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  1. #41
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    I did Wind Lord today, tanking the adds.
    I was top Dps, top healing and took less damage than the guy tanking the boss.

    I think Brewmasters are okay

    True they require a little more... micromanagement than some other tank specs, but I'd say if you're willing to get some addons, put in a bit of time to REALLY learn your spec they are more than viable tanks, they're also crazy fun to play .
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by HawaiianBrian View Post
    It feels like you dont play brewmaster yourself. The only time i felt squishy was when mogushan vaults just had opened and i was tanking raid bosses with 463-ish ilvl with a class i barely knew how to play (i tanked elegon without guard glyph and diffuse magic).
    It doesn't matter what people say about whether or not they feel squishy, BrM tanks can frequently be destroyed (talking .7s tank deaths) on heroic content. All tanks can, but BrM have this happen significantly more often than any other tank, that's what RNG mitigation does. And it also doesn't matter if I play a BrM, I play in a high caliber guild which generally used a BrM as one of our tanks during progression this tier, and I am a healer. So I know first hand what their damage patterns feel like, even if I'm not the one tank healing.
    Also, I'm pretty sure our BrM is a very good player, the problem has nothing to do with who's behind the character and much more to do with the class itself. They lack the tools which other tanks have to handle spike damage consistently.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Fix'd

    Shuffle, Elusive Brew, and Guard are basically extra cds we just treat them as givens.
    Shuffle isnt a cooldown.
    Our very mitigation is balanced around maintaining it-Just as a warrior aims for maximizing shield block uptime. It's partially why we have less armor, for instance.

    Elusive Brew has an extremely high uptime. Especially with some luck with crits. Again, it is part of the active mitigation concept.
    Guard falls between that place between active mitigation, and an actual cooldown. You can use it to simplify certain mechanics, such as thrash on Sha of Fear.
    But it is still a core part of our "tank rotation".


    Honestly if you don't have shuffle constantly rolling you are doing something extremely wrong.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    It doesn't matter what people say about whether or not they feel squishy, BrM tanks can frequently be destroyed (talking .7s tank deaths) on heroic content. All tanks can, but BrM have this happen significantly more often than any other tank, that's what RNG mitigation does. And it also doesn't matter if I play a BrM, I play in a high caliber guild which generally used a BrM as one of our tanks during progression this tier, and I am a healer. So I know first hand what their damage patterns feel like, even if I'm not the one tank healing.
    Also, I'm pretty sure our BrM is a very good player, the problem has nothing to do with who's behind the character and much more to do with the class itself. They lack the tools which other tanks have to handle spike damage consistently.
    I would love a link to the armory of this player. If he is playing correctly and gearing correctly he should rarely see the spike damage you are talking about.

    My spike damage is about the same as my Warrior counter part.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...n/Rex/advanced (assuming this is your brewmaster?)

    Either way from my personal experience as the tank I don't see it. My healers had a problem when I was at lower gear levels, but that is about it.

    I honestly don't know why he is going for 15% expertise. It isn't worth it compared to 13.33 energy and using power strikes to manage damage. If he is going to use ascension he should be at higher Haste to make it better than powerstrikes. He is gimping himself on Chi generation.
    Last edited by Wreckage827; 2012-12-31 at 01:28 AM.

  5. #45
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    I honestly don't know why he is going for 15% expertise. It isn't worth it compared to 13.33 energy and using power strikes to manage damage. If he is going to use ascension he should be at higher Haste to make it better than powerstrikes. He is gimping himself on Chi generation.
    Asc isn't better than PS for chi until 9k+ haste, and at that point you have much more chi than you need. You don't take Asc for chi gain, you take it for QoL. It's worse in every quantitative way. except for sub 20-sec windows.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 08:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    Shuffle isnt a cooldown.
    Our very mitigation is balanced around maintaining it-Just as a warrior aims for maximizing shield block uptime. It's partially why we have less armor, for instance.

    Elusive Brew has an extremely high uptime. Especially with some luck with crits. Again, it is part of the active mitigation concept.
    Guard falls between that place between active mitigation, and an actual cooldown. You can use it to simplify certain mechanics, such as thrash on Sha of Fear.
    But it is still a core part of our "tank rotation".


    Honestly if you don't have shuffle constantly rolling you are doing something extremely wrong.
    Can we replace the word 'cooldown' with 'ability to reduce incoming damage.'? B/c I think this is what is hanging a lot of you up. We have far more control of our damage intake than any other tank b/c we have several abilities that are just taken as givens.

    Remember statistics are your friends. Avoidance gets better the more of it you have. Just for example going from 50% avoidance to 60% avoidance reduces the chance of you taking consecutive hits by 9% total, but 36% relative.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-31 at 01:53 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    It doesn't matter what people say about whether or not they feel squishy, BrM tanks can frequently be destroyed (talking .7s tank deaths) on heroic content. All tanks can, but BrM have this happen significantly more often than any other tank, that's what RNG mitigation does. And it also doesn't matter if I play a BrM, I play in a high caliber guild which generally used a BrM as one of our tanks during progression this tier, and I am a healer. So I know first hand what their damage patterns feel like, even if I'm not the one tank healing.
    Also, I'm pretty sure our BrM is a very good player, the problem has nothing to do with who's behind the character and much more to do with the class itself. They lack the tools which other tanks have to handle spike damage consistently.
    Sorry to say it but then your tank is pretty bad or worse than the other tanks at least. Looking at the armory link above (if it's correct?) just confirms what I thought.

    OnT: Brewmaster were in beginning of t14 not very hot because of the low haste resulting in very slow energy regen but now with the gear that you can get they're definitely one of the best tanks if not the best with paladins just behind or equally good.

    imo.
    Monk tank in <Liquicity>, a Swedish 10m guild on Neptulon-EU 16/16 HC

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Asc isn't better than PS for chi until 9k+ haste, and at that point you have much more chi than you need. You don't take Asc for chi gain, you take it for QoL. It's worse in every quantitative way. except for sub 20-sec windows.
    Did I say you picked up Ascension for Chi gain?

    Look at the armory I linked. He is in almost all best in slot, using Ascension, and reforging for Expertise.
    If he was properly reforging for Haste then he would be sitting at near 7k Haste Rating without ascension according to wowreforge.

    Please don't take what I said out of context.
    Last edited by Wreckage827; 2012-12-31 at 02:23 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    I did Wind Lord today, tanking the adds.
    I was top Dps, top healing and took less damage than the guy tanking the boss.

    I think Brewmasters are okay
    Welcome to the world of "I spent a huge chunk of a fight at max Vengeance spamming high damage AoE / Cleave attacks on a butload of targets.".

    Same thing happens when I tank that fight in LFR on my druid. I usually end up with an insane amount of damage done compared to the rest of the raid simply by virtue of keeping a maxed Vengeance Thrash / Lascerate rolling on as many targets as I can tab through while I mash Swipe and Mangle like a madman.

    If I could heal in bear form, I could probably out heal healers too with that much vengeance pumpin me up like the hulk.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Can we replace the word 'cooldown' with 'ability to reduce incoming damage.'? B/c I think this is what is hanging a lot of you up. We have far more control of our damage intake than any other tank b/c we have several abilities that are just taken as givens.

    Remember statistics are your friends. Avoidance gets better the more of it you have. Just for example going from 50% avoidance to 60% avoidance reduces the chance of you taking consecutive hits by 9% total, but 36% relative.
    A paladin chaining cooldowns can go for like 70-80 seconds with some form of reduction up. Monk cant even come close to that. Face it, monks dont have the cooldown reliability to reduce spike damage, and spike damage is what kills tanks.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    A paladin chaining cooldowns can go for like 70-80 seconds with some form of reduction up. Monk cant even come close to that. Face it, monks dont have the cooldown reliability to reduce spike damage, and spike damage is what kills tanks.
    So on Blade Lord Ta'yak, the Overwhelming Assault... When the second strike hits and my HP bar barely moves, is that not dealing with spike damage properly?

    Or how about on Sha of Fear, during the Thrash, when I avoid 2 out of 3 of the strikes fairly reliably and sometimes avoid all 3; isn't that managing spike damage well?

  11. #51
    I think you need to differentiate between expected spike damage and unexpected spike damage.

    Where expected spike damage would be a boss mechanic where you have time to time your abilities to mitigate its damage, an unexpected spike damage is an event where your rng was unusually bad.

    I believe the intent of most posters are talking about the unexpected spike damage which to which BrM is worse equipped to deal with in comparison. We only really have 1 CD which is fortify brew to deal with this. Like was said earlier, Shuffle is expected to be maintained, Guard is in the rotation so it's not reactional unless it's saved for an expected spike damage mechanic, and dampen harm/magic are not reactive either and also saved for expected spike damage.
    Last edited by Dak79; 2012-12-31 at 09:22 AM.

  12. #52
    Epic! Demetrion's Avatar
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    I'm not expert in monks, but our healers cry every time he wants to MT something or when I'm not able to come (paladin) and tank. We had issues on WoE and Empress since his spike damage taken (as someone mentioned above) was much bigger than mine.

    He's a very good player, he raided with me since WotLK and we downed all heroic modes (from WotLK till today) with him being one of the strongest links.

  13. #53
    The issue there then is that those Monks have lower HP pools than other tanks. Technically speaking, we take lower damage overall than any other tank. However, our vastly inferior HP pools make that lower damage look worse than when other tanks take higher damage, but have the HP pool to manage it. A 100k hit on a 400k HP tank looks worse than a 125k hit on a 600k HP tank, for example, even though the 400k HP tank took less damage.

    It's fairly simple to combat this though, with the way gearing is currently: use stam flask/food, switch to 2x stamina trinkets. Done. Maybe switch out a few more items as well (like I have a separate helm with the stam/armor meta, another pair of T14 gloves with the JCing stamina gem, that sort of thing), but overall not much needs to be changed.

    This will essentially mean that the monk will take more damage overall, but will give the healers much more time to react to that damage.

  14. #54
    Epic! Demetrion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    The issue there then is that those Monks have lower HP pools than other tanks. Technically speaking, we take lower damage overall than any other tank. However, our vastly inferior HP pools make that lower damage look worse than when other tanks take higher damage, but have the HP pool to manage it. A 100k hit on a 400k HP tank looks worse than a 125k hit on a 600k HP tank, for example, even though the 400k HP tank took less damage.

    It's fairly simple to combat this though, with the way gearing is currently: use stam flask/food, switch to 2x stamina trinkets. Done. Maybe switch out a few more items as well (like I have a separate helm with the stam/armor meta, another pair of T14 gloves with the JCing stamina gem, that sort of thing), but overall not much needs to be changed.

    This will essentially mean that the monk will take more damage overall, but will give the healers much more time to react to that damage.
    That's the thing which happened to us. He didn't gave them that time.

    We first encountered this on WoE normal mode. His gear was fairly better than mine (RNG favored him much more than me, difference was 10 ilvls) and he kept dying to melee hits in between Devastating Combos. They didn't have any issues healing me but they struggled with him (we had 3-4 wipes him dying to melee attacks).

    EDIT: Not to mention the difference in healing which sometimes goes to 20K HPS.
    Last edited by Demetrion; 2012-12-31 at 10:41 AM.

  15. #55
    Yep, that fight was a struggle for me too until I switched to a higher stam/mastery gearset. There's a few fights which favour the higher stam/mastery set, especially when undergeared. WotE, Blade Lord Ta'yak, heroic Stone Guard to name a few.

    Most of the time we won't need this, but sometimes we do. Is good to have a second set of gear (or at least 2 stam trinkets and stam flask/food) to address these moments.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrion View Post
    His gear was fairly better than mine (RNG favored him much more than me, difference was 10 ilvls) and he kept dying to melee hits in between Devastating Combos. They didn't have any issues healing me but they struggled with him (we had 3-4 wipes him dying to melee attacks).
    This is play skill, not gear. Even if you have better gear than someone, doesn't mean that you're better.



  17. #57
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turskanaattori View Post
    They suck.
    I see your subjective opinion, and raise you one of my own!

    They're fun, take a bit of getting used to but awesome if played right.

  18. #58
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    Did I say you picked up Ascension for Chi gain?

    Look at the armory I linked. He is in almost all best in slot, using Ascension, and reforging for Expertise.
    If he was properly reforging for Haste then he would be sitting at near 7k Haste Rating without ascension according to wowreforge.

    Please don't take what I said out of context.
    You said
    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    If he is going to use ascension he should be at higher Haste to make it better than powerstrikes. He is gimping himself on Chi generation.
    To which I replied that Asc is never going to be better than PS until 9k haste, which you wouldn't want anyways.

    The 13.33 with PS is also basically a made up number. There is no chi cap, just the point at which chi becomes less useful, which varies per person and per boss.

    Exp cap is valid. The differences in exp cap vs soft cap and 2550 haste are quite negligible.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Larrabee View Post
    Sorry to say it but then your tank is pretty bad or worse than the other tanks at least. Looking at the armory link above (if it's correct?) just confirms what I thought.
    I actually have a friend in his guild, and from what I've heard... his healers were complaining about his damage intake. Looking around at other similarly geared tanks, yourself included, it's probably a skill issue. While he is ranked as one of the top brewmaster tanks for damage, if he's taking more damage overall compared to what other similar tanks are taking he's doing it wrong.

    They primarily use Rex for brewmaster, but sometimes use SnarfySnarf as one. He's normally dps though. Rex also switches to his Paladin sometimes, Rexea.

    edit: Looks like Rex has never had a Heroic Sha of Fear kill. Probably due to boss mechanics gibbing the tank. He has had a few H:SoF kills on his paladin though, which makes sense.
    Last edited by Promdates; 2012-12-31 at 06:55 PM.



  20. #60
    I don't know why people have such negativity towards BrM tanking, It's the greatest thing since sliced bread if you ask me! Not only do we do more damage than the other tanks both single and aoe, our raid healing from the ox statue is on par with a mediocre healer. Gara'Jal? The voodoo targets take almost no damage. Mel'jarak? Topping the dps charts at 200k+. Tsulong? The breath doesn't even touch us with glyphed guard. Sha of Anger's panda adds? Zuen will tank them. Putting other tanks to shame one kill at a time.

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