Page 26 of 27 FirstFirst ...
16
24
25
26
27
LastLast
  1. #501
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    11,145
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerofpope View Post
    I think the game was better when you actually had to CC adds in 5 mans and raids. Anyone remember when Heroic Magisters' Terrace was released?

    You couldn't just take any specific spec or class in their. Shadow Priests constantly had to MC adds. Heh, those were the days.
    They went back to that model in 4.0 and 4.1. The subscription count got absolutely hammered in that time-period. 4.3 with it's easier dungeons stemmed the drop in subscribers and actually saw an increase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  2. #502
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    Yes, the deadwood would leave, proper gamers would return and the game would grow again.
    Yes, that's why Rift's subs are growing exponentially... oh wait, no, they are shit.
    You can't have a non-niche MMO based on a huge level of difficulty these days, it is just not possible because the player base is no longer the same.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  3. #503
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Anti-Frost Mage Camp.
    Posts
    16,967
    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    Yes, the deadwood would leave, proper gamers would return and the game would grow again.
    The only 'deadwood' are the special snowflakes and elitists that can't accept a more democratized World of Warcraft.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The only 'deadwood' are the special snowflakes and elitists that can't accept a more democratized World of Warcraft.
    ^ This

    Also, The game was better when people didn't bitch all the god damn time. Don't like it? Stop paying Blizzard to play a game you hate...Oh wait you won't.

  5. #505
    Brewmaster Orangetai420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Ghostcrawler has completely lost touch on the playerbase, and I'm sick and tired of him telling me what's fun.

    Ask Mages if we like our class. 99 out of 100 will say they're bored/disliking it.
    Well I'm the 1. The lv 90 talents are a bit lackluster but the class as a whole is loads of fun.

  6. #506
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Anti-Frost Mage Camp.
    Posts
    16,967
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangetai420 View Post
    Well I'm the 1. The lv 90 talents are a bit lackluster but the class as a whole is loads of fun.
    Thanks Lhivera. The rest of us will continue to campaign for a class overhaul.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  7. #507
    when tigole was around

  8. #508
    Brewmaster Orangetai420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Thanks Lhivera. The rest of us will continue to campaign for a class overhaul.
    I have no idea who Lhivera is.

    What needs to be overhauled? Rune of Power needs a bit of tweaking and with the change coming to Invocation I really don't see what the big deal is.

    EDIT: And I love Incanter's Ward. I just wish the shield lasted like 3-4 seconds longer.

    All they need to do is nerf 6 stack camping for arcane. The other specs play great and each has its theme. Mage is a far more fleshed out class than some others, like rogue.

    If any class needs a true overhaul, its rogues. And the 5.2 buffs are not overhauls, the class needs some love, its been more or less the same since launch. (The only major class rework I can think of is having nrg recover gradually instead of in chunks of 20.)
    Last edited by Orangetai420; 2013-01-02 at 07:57 PM.

  9. #509
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Anti-Frost Mage Camp.
    Posts
    16,967
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangetai420 View Post
    I have no idea who Lhivera is.

    What needs to be overhauled? Rune of Power needs a bit of tweaking and with the change coming to Invocation I really don't see what the big deal is.

    All they need to do is nerf 6 stack camping for arcane. The other specs play great and each has its theme. Mage is a far more fleshed out class than some others, like rogue.

    If any class needs a true overhaul, its rogues. And the 5.2 buffs are not overhauls, the class needs some love, its been more or less the same since launch. (The only major class rework I can think of is having nrg recover gradually instead of in chunks of 20.)
    There is a ream of discourse as regards what needs to be fixed on the Mage forums, both on MMO-Champion and the official site.

    And no, you're wrong. Mages are, from a quality of life and mechanical standpoint, as bad as rogues. The difference is that our competitive DPS masks these issues.

    I pity you if your answer to this post is "if dps is fine, there is no problem".
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  10. #510
    Brewmaster Orangetai420's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    There is a ream of discourse as regards what needs to be fixed on the Mage forums, both on MMO-Champion and the official site.

    And no, you're wrong. Mages are, from a quality of life and mechanical standpoint, as bad as rogues. The difference is that our competitive DPS masks these issues.

    I pity you if your answer to this post is "if dps is fine, there is no problem".
    Uhh well no, I'm not wrong because this is opinion based.

    Whatever, carry on with your crusade.

  11. #511
    Brewmaster dryankem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    London, ON, Canada
    Posts
    1,309
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysara View Post
    ^ This

    Also, The game was better when people didn't bitch all the god damn time. Don't like it? Stop paying Blizzard to play a game you hate...Oh wait you won't.
    I don't get that either, it's your money if you don't like the game find something else. No one cares.

