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  1. #1

    MW - Is it possible good raid performance without fistweaving?

    Hi, i saw in another post affinity/affinichi telling about some encounters without fistweaving and he got great results.
    I dont like to stay in melee range, i prefer the range heal style.
    So I would like some opinios about heal as a ranged, and what things are important in this case.

  2. #2
    I almost never go to melee, and i'm still the best healer of my guild
    You absolutely don't have to melee to heal as a monk

  3. #3
    It's not necessary in every encounter, but if you never fistweave, you don't use the full potential of your class, if you're fine with that, go for it.

  4. #4
    You should almost always basically be sitting in melee range, even if you aren't fistweaving. Why?

    1) You won't get hit by ranged mechanics (Wind bomb, Tornados, etc, etc)
    2) You have easy access to guaranteed chi on the GCD via Jab.

    You don't HAVE to fistweave or even jab for chi if you really don't want to, but NOT being in melee removes a lot of flexibility with your playstyle, burst capabilities, etc for no reason or gain at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldri View Post
    I almost never go to melee, and i'm still the best healer of my guild
    You absolutely don't have to melee to heal as a monk
    Try not to fall into the trap of assuming because you are outhealing your other players that you are maximizing your play, that isn't always the case

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Xio View Post
    I dont like to stay in melee range, i prefer the range heal style.
    This always kills me. Monks were designed to be a melee~ish healer class. If that isn't your heal style then why not play a class that is a better fit? Playing monk exclusively in ranged makes about as much sense as a dot class only casting instant damage spells because they don't like keeping track of dots.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefrog View Post
    This always kills me. Monks were designed to be a melee~ish healer class. If that isn't your heal style then why not play a class that is a better fit? Playing monk exclusively in ranged makes about as much sense as a dot class only casting instant damage spells because they don't like keeping track of dots.
    It's not as extreme as this, mistweaver was designed to be playable at ranged as well - it just so happens jab is a fucking broken ability.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    It's not as extreme as this, mistweaver was designed to be playable at ranged as well - it just so happens jab is a fucking broken ability.
    Currently, not exclusively. But I do see how the comparison is a little exaggerated lol. Maybe something a little closer is a Pally not really keeping track of his Holy Power. Point being, there is no shame in realizing that even though the armor looks awesome and the animation look cool, it just may not be the playstyle for you. And by forcing a different playstyle on the class, you aren't using it optimally.

  8. #8
    Fistweaving
    The Good: Guaranteed Chi every Jab
    The Bad: Costs more mana than Soothing Wave

    Ranged Healing:
    The Good: More mana efficient, more controlled healing
    The Bad: Gaining chi is rng dependent with Soothing Mist unless you cast surging mist while channeling but costing more mana

    A good mix of both is your best bet.
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -Hunter S. Thompson

  9. #9
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    Fistweaving
    The Good: Guaranteed Chi every Jab
    The Bad: Costs more mana than Soothing Wave

    Ranged Healing:
    The Good: More mana efficient, more controlled healing
    The Bad: Gaining chi is rng dependent with Soothing Mist unless you cast surging mist while channeling but costing more mana

    A good mix of both is your best bet.

    You can cast Soothing Mist and gain the benefits of 'ranged healing' when in melee, however you cannot benefit from Jab at range. Unless there are certain requirements or situations that require you to be at range, then it's usually better to always be in melee.

  10. #10
    Okay, this is like the third thread about this exact topic in as many days. I've given the standard "yeah but it won't be as effective" diatribe before, but I'm over that.

    If you don't want to be in melee, DO NOT PLAY A MONK. There are 4 other healing classes to play if you want to heal, and it's kind of like playing a Shaman but not liking totems or playing a Druid and not wanting to HoT people. Seriously, play a different class if using one of the class's core mechanics is unappealing to you.

  11. #11
    Thank you for the feedbacks. I have another question. I saw a lot of being in melee about generate chi faster, but with the upcoming changes at 5.2 patch, chi generation will be a priority? We just can spend chi with uplift and enveloping mist, so stay in the range will be not so mandatory?
    Blizzard not develop monks only to stay in melee I think, because if impossible to do it in PvP for example, and as Dumbfoundead said mistweaver was designed to be playable at ranged as wel.
    Patch 5.2 can bring more surprises as well. Being in melee would be a option not mandatory... I can used to do it, but as I said, I prefer stay in ranged.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Xio View Post
    I can used to do it, but as I said, I prefer stay in ranged.
    Roll a druid, replace ReM with Wild Growth, Uplift with Swiftmend, Eminence with Rejuv, Revival with Tranq, roll your Lifebloom and you're golden.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Okay, this is like the third thread about this exact topic in as many days. I've given the standard "yeah but it won't be as effective" diatribe before, but I'm over that.

    If you don't want to be in melee, DO NOT PLAY A MONK. There are 4 other healing classes to play if you want to heal, and it's kind of like playing a Shaman but not liking totems or playing a Druid and not wanting to HoT people. Seriously, play a different class if using one of the class's core mechanics is unappealing to you.
    Who are you to decide what someone does or does not do?
    FYI i play my monk both at Ranged and in Melee. A majority of fights I play at ranged. The only time I melee is if it's safe to be meleeing or my raid needs more dps. As well as special cases like Elagon as well.

    You're looking at the concept of monks all wrong it you think that you HAVE to be in melee. I want to see you only Fistweave heal in pvp....



    To answer the OP: Play how you want to play. Fist Weave if you enjoy it. Ranged heal if you like that. You can kill every boss in this game with either. However make sure your other healers know what type of healing they will be getting.

  14. #14
    It's suboptimal and provides you with less flexibility to play a monk healer purely at ranged in PvE. Playing at ranged is certainly viable, but it's not going to allow you to get 100% out of your character, and you have to be willing to accept that you will always be performing under your maximum theoretical yield.

    If you want to play fully at ranged, heal, and achieve 100% of your characters possible output, you cannot play a monk.

    This doesn't mean you can't play a monk at ranged and clear normal modes, or even Heroic modes. It just means that you will never be playing to your character's full potential and may need to lean more on your guildies or gear at times.
    Last edited by Daetur; 2012-12-30 at 01:37 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Who are you to decide what someone does or does not do?
    FYI i play my monk both at Ranged and in Melee. A majority of fights I play at ranged. The only time I melee is if it's safe to be meleeing or my raid needs more dps. As well as special cases like Elagon as well.

    You're looking at the concept of monks all wrong it you think that you HAVE to be in melee. I want to see you only Fistweave heal in pvp....



    To answer the OP: Play how you want to play. Fist Weave if you enjoy it. Ranged heal if you like that. You can kill every boss in this game with either. However make sure your other healers know what type of healing they will be getting.
    Meanwhile, when Angrie does hc raids: Everybody has died


    Edit: Hi Affiniti, I love you!
    Last edited by Saozin; 2012-12-30 at 01:38 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    Who are you to decide what someone does or does not do?
    FYI i play my monk both at Ranged and in Melee. A majority of fights I play at ranged. The only time I melee is if it's safe to be meleeing or my raid needs more dps. As well as special cases like Elagon as well.

    You're looking at the concept of monks all wrong it you think that you HAVE to be in melee. I want to see you only Fistweave heal in pvp....



    To answer the OP: Play how you want to play. Fist Weave if you enjoy it. Ranged heal if you like that. You can kill every boss in this game with either. However make sure your other healers know what type of healing they will be getting.
    This thread is about PvE, PvP is pretty inconsequential in regards to coming towards a conclusion for this matter. Also, it's always more safe to be meleeing - the only encounter it's more dangerous to melee on this tier is the Stone Guard and that was only really the first week of heroics being available.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Redfern View Post
    You can cast Soothing Mist and gain the benefits of 'ranged healing' when in melee, however you cannot benefit from Jab at range. Unless there are certain requirements or situations that require you to be at range, then it's usually better to always be in melee.
    When I say ranged healing, I mean choosing soothing mist or jab depending on the situation. Im in melee majority of the time, but when you want more controlled target healing (ex exhale), soothing mist wins because you can heal that target much faster. When no one really needs quick heals, then I stick to fistweaving w/ raid healing

    And I agree with everyone else that if you hate being in melee to fistweave, its a waste to play a mistweaver as your only benefiting half of its potential. It's like playing a warlock but not using any DoTs because you arent a fan of DoTs.
    Last edited by bigfootbigd; 2012-12-30 at 02:47 AM.
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -Hunter S. Thompson

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    FYI i play my monk both at Ranged and in Melee. A majority of fights I play at ranged. The only time I melee is if it's safe to be meleeing or my raid needs more dps. As well as special cases like Elagon as well.

    You're looking at the concept of monks all wrong it you think that you HAVE to be in melee. I want to see you only Fistweave heal in pvp....



    To answer the OP: Play how you want to play. Fist Weave if you enjoy it. Ranged heal if you like that. You can kill every boss in this game with either. However make sure your other healers know what type of healing they will be getting.
    1) Regarding boss abilities: We count as melee - so it's mostly always safe to be meleeing.
    2) Elegon (sry... couldn't resist)
    3) As someone pointed out, this thread is about pve. Read the title.
    4) Ofcourse you can play how you want, but the OP is asking how to achieve a good performance.

    You can play...
    ... a disc priest without spirit shell ...
    ... a shaman without chain heal ...
    ... a hunter without kill shot ...
    ... a fire mage without combustion ...
    ... a resto druid without tree form ...

    ... but why would you?

    5) "You can kill every boss in this game with either." - I'm assuming we're talking normal modes. In this case it's probably correct, doesn't mean it's "the proper way" (more on this in the next paragraph).


    To further add on the whole discussion:
    There isn't a single "proper way" to heal. Monk healing means planing way ahead and predict / prepare for incoming damage. This means (for example) starting to blanket the raid with ReM (using TFT) ~20secs before the expected AoE damage, banking 4-5 Chi for 2-3 Uplift when the AoE happens. You simply can't reliably bank 4-5 Chi for those uplifts just by using ReM & Soothing Mist alone, you're likely to continue spending Chi in that 20secs window to top off people with Uplift / EnvM while still preparing for your expected raidwide aoe and still accumulating chi for the post-aoe uplifts.

    Finally, some numbers about Soothing Mist (which I believe would be your primary Chi generator for ranged healing?):
    A) Chi Reliability and Mana cost
    - 30% Chance to generate 1 Chi per Tick
    - 2831 Mana / Tick
    - This Means it takes on average 10 ticks to generate 3 Chi. This equals 28310 mana, 9-10 GCDs (time spent channeling) and still doesn't even guarantee the chi.
    - 3 Jabs cost 35100 Mana (or 27k in the case of bugged Jab, going to be fixed in 5.2), only 3 GCDs and guarantees 3 Chi

    B) Healing Done
    - In my 493 ilvl, Soothing Mist ticks for 9k'ish (self-buffed, meaning only 5% Stats) every ~0.85secs (9000 / 0.85 = ~10588 hps)
    - My auto-attacks hit for 17k every ~2.1secs (17000 / 2.1 = ~8100 hps), so renewing Serpent's Zeal once every 30secs let's my autoattacks only heal for ~20% less than a spell that costs mana, and also being a smart-heal at that!
    - I still have 29 free GCDs to do other stuff

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    You're looking at the concept of monks all wrong it you think that you HAVE to be in melee. I want to see you only Fistweave heal in pvp....
    Thread about healing in PVE, rebuttal is fistweaving in pvp is bad.

    If you want to participate in the thread fine, but please don't bring pvp into a pve discussion to try and validate your pve playstyle choices. They don't go hand in hand. We're also talking about maximizing what you are doing. Not "can I get away with as little effort as possible" play. If you are aiming to play a mistweaver to it's maximum capabilities, you will be in melee. period.


    PVE topic:

    To maximize gameplay, yes you should be in melee. It's just flat out better to at least be IN melee, not necessarily generating chi via jab (some fights SCK fills that void, but I stay in melee because I want access to jab if I need it).
    Last edited by Affiniti; 2012-12-30 at 03:18 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    FYI i play my monk both at Ranged and in Melee. A majority of fights I play at ranged. The only time I melee is if it's safe to be meleeing or my raid needs more dps. As well as special cases like Elagon as well.
    There is literally no benefit to standing at range, it is a fact that it will hinder you. Completely ignoring Mistweaver mechanics for a second, let's talk about exactly what being in melee range gives you:

    1) Not worrying about mechanics that affect ranged players. Wind Step, Tempest Slash, Corrosive Resin, Amber Scalpel, Arcane Resonance, and many many more. They will not target you, and melee will not have to move because someone else was standing there. This is one of the biggest reasons why raids don't compose of 17 ranged DPS, less ranged = more room for the ranged that are there.

    2) Always in range of everyone all the time. Quite simple here, on any largely spread out fight, everyone will always be in range of the boss, period. Standing in melee means that no one will be out of range ever.

    3) Much, MUCH less movement. No stacking/spreading, no moving from Wind Bombs and mechanics like it, you get to stand there and do what you do.

    Every healer would give their right arm to have the ability to stand in melee with no consequences, it makes life so much easier. Mistweavers have it doubly so because SCK, Chi Burst, Jab, Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick, and Chi Torpedo all are either unusable or much less effective if not in melee. If you want to throw out half of your kit and ignore obvious advantages because of some irrational dislike for standing next to the boss, go ahead, but please don't take part in discussions on forums suggesting that Druids shouldn't have to use hots if they don't feel like it or that throwing down Banners are only for Warriors that are into that kind of thing. There's enough misinformation rampant on this forum without LFR heroes encouraging people to ditch core mechanics of their class.

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