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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    I agree w/ most on here that say that a lot of people don't know how to play BrMs. I've been in groups with terrible Monk tanks even at high levels. Heck, it took me awhile before I realized that shuffle stacked. That revelation turned my entire tanking game around.

  2. #22
    Its not bad but personally I dont like its lack of cooldowns.

  3. #23
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Its not bad but personally I dont like its plethora of cooldowns.
    Fix'd

    Shuffle, Elusive Brew, and Guard are basically extra cds we just treat them as givens.

  4. #24
    As soon as they make stagger effect all forms of damage, monks will always be sub-par when it comes to magical encounters.

    Other than that monks are pretty good. Good mobility, a good amount of CD's (Could do with 1 more maybe) and a nice active mitigation ability.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Fix'd

    Shuffle, Elusive Brew, and Guard are basically extra cds we just treat them as givens.
    Shuffle is hardly a cooldown, its preemptive mitigation.
    Elusive Brew is random and not a guarentee. I prefer predictable damage intake over random spike damage. Its useful when it works, pointless when it doesnt.

    I think Brewmasters need a 20% reduction 1 minute cooldown like every other tank has, then they would be fine.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Shuffle is hardly a cooldown, its preemptive mitigation.
    Elusive Brew is random and not a guarentee. I prefer predictable damage intake over random spike damage. Its useful when it works, pointless when it doesnt.

    I think Brewmasters need a 20% reduction 1 minute cooldown like every other tank has, then they would be fine.
    I think any other tank in the game would call 20% parry and 20% less upfront damage a cooldown. Same with 30% dodge. Avoidance become more reliable the more of it you have. Statistics are your friends.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I think any other tank in the game would call 20% parry and 20% less upfront damage a cooldown. Same with 30% dodge. Avoidance become more reliable the more of it you have. Statistics are your friends.
    Shuffle is active mitigation. Its similar but different from Shield of the Righteous or Shield Block/Barrier, because it can and should have 100% uptime. None of the others do, so I wouldnt call it a cooldown.

  8. #28
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Shuffle is active mitigation. Its similar but different from Shield of the Righteous or Shield Block/Barrier, because it can and should have 100% uptime. None of the others do, so I wouldnt call it a cooldown.
    The point is that we have several small cooldowns in our active mitigation that are far superior to the other tanks active mitigation. Giving us another they would just have to nerf our shuffle/EB/guard to compensate or the other tanks would be crying foul.

  9. #29
    Pit Lord Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    The point is that we have several small cooldowns in our active mitigation that are far superior to the other tanks active mitigation. Giving us another they would just have to nerf our shuffle/EB/guard to compensate or the other tanks would be crying foul.
    It doesn't matter what shuffle gives you, it is supposed to have 100% uptime so therefore it is not a cooldown, it is static mitigation. A tank cooldown is an ability that can be used on demand X times a minute to deal with situational damage intake.

    Elusive Brew can be used as a micro avoidance cooldown (Sha's Thrash), a major avoidance cooldown (keeping it stacked to 15 until you need it) or used as a medium uptime avoidance source.

    Guard can be used as a short absorption cooldown (saving it for dragon breath) or as a regular absorption shield.


    Now, what Brewmaster is missing is a short cooldown which smooths damage taken over a period of time, guard can be used as part of that role, but only for one big hit or so, so if you're fighting your boss which has regular spikes which involve a series of attacks and you can't rely on avoidance (Sha when you have bad avoidance luck, Lei Shi tank swaps below 20%), the healers will find a brewmaster very spiky.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bkw View Post
    dunno about heroic progression but i thinks its really good on normal content and such. our lacks are armor and a antistun button, which is going to be fixed in 5.2. anyways i enjoy playing it, not a easy one but a rewarded and fun spec to play
    They're good on heroic progression. Some fights they suck on, others they shine on, pretty much like all tanks. I'd say BM is in a good spot, but the issue is that their skill cap is very high. Therefore most BM tanks you'll meet will, in fact, not get the most out of their mitigation.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Brewmasters, in heroic raids, take ridiculous spike damage and have lots of trouble handling high tank damage. They rely almost completely on healers, but on the other side they bring high dps (actually most tanks played well bring pretty good dps) and random raid protection (guard). That being said, they lack good CD's and have no raid CD's like other tanks bring (avert harm is no where near as good as demo banner). Our guild used a BrM for progression, but it's been significantly easier to heal him on his lesser geared paladin than his BrM. Also, paladins make H sha a joke, whereas BrM often just get one-shot lolol.

    Gara'jal, monks are good (warriors are best). But that's old content at this point, for my guild anyway. Warrior > monk > paladin > dk for gara'jal. Most other fights DK's are the best for tanking high damage...except when it gets to burst damage paladins are the best (shield of the righteous).

    Anyway, BrM can tank anything, and you won't technically be holding your raid back as a BrM, there are some fights where BrM are good and some where others are good. But warriors are pretty imba atm.
    It had to do with the person playing the Brewmaster. The skill cap is much higher on BrM versus a paladin.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Brewmasters, in heroic raids, take ridiculous spike damage and have lots of trouble handling high tank damage. They rely almost completely on healers, but on the other side they bring high dps (actually most tanks played well bring pretty good dps) and random raid protection (guard). That being said, they lack good CD's and have no raid CD's like other tanks bring (avert harm is no where near as good as demo banner). Our guild used a BrM for progression, but it's been significantly easier to heal him on his lesser geared paladin than his BrM. Also, paladins make H sha a joke, whereas BrM often just get one-shot lolol.