    Also I don't think there ever was a time when people didn't bitch, it's human nature and luckily it gets amplified by the internet.



    As for LFR, people get over yourselves. That's fine if you don't like it but it's here to stay and it's even good for the game.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    They went back to that model in 4.0 and 4.1. The subscription count got absolutely hammered in that time-period. 4.3 with it's easier dungeons stemmed the drop in subscribers and actually saw an increase.
    Yeah right, because that's the only thing that people play/do not play the game for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Yes, that's why Rift's subs are growing exponentially... oh wait, no, they are shit.
    You can't have a non-niche MMO based on a huge level of difficulty these days, it is just not possible because the player base is no longer the same.
    Rift is doing well last I checked. Just because it doesn't have a fuckton of subscribers doesn't mean it is shit.

    Hard, niche MMOs exist and have their own playbase. You're naive if you think that all MMO players have ties/belong to the WoW crowd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Then the [MMORPG] genre started attracting more players. These players wanted more of a "game" and less of a "world" [...]

  13. #513
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    How did cata prove anything about anything when it comes to 5 mans?
    Err... in case you missed the memo, with the introduction of hard 5 mans in early Cata, the subs took a heaaaavy hit. Especially with the famous "stop doing content if it's too hard for you" blue post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Even going straight into 5 mans in ass gear on week one of launch, healing on a holy paladin all the heroics were a joke, and only the oneshot abilities, initial ignorance of an instance, or unforgivable stupidity (it happens sometimes) ever made things difficult. Playing even remotely intelligently they were a joke. Even on a shaman healing (who were pathetically underpowered as a healer at launch and got *massive* buffs during/after the first tier) it was more than doable.
    In guild? Yeah, sure thing. In LFD (which is what most players do) it was a horrible wipefeast (with the palm probably going to the deadmines).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    All cata "proved" was that players who are conditioned to play poorly do poorly (what a shock) when they can't get away with doing so. TBC proved that, when you condition people to play well, making 5 man content hard is no problem at all.
    TBC proved that most players did very few heroics at the beginning and had to resort to idiotic mechanics like losing 10 games a week in arena to get a PVP weapon which was a mile better than those dropping in heroics despite being PVP. Or they literally BGd their way into honor gear and went to Kara with it (later in the expansion, not early on).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Speaking of "even in BC it was simpler to go directly to Kara", it was actually simpler to go directly to BT and hyjal! If we're getting carried, may as well get carried properly.
    I'm not aware that BT was released right off the bat in BC. Maybe I missed the memo on that one -_-

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    You sure seem to know a lot about how people play. People "simply don't bother" to do 5 mans if 5 mans are harder than other content, even though they did them constantly throughout all of TBC and early cata, when they were still relatively hard. Even if you could go "straight to kara after maybe doing heroic slave pens a couple of times", you could still only do kara once a week.
    More like "they bashed their head against heroics for all BC", yes. Not top-level (or even middle-level) raiders obviously, but people who just dinged and tried to get into their first (or 3rd, or tenth) heroic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    And it does not require some "custom group" that is "not something you build in LFD", as evidenced by every single 5 man group through all of TBC.
    Of course it does. People royally ignored all classes without CC, wanted more classes with CC, and so on so forth. I played holy pally but I think there are a lot of people who played classes like SP or Ele shaman on this thread who can testify of that discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Magister's Terrace was one of the hardest 5 man instances that have ever been in the game, and yet it was still possible to pug it with randoms from chat or the LFG tool; even if the arena event often lead to wipes even with a good group, but that's magister's terrace for 'ya I guess. Which people conspicuously constantly did every chance they had, despite the presence of kara, or other - supposedly easier - ways of gearing up.
    Magister's Terrace wasn't hard, because most players had at least some epic gear under the belt by that point (if only from JPs). If you had at least some T5, it was a joke. MT was hard in absolute terms, but in terms of difficulty vs obtainable gear, it was easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    "1 hour in /2" to get a group is extreme hyperbole unless you were a poorly geared DPS (if you were a well-geared DPS you were showered in invites), and even then that'd still be true today if not for cross-realm (and often still is; 30 min queues for dps much?)... so all you're saying, once compensating for your exaggerating, is that things'd be the same as they are today, but they'd require more player interaction and demand more player skill, and bring back the old TBC-style community, where people remembered the names of good players they met in 5 mans and friends listed them to do more groups with them, as opposed to the boring, anonymous interactions we get these days, where nobody knows anybody else is or has any reason to care in the first place.
    No, 1 hour is not a hyperbole. Back in BC on my server (EU-Darkmoon Faire), it sometimes took us that much to get 3 DPS (I was playing with a buddy who was a prot warrior, so tank+healer was covered). Sure, if you were on servers like Silvermoon, this may not have been a problem, but do not assume that it was like that elsewhere.

    Anonymity or not, LFD or not, on a personal level, I do not wish to go back to that, especially for rewards that were - again - lackluster compared to the entry-level raid.

    TLR -> In the current PVE model, it would be stupid to make mandatory 5 mans harder than the first level of raiding. And the first level of raiding being LFR, you have to have easy 5 mans. Which is exactly what happens. You want hard 5-mans? Challenge modes are for you.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 09:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfsage View Post
    Rift is doing well last I checked. Just because it doesn't have a fuckton of subscribers doesn't mean it is shit.

    Hard, niche MMOs exist and have their own playbase. You're naive if you think that all MMO players have ties/belong to the WoW crowd.
    Sure thing, but what the poster I quoted was saying is that you "just" have to kick all the bad players and the sub numbers would automagically go up. The fact that the whole MMO market is stagnating since 2009-ish, making such a manoeuvre by definition impossible is carefully avoided.

    That's the problem with all those "QQ MAKE THE GAME HARD LIEK BC PLXPLX" people - their knowledge of market and economy is very close to absolute zero.
    Last edited by Tomana; 2013-01-02 at 08:17 PM.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  14. #514
    When Ghostcrawler was busy killing Age of Empires.

  15. #515
    I love the 'I speak for everyone and if you don't agree you don't know what you're talking about' crusaders in this thread. It's as if made up statistics and berating opinions of others will actually get things done.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    The only 'deadwood' are the special snowflakes and elitists that can't accept a more democratized World of Warcraft.
    And thats why youve ending up with such a dull game where Blizzard have to keep putting in fluff to keep people playing. It is a world geared around stopping bad players giving up so they are given access to everything, and why it stopped growing in 2009. Why shouldnt better players stand out? No we must all be the same because the sub cost is the same. Its a broken and self defeating system that means that players get worse and one which Blizzard wish they could reverse as the easier it gets the faster the content get used up.
    Without competition there is no progression, without progression RPG's get dull and stale and why they have to keep putting bigger and bigger numbers on things to fool the idiots into thinking they are getting somewhere.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfsage View Post
    Yeah right, because that's the only thing that people play/do not play the game for.


    Maybe you weren't paying attention when Cata came out, but for a month straight the forums exploded with people quitting over the difficulty while people like me thought it was awesome to have to use CC again and we told them to get used to it and gear up. Then a month later Blizzard nerfed it all, because making things harder damaged subscription numbers. Ghostcrawler has since expressed his displeasure over that, because he wanted more challenging content and this was a rare instance of when the sub numbers over rode the design philosophy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 03:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    And thats why youve ending up with such a dull game where Blizzard have to keep putting in fluff to keep people playing. It is a world geared around stopping bad players giving up so they are given access to everything, and why it stopped growing in 2009. Why shouldnt better players stand out? No we must all be the same because the sub cost is the same. Its a broken and self defeating system that means that players get worse and one which Blizzard wish they could reverse as the easier it gets the faster the content get used up.
    Without competition there is no progression, without progression RPG's get dull and stale and why they have to keep putting bigger and bigger numbers on things to fool the idiots into thinking they are getting somewhere.
    Another person who makes the mistake of thinking something was better when it was really just new at the time. If you want difficulty in WOW, it's there.

    This isn't about difficulty. This is about people wanting barely anyone to have epics and only those people who organize large raids to have those rare epics.
    Last edited by Yig; 2013-01-02 at 09:50 PM.
    If you like my draw-rings. http://yig.deviantart.com/
    If you can't find them for some reason beyond that page. http://yig.deviantart.com/gallery/
    WOW screenshot and concept art gallery http://smg.photobucket.com/user/evilknick/library/WoW

  18. #518
    Dreadlord Nykolas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Birmingham UK
    Posts
    855
    [QUOTE=Destil;19618269]

    Look at Rift, which was the equivalent.

    300 thousand subscribers and that's it.[COLOR="red"]

    People still pull RIFT sub numbers out their ass i see?

  19. #519
    The Lightbringer
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Silvermoon City
    Posts
    3,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Nykolas View Post
    People still pull RIFT sub numbers out their ass i see?
    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

    Yes, this is an old version (which places rift at ~250K subs) but unless you have better statistics, those will have to do.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  20. #520
    Bloodsail Admiral Rivyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Hell's out house (Missouri)
    Posts
    1,040
    If you want to improve the community at this point you dont do it by pulling our LFR and LFG. Those are just tools to get gear and get into raids. What you do is create events that require groups that cant be accessed via que, that you have to form your self. Even add some form of incitive for running LFG in a single server group. You cant have a community if you dont encourage its interaction.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •