it. Whatever happens, Forsaken will be a part of the Horde and will be playable, hence, arguably good because of fighting common evils. And Sylvanas is likely to stay her way because of several factors, such as her being the most discussed (seriously, count these "Sylvanas must be evil!" threads and count threads about Wrynn or Velen), ambiguous and one of the most active characters and not dying despite countless opportunities. Without her it will become boring, honorable paladins vs. honorable orcs, who needs that? Look at how they regret wasting Illidan and how community craves him back - I doubt they will do such mistake again.
    Ofcourse we're not seeing them outside of Lordaeron, regardless of their ultimate aim it's still their first objective, not to mention the simply fact that they can only conquer Lordaeron atm as it's the only zone that's within their reach atm.
    I don't think we should raid UC to kill Sylvanas as it's been done twice already pretty much. But I think she's too far gone to have a redemption story of any kind. I just don't see any way in which she can truly grow as a character that doesn't include her death or her going further and further down this new dark path of hers.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainiothon View Post
    Not really. The Forsaken campaign in all the neighbouring zones display them conquering and crushing local resistance, spreading as far as Arathi Highlands. If you played Vanilla you carried out a vigilante campaign against the Hillsbrad town collecting the skulls of workers, soldiers and town officials. This is extended to the creation of a concentration camp in Cataclysm (admittedly run by a rogue Forsaken who went mad, but still). I think the emphasis on their evil is now a more imperialistic, depraved and cruel vein, rather than the generalized sinister vibes they had in Vanilla. I see what you mean by the concept of free will being more emphasized though.
    This sums it up pretty well. The Forsaken went from bitter nihilists to fascists vying for Triumph des Willens.

  19. #259
    Bear in mind the mentality and social structure of the Forsaken. They are a very singularly opinionated race which is very much partly due to Sylvanas's cult of personality.
    That's non sense. The Forsaken come in all shapes and sizes like every other race.
    There's one that's lonely and wants a pet murloc, there's one cowering in a hut after facing the Worgen, there's one who just wants to fish, there's one in the Argent Dawn, there's one who is proud of his legacy of cleaning guano, there's one who gladly gave her life for the dark lady and so many, many more unique Forsaken all around Azeroth. I could spend all day just bringing up how unique the Forsaken really are.

    That said, I agree that of all playable races they are the most evil.
    They're a twisted race both on the outside as on the inside, even when it comes to simple things like fishing or cooking the Forsaken's approach would not be called sane by most other races.
    But in these days of war, genocide, torture and slavery shown in several races you can't exactly pretend to be high and mighty and act disgusted at the crimes of the Forsaken.

    What started out as necessity has since then become greed and we all know it.
    Right now they're still just taking what they believe is theirs but I highly doubt the Forsaken will stop there.
    As for the war with the Worgen it was inevitable, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elexo View Post
    That's non sense. The Forsaken come in all shapes and sizes like every other race.
    There's one that's lonely and wants a pet murloc, there's one cowering in a hut after facing the Worgen, there's one who just wants to fish, there's one in the Argent Dawn, there's one who is proud of his legacy of cleaning guano, there's one who gladly gave her life for the dark lady and so many, many more unique Forsaken all around Azeroth. I could spend all day just bringing up how unique the Forsaken really are.
    That's not quite what I meant. I'm talking about the social ideals and attitudes towards other races and general ideology not a Forsaken who wants a pet, this is all due to their worship of Sylvanas. Also your example of Bartholomew is invalid as he is not Forsaken and is Undead - yes there's a difference. One is a race one and is a faction of the race. Those that disagreed with the Forsaken (Sylvanas) have since left or been killed off as traitors.

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