    Gara'jal, monks are good (warriors are best). But that's old content at this point, for my guild anyway. Warrior > monk > paladin > dk for gara'jal. Most other fights DK's are the best for tanking high damage...except when it gets to burst damage paladins are the best (shield of the righteous).

    Anyway, BrM can tank anything, and you won't technically be holding your raid back as a BrM, there are some fights where BrM are good and some where others are good. But warriors are pretty imba atm.
    It feels like you dont play brewmaster yourself. The only time i felt squishy was when mogushan vaults just had opened and i was tanking raid bosses with 463-ish ilvl with a class i barely knew how to play (i tanked elegon without guard glyph and diffuse magic).

  13. #33
    I think our EH CD is amazing. Big hits you can usually see coming, so hold off using energy, take the hit then heal up, PB and heal some more. I personally don't think a big cd is what we lack. As someone said our cd's we have can be used in many different ways to either mitigate consistent intakes of damage or used to soak bigger hits when used correctly.

  14. #34
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    It doesn't matter what shuffle gives you, it is supposed to have 100% uptime so therefore it is not a cooldown, it is static mitigation. A tank cooldown is an ability that can be used on demand X times a minute to deal with situational damage intake.

    Elusive Brew can be used as a micro avoidance cooldown (Sha's Thrash), a major avoidance cooldown (keeping it stacked to 15 until you need it) or used as a medium uptime avoidance source.

    Guard can be used as a short absorption cooldown (saving it for dragon breath) or as a regular absorption shield.


    Now, what Brewmaster is missing is a short cooldown which smooths damage taken over a period of time, guard can be used as part of that role, but only for one big hit or so, so if you're fighting your boss which has regular spikes which involve a series of attacks and you can't rely on avoidance (Sha when you have bad avoidance luck, Lei Shi tank swaps below 20%), the healers will find a brewmaster very spiky.
    We're not missing anything. Anything more they would give us would have to have a corresponding nerf b/c we are in a good place. Avoidance becomes better the more you have of it. A linear increase gives geometric results in less damage taken. We scale phenomenally well with gear, and if anything we are going to get a nerf sometime before this xpac is over or we will become unhittable by T16.

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord Viridiancity's Avatar
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    If you're playing for fun, treat yourself to a Brewmaster tank.

    On top of incredible tank DPS, they have absurd mobility, a fun and fluid rotation, decent utility (they're no Paladins, mind you!) and an all-around impressive toolkit.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    We scale phenomenally well with gear, and if anything we are going to get a nerf sometime before this xpac is over or we will become unhittable by T16.
    Why so? Unless we started putting reforging/gemming into dodge and parry, we'll always have ~28% parry and I don't believe we'll ever have more than 60% dodge. (Shouldn't Diminishing Returns start kicking in if it goes that far apart, anyway?) Otherwise our Guard will always have a 30s cooldown and magic damage is never going to get any less severe as long as we can't stagger it.
    Currently trying to experiences all classes at 100. Count so far: 3.

  17. #37
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Why so? Unless we started putting reforging/gemming into dodge and parry, we'll always have ~28% parry and I don't believe we'll ever have more than 60% dodge. (Shouldn't Diminishing Returns start kicking in if it goes that far apart, anyway?) Otherwise our Guard will always have a 30s cooldown and magic damage is never going to get any less severe as long as we can't stagger it.
    Agility my friend, agility. The dodge you gain from agility does not have diminishing returns. You can already get up to about 80% paper doll avoidance in current BiS gear while Elusive Brew is up. Throw an on-use avoidance trinket and laugh for 10-15 seconds at bosses pathetic attempts to hit you. More ilvls mean more agility which pushes that up still higher. Yes you can't get more parry from shuffle, but you will be getting more crit, which means higher EB uptime, and more mastery even if you reforge out of it, which means smoother damage when we do actually get hit.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Agility my friend, agility. The dodge you gain from agility does not have diminishing returns. You can already get up to about 80% paper doll avoidance in current BiS gear while Elusive Brew is up.
    Hold up. What? In ilvl485 gear I peak just under 47% dodge and that's during agility procs from both Xuen Relic and (LFR) Bottle. Screenshots and math or I'm going to stay in the dark here.* (Also, I didn't mean just our base getting DR, I meant DR while EB's buff is on, if that's not exempt.)

    * I forgot to add Parry and Dodge together.
    Currently trying to experiences all classes at 100. Count so far: 3.

  19. #39
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Hold up. What? In ilvl485 gear I peak just under 47% dodge and that's during agility procs from both Xuen Relic and (LFR) Bottle. Screenshots and math or I'm going to stay in the dark here.* (Also, I didn't mean just our base getting DR, I meant DR while EB's buff is on, if that's not exempt.)

    * I forgot to add Parry and Dodge together.
    EB is not affected by diminishing returns either. At least in the sense you're thinking. There is a point at which we have so much crit that the chances to cap before the 9 seconds is up becomes too large to ignore, but I don't believe that is realistically attainable.

    So 50%(55% with 2-set) avoidance through Shuffle and EB isn't going to increase. You'll have higher EB uptime though. Dodge from agil is going to keep going up linearly though.

  20. #40
    The Patient Valkari's Avatar
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    It certainly takes more effort to be good with that some of the other tanking specs, but once you get the hang of it, it's awesome.

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