Jaina post Operation Shieldwall *Spoilers*

[Syio]

I find Jaina's reaction quite understandable. Let's see how many of us remain calm and collected after someone obliterates everyone and everything you've ever cared for.

And I really don't like that our characters have no choice in the matter of aiding the brick-for-brains excuse for a warchief in his wayward plans of worst ideas possible. I don't even LIKE kids and found Garrosh's 'execution' of Audin heinous. The boy was unarmed, you self-serving twat. Go back to that floating rock you spawned from and take your rage out on some clefthoofs instead.

[Dreknar20]

Except Arthas and Kel'thuzad acted on their own accord... .

Kelthuzad yes, Arthas no, up until he ran off to meet the Lich King

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 10:44 PM ----------

. I don't even LIKE kids and found Garrosh's 'execution' of Audin heinous. The boy was unarmed.

He was caring a hammer of harmony or whatever and he just destoyed a major weapon

[Florena]

I find Jaina's reaction quite understandable. Let's see how many of us remain calm and collected after someone obliterates everyone and everything you've ever cared for.

And I really don't like that our characters have no choice in the matter of aiding the brick-for-brains excuse for a warchief in his wayward plans of worst ideas possible. I don't even LIKE kids and found Garrosh's 'execution' of Audin heinous. The boy was unarmed, you self-serving twat. Go back to that floating rock you spawned from and take your rage out on some clefthoofs instead.

Well I think the thing with Garrosh at least is, if you defy him he'd just kill you, and you wouldn't be able to do the quests. At least you get to scheme against him though with Vol'jin.

As for Anduin, I don't see Garrosh killing him as all that bad. He's young but Anduin is NOT just a kid anymore. In his own way he's very dangerous, and he'd just foiled Garrosh's plan that had cost many lives for him to get that bell.

Now Garrosh has done many heinous things, but I don't count attacking Anduin as one of his war crimes.

[Chromu]

The orcs brutalized the humans in the first war. They harvested and destroyed everything.
The orcs brutalized the draeneis on Draenor (hello path of conquest).
The orcs made a demon pact WILLINGLY (x2)
The orcs destroyed Draenor.

This are Warcraft Facts.

Arthas and Kel Thuzad weren't Alliance members when they started to help spread the scourge. They were bound to the will of the Lich King - which, of course, was an orc (Nerzul).

Garithos, if you play Warcraft III, you will see he was under control of Detheroc. That is one of the reasons he was persecuting nonhumans, to weak the alliance forces. And even if he was a racist, you had to understand that humanity was at a grave peril when the scourge hitted.

Jaina didn't only help Thrall in fighting Archimonde (yes, SHE teleports the horde base camp away against archimonde), she also helped him to secure foot on Durotar be helping in the killing on her own Father - which was an horde racist. So, what would you do when someone who you HELPED A LOT, comes in and nukes your city without warning and without reason?

Don't come with crap about barrens, mostly of barrens casualities could be Grimtoten Taurens which weren't exactly horde friendly.

The Sunreavers are traitors of the Kirin Tor. They gave two nukes to a genocidal orc, which already had destroyed a neutral druid camp. They did it knowing that since the Lich King Dalaran was NEUTRAL. As traitors they all should have been executed, but only those who resisted arrest were killed - no alliance quest asks you to kill non aggro sunreavers.

What does the Blood Elves and the genocidal orc have in common: both deal with demons. Garrosh is fulfilling Saurfang prophecy: he is walking the path of his father Grom which will end up in drinking demon blood again (Just take a time and listen Saurfang - Garrosh talking in Borean Thundra).

Garrosh is an old Legion driven type of orc (just read his short story). He is not mad, he is just the personification of what the horde was before Thrall: a machine of destruction.

I doubt Jaina will play any role in Garrosh demise, as i doubt any Sha influence on it. Garrosh is using Mannoroth horns as armor, he is dealing with demons again in Ragefire Chasm and getting the aid of Arcane Blood Mages (that were until Sunwell Plateau, Fel energy addicts).

Garrosh demise will be sign of the Legion's return to Azeroth. And i believe Saurfang will be the one dealing with Garrosh.

I am astonished how people playing the horde can blame Jaina for what she is doing. The horde side has the most "commit sacrilege" (Burning the alonsus chapel, desecrate the Lightbringer shrine, help the Forsaken destroy southshore - crap, even DREK is against the path the horde is taking, attack the alliance from behind while they are fighting the scourge, and so goes on).

And if blizzard is willingly to return the Horde Pre Thrall era, well, the orcs are the villains then.

[Trassk]

The orcs brutalized the humans in the first war. They harvested and destroyed everything.

The humans killed as many orcs as orcs killed humans. Humans also captured many orcs and held them as slaves

The orcs brutalized the draeneis on Draenor (hello path of conquest).

The draenei came to draenor and brought the legion to the planet. If they didn't come to draenor the orcs would not have been made into tools for the legion.

The orcs made a demon pact WILLINGLY (x2)

First because of ignorance and the lies of a demon lord, the second because if they didn't do so, the night elves would have wiped them out. Nelves made the first blow against them, not the other way round

The orcs destroyed Draenor.

Maybe if the alliance hadn't be butt hurt and followed the orcs to draenor in the first place in there religious attempt to kill every orc they could, ner'zhul wouldn't have done what he did.

You are argue till your blue in the face but there is always two sides to warcrafts story, and each side will always only every try to focus on the virtues of there side and try to pretend there's is the only one that matters.

[Dreknar20]

Garithos, if you play Warcraft III, you will see he was under control of Detheroc. That is one of the reasons he was persecuting nonhumans, to weak the alliance forces. And even if he was a racist, you had to understand that humanity was at a grave peril when the scourge hitted.

Garithos was not being mind controlled during the Blood Elf Campaign

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 11:47 PM ----------

The draenei came to draenor and brought the legion to the planet. If they didn't come to draenor the orcs would not have been made into tools for the legion.
.

The Legion would have probably set eyes on the Orc homeworld eventually, the arrival of the Draenei probably sped up that process

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 11:50 PM ----------

You are argue till your blue in the face but there is always two sides to warcrafts story, and each side will always only every try to focus on the virtues of there side and try to pretend there's is the only one that matters.

Thats how conflict