Why does Blizzard support something so broken?

[bungeebungee]

Why do you insist on knowing everything about my play style?

Because you can't have your cake and eat it too. The core of your entitlement claim is that Blizzard changed your play experience, you're claiming that you were a victim. If you are a PVP pro, then you know what PVP realms open you up to. Endus has already addressed that extensively, you've established that you should know better. You continue to dance around things like gearing suggestions and keep coming back to a complaint about CRZ. At some point, I have to wonder. What's your point? You already posted substantially the same thing on the PVP forums and you knew what the response would be.

Blizzard IMHO can ill afford even more PR problems. Now a sane and rational community would acknowledge this and ask Blizzard to do something about it. Instead this community tells players their wrong and adds to their frustration further encouraging players to leave.

What Blizzard, and game designers in general, can afford even less is to allow themselves to be ruled by forums. It is naive to assume that what one reads is an accurate reflection of what gamers want. Set aside talk of echo chambers and selection bias, one of the problems is the way companies use the Internet to manipulate audiences. Today, what you read may be an honest post from a real player, or it can just be astroturfing -- some of which is ham handed and obvious, but that isn't always the case. An idea gets planted, the mob gets riled up, out come the pitchforks and torches. Not everyone is an astroturfer, but that alone doesn't make them legit either. See, you're probably wondering right now if I'm a fanboi or somebody Blizzard has planted. If you are, that's more or less my point; if you can't trust one side of the debate it is unlikely that the other side is any more trustworthy.

Now, let me loan you my tinfoil hat. Darthcullen may just be a reasonably articulate sixteen year old, or he could an older guy working for a company that has an interest in playing up discontent with CRZ. Why? Who knows, but as a hypothetical reason, I'll refer you to your comment on PR. Empty servers are something people have been complaining about, but if Blizz closes servers it will trigger a flood of "ZOMG, WoW is dying". World of Warcraft is built on old code, CRZ is a rough work-in-progress kind of fix, but it moves away from the server based model. Do I really think that there is some sinister plan like that? No, OP is quite likely a sixteen year old with entitlement issues and other things he'd prefer to use his allowance on; however, there are a number of odd inconsistencies in his posts and it is equally possible that he's just jerking a chain that he knows will stir people up. We don't know, and that's why forums shouldn't be permitted to become a form of mob rule.

[sac]

i agree with everyone else. pvp gear is ur best bet..the bad news..ur a monk...theres only a 90 set...if ur cousin quit? i would suggest another option...reroll alliance or make a rogue get it 90 1st and use his funds to forward ur toon. 1 of the more OP classes always works..as for a monk there really hard to play well in pvp atm and when i tried 2's on mine not only was i the 1st and only target but being a monk ur the only leather non stealth class..actually if i made stealth a defense? yours would be second lowest only lower armor would be a lock.

[Darthcullen]

Now, let me loan you my tinfoil hat. Darthcullen may just be a reasonably articulate sixteen year old, or he could an older guy working for a company that has an interest in playing up discontent with CRZ. Why? Who knows, but as a hypothetical reason, I'll refer you to your comment on PR. Empty servers are something people have been complaining about, but if Blizz closes servers it will trigger a flood of "ZOMG, WoW is dying". World of Warcraft is built on old code, CRZ is a rough work-in-progress kind of fix, but it moves away from the server based model. Do I really think that there is some sinister plan like that? No, OP is quite likely a sixteen year old with entitlement issues and other things he'd prefer to use his allowance on; however, there are a number of odd inconsistencies in his posts and it is equally possible that he's just jerking a chain that he knows will stir people up. We don't know, and that's why forums shouldn't be permitted to become a form of mob rule.

Okay well we had trouble getting there but you pretty much take the cake on what I want/think. I am very much fine with normal wpvp be it same levels, but I am more pve minded. Yes it is very much the definition of entitlement for me to want a free realm transfer so again spot on. The only valid complaint I really have is that my troubles are directly from a blizzard change but again their change was designed to increase population in zones so the change is definitely not designed to make me mad, just an unfortunate result. However I have no inconsistencies between threads like you mentioned, you just misunderstood them horribly (sorry)

[Ferocity]

OP, meanwhlie I hate CRZ with all heart, I can't really agree with your post. You are referring to getting ganked on PvP-server, but people should look on what server they roll. Only problem with that is pre-CRZ most of progressed guilds have rolled on PvP-servers where one faction always dominated (thus removing PvP out of the question) or simply was less PvP-accented due to being servers with big PvE progress, so some people transferred to PvP servers for PvE progress, still it was their choice.

Only 1 thing I can agree with you - CRZ must go and apologies to be brought. Questing on PvE server is impossible, I tried to level my alt this week, and I got stuck in Westfall on second quest - to get some drop from murloc. And there is no longer murlocs - I checked for them for 3 days: they are always dead, I managed to kill only 1 but he didn't drop quest item. Thanks to friend, he boosted me to lv15, and then it's all about dungeon finder. Now if quest mobs are an issue - CRZ resource nodes or rare mobs are completely out of the question and out of existence.

[Althalus]

Same realm as my cousin. Are you even reading the thread?[COLOR="red"]

I have read it but you said in your first post you joined in vanilla that leads me to think you should know better by now after 7/8 years of playing WoW.
So to me when you created your monk you should have known what a PVP realm meant and that ganking lowbies was and is possible.
Also CRZ was implemented pre-MOP release so if you followed the forums you should have known the problems attached to CRZ.

[Deadite]

Man up and pay the 25 dollars, if ur friends dont wanna follow just transfer to an PVE server in same battlegroup...problem fixed.
And if u cant afford the 25 dollars, u got bigger problems than being killed in a video game

You may want to sit down. The knowledge i am about to drop on you will probably make you faint. After 8 years some people....... have more than one character!!! Shocking i know. Some people have 3 , 5 or even 10!

Blizzard moved the goal posts. You went from knowing you might be getting ganked and it being an acceptable risk to being ganked to the point you can no longer enjoy the game. Sounds like the OP has every right to complain. I guess the 'PVP HAPPENED ON A PVP REALM!' covers any sort of complaint for most of you guys tho. Seeing both sides of a problem seems to beyond most people on these forums.

[galileoacosta]

roll pve realm, cant take the heat, gtfo the kitchen

[MasterOfKnees]

I feel you, I was unfortunate enough to join a PvP server back when I didn't know what the differences were between the realms. Had I known that PvP meant getting ganked constantly, well, fuck no I wouldn't have gone on Tarren Mill, and no way am I server transfering all of my characters, not everybody has a lot of cash to hand out to Blizzard. All they need is a little switch to turn CRZ on and off, that's all.

[Wikkr]

this is another of those threads from people who want the 'prestige' of playing on a pvp realm but only if its empty so they dont have to actually pvp. To the OP and all those whineing about CRZ do what i did either reroll on a pve server or even better dump all yer heirlooms on yer main toon and pay to move him over.

Lvling on a pve realm is a breeze you will literally be to max lvl in no time flat even without heirlooms. Why continue banging your head against the wall and even worse whineing about it when you are the ones who havent bothered to do anything about it.

I moved when half our main raiding team decided they where joining a horde guild on a pve server (had to pay for the move and the faction change) only brought 1 toon over but now have 9x90's 3 of which are raid ready.

The main reason most of they whiners wont move is purely cause they dont want to miss out on ganking when they make max lvl

[Jawless Jones]

blizztard should remove the xfer fee imo, it costs jack-shit for them to do it as its mostly automatic anyway...

srsly, i know i will be ganked on a pvp realm, but i have been ganked so often (and by fucking randoms from a different server who i would normally NEVER EVEN SEE)that ive given up making alts to enjoy the questing at their intended level

even launch of BC wasnt this bad...

CRZ sucks ass and blizzard is too stubborn to do anything about other than say "slow down" and "pvp happened to you from a guy whose not even on your server so you have no way of getting back at him hahahahahahah now pay us 25 bucks per character if you want it to stop"

[romara]

So you decided to eat in the smokers section because nobody was around, then the smokers arrived and now you want them to stop smoking.

Smoking is against the law in restaurants here in NY. Why? Because the majority didn't like it.

[UnifiedDivide]

I saw this....

I can't do dungeons, my ilvl isn't high enough. I can't quest to level, both areas are filled with level 90 alliance players that gank me immediately. I am literally stuck at level 80 because of these broken CRZ's. I joined a pvp realm in vanilla with my cousin because he had fun doing real wpvp leveling up to 60. Then it died and never showed a spark of returning. CRZ's I assume, were an attempt to bring wpvp back, but turned out to be the single most annoying thing in the game. The design of a pvp realm has changed, and I feel like I am entitled to a free realm swap over to a lower population even pve realm. I am literally incapable of leveling in any efficient form whatsoever, and it is because of one broken system that Blizzard backs for some reason. Another thing; after I get ganked and head back to the main area with guards, I use my ONE heal (expel harm) and it seeks out a nearby enemy (tons of alliance players thanks to CRZ's) and makes the guards hostile so I die again. This is total bull feces.

... and then this. And then nothing made sense to me.

No pvp did not happen at all in the time I went through vanilla and the start of bc, then the end of wotlk onward. I am perfectly in my rights to attribute the changes in gameplay to the CRZ changes. It is also right to attribute the changes to my own decisions. My decision was the first though, thus I feel like it should not be punished by a change made later. If I joined a pvp realm after the CRZ changes then I am at greater fault, but since I started before, and there was NO anticipation by anyone that in the future, whole areas would be made unplayable by pvp, I am at less fault for the changes in gameplay.

Did you ever do any PvP at all from Vanilla to now? If not, no wonder you think CRZ has changed what a PvP realm is all about :S

[Endus]

You may want to sit down. The knowledge i am about to drop on you will probably make you faint. After 8 years some people....... have more than one character!!! Shocking i know. Some people have 3 , 5 or even 10!

You don't need to transfer all your alts, you know. I've changed servers twice in the past, and only ever transferred one character, leaving behind 5-6 max-level alts each time. I just level more.

Blizzard moved the goal posts. You went from knowing you might be getting ganked and it being an acceptable risk to being ganked to the point you can no longer enjoy the game. Sounds like the OP has every right to complain. I guess the 'PVP HAPPENED ON A PVP REALM!' covers any sort of complaint for most of you guys tho. Seeing both sides of a problem seems to beyond most people on these forums.

The thing is, we DO see both sides. I totally understand that you don't like being ganked on an active PvP realm. That's why I'm suggesting you choose the server type you'd prefer, rather than trying to ruin the one I prefer, which you hate.

Nobody's arguing that you should like your PvP server with all the crazy ganking. We're saying you're responsible for the consequences of your own decisions. If it was an informed choice and you thought you would like a PvP server, you made a mistake. It happens. If you made an uninformed choice and didn't understand what a PvP server meant, that's not Blizzard's fault, it's yours. Either way, the result is your responsibility, as it was your choice.

It's not Blizzard's obligation to take care of it. It's yours. Yes, Blizzard "moved the goal posts". As it states they can and will regularly, in the TOU you signed off on. It didn't move them outside the rules you agreed to, it merely enabled them.

[Deadite]

You don't need to transfer all your alts, you know. I've changed servers twice in the past, and only ever transferred one character, leaving behind 5-6 max-level alts each time. I just level more.

Good for you. I doubt many people would have the time or patience to build up a full roster again. Trade skills alone would be a nightmare.

The thing is, we DO see both sides. I totally understand that you don't like being ganked on an active PvP realm. That's why I'm suggesting you choose the server type you'd prefer, rather than trying to ruin the one I prefer, which you hate.

Well i don't play my char on my pvp server anymore. Why would i? No one wants to be fodder for guys you have no chance of killing. World pvp is now nothing more than a glorified random battleground. They are the same as Warhammer or SWToR's battle grounds system without the bolster mechanics. While i can see that killing a lvl 14 guy until he logs out and quits that game is no doubt great fun for people with that mentality i choose not to participate. Sadly tho thanks to CRZ people like that who were pretty rare back in the good old days are now the norm.

In the end i agree that if you cant take the heat bollocks that gets spouted on these thread. Blizzard dumped this shit ball into the game without any prior warning. I can see you will defend them to the death with 'Its their game and they can do what they want!' point of view but its a dick move imho. They should at the very least given people the heads up so they could move or give them a free transfer if they were feeling nice. Instead they just stuck down a big fuck you sign and held out their hand for the $25. I guess i am just peeing on your parade tho as a good while ago my friends started playing on a PVE realm and my guys on my PVP realm have been a side project for a while now. I have seen how bad it has gotten so i can see were the OP is coming from. Going from one extreme to the other is always going to piss people off.

[Endus]

Good for you. I doubt many people would have the time or patience to build up a full roster again. Trade skills alone would be a nightmare.

It wasn't meant to be a brag. It's not that hard, especially if you level an alt as Mine/herbing and either sell the proceeds, or stock them up against future powerleveling of whatever you want. With account-wide achievements, mounts, and pets, you keep a fair bit on a new alt these days.

Well i don't play my char on my pvp server anymore. Why would i? No one wants to be fodder for guys you have no chance of killing.

That bit I put in bold is absolutely not true, and is the root of the issue here. Some people, like yourself, don't like it. The issue is that you're projecting that personal preference onto everyone else.

I've played on PvP servers since the beginning. I don't gank, for the most part. The reason I play on them is that constant threat and the resulting extra boost of adrenaline when I see a red name go winging overhead. I absolutely do want to be fodder. That's why I picked this server type. There are a ton of others who made a similar decision.

Nor is this me talking about how it used to be. I've leveled three alts to 80+ since CRZ was launched. I am fully aware of what the post-CRZ leveling experience on a PvP server is like, and it's exactly what I want. That's I, and others, are so staunch about this. We like CRZ. For the reasons you hate it. It's is not objectively "bad". The issue is that you don't like the consequences of your server choice. So change it. It really is that simple.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

When you roll on a PvP realm, you might have certain expectations about the kinds of PvP Encounters you'll experience on that realm that is more complicated than just knowing you'll have to fight high level characters (i.e. knowing the server is PvP and not PvE). If you're in this thread saying "PvP is PvP and PvE is PvE," you're failing to realize that there are other factors that go into realm picking other than just the PvP/PvE label. For example, before CRZ, if I'm playing on Illidan Alliance, I'm going to realize that the server heavily favors Horde and that I'm going to be outnumbered in the world while leveling. I might choose another server where encounters with the other faction are much less frequent, but still often enough that I can get some occasional enjoyment in World PvP. I might choose a server where I'm constantly in danger of being killed, but also will have plenty of targets to kill if I see them out in the world. Or I might choose a server that's a balance between the two.

CRZ has changed that. Whatever reasons you may have chosen a particular server don't necessarily apply in the older zones now. To claim that it's the player's fault for choosing Server X when it was Blizzard that changed how Server X operates with regards to world PvP is silly.

As for leveling with CRZ, I personally never found it to be a problem except with the level 50-62 zones. The trickiest parts of Hyjal are when you have to go into the portals, since you can't really skip quests there, but other than that you can just fly around or just do Vashjir where people aren't on flying mounts/everyone moves at the same speed.

[Deadite]

I absolutely do want to be fodder.

No offence but i would wager money that most people don't have your masochistic tendencies. I would think Joe Average would rather not be killed over and over and over just so some level 90 guy can feel awesome.

The issue is that you don't like the consequences of your server choice. So change it. It really is that simple.

Well that's the funny thing. What consequences? To use pvp vernacular, wow pvp realms are the most carebear pvp i have ever seen. All you lose being killed is time. Time i don't want to waste so i play my PvE realm guys. It is laughable reading all these guys in the thread puffing up there chests like they are bad asses. Bring back UO rules. If you get killed then you get looted of all your gear. Kill enough guys and anyone in the game can kill you freely. Go even further. Remove guards from towns. There should be no safe zones if you want the wild west. No flying mounts either. If you are a true pvper you would welcome these changes. If your the sort of guy the swoop's down to kill a lowbie then fly away when his main comes then i guess you won't like them. Bring to PvP realms some real consequences. That would be a pvp realm i would spend time on. What we have now is far to many shite bags that fly away when some one who can actually put up a fight shows up. I have seen it all to often.

[Adramalech]

No that's not accurate either. Calling the abuse of crz by the nehrdowells and general assholes in the game "pvp" is the problem. Again the better example is sitting in a smoking section and having somebody come over and ash in your soup. Yea I sat in the smoking section, I didn't expect that to mean someone would dump their cigarette in my fillet mignon.

You almost had a point there. Almost. Except for your point to be valid, you'd have to be in a PvE realm, where dumping cigars in your food is forbidden, and someone hopped in from a PvP realm, dumping their cigar in your filet mignon. Yet, this is not the case. In a PvP realm, people are allowed to dump their cigars on your food, they're even entitled to poop on it if that's what they want. And considering PvP realms are only linked to other PvP realms, you submitted yourself to being shat on.

I realize I may be overcomplicating the analogy, but realize something: the braindead reply "PvP happened on a PvP realm" is actually correct, and applies to this situation, hence why you have someone saying it every now and then. No, I don't consider griefing and camping low level players as any kind of PvP, nor do I do it or support it. But as it stands now, and has always stood for 8 years, it is allowed on PvP realms, and it is not against the rules to do this. It has never been. The difference now, is that people are dining on your favourite restaurant instead of the small burger place next to their home, and since there's more people, the situation seems to have never been there before, when in fact, it has been there since the restaurant opened.

You may not like it, but it doesn't mean they'll bend to your dislikes and change a feature to allow you to have a safe trip to level 90. If all the whining about CRZ does prove to not be more smoke than fire, then I'm sure they'll change something. However, if not enough people are unhappy with it, expect your character to remain as a corpse. And I'd wager not enough people are mad enough at dying a few times on the way to 90 to cause this. CRZ will keep getting changes and updates as needed, but I highly doubt changing the fundamental mechanic of PvP realms that has been established since the very first day will be one of those changes.

[XDurionX]

Once you´re the victim, it´s "ganking", when you´re not it´s "real world pvp", right?

[bungeebungee]

However I have no inconsistencies between threads like you mentioned, you just misunderstood them horribly (sorry)

I joined a pvp realm in vanilla with my cousin because he had fun doing real wpvp leveling up to 60.

When I first rolled my characters on a PvP realm, I did so 2 or 3 years ago because my cousin was on that realm and it was not an issue.

I honestly just want to experience pve content with my cousin. That's it. So I transfered from my pve realm to pvp with one of my main toons so that we could pve together. He joined a pvp realm to participate in wpvp in vanilla when it made sense.

Yep. That's just trying to figure out when you say you started and whether you rolled on a PVP realm or an 8 year old transferred his main to one. I'll forbear mentioning the amount of suspension of belief it takes to imagine an 8 year old grinding to 60 in Vanilla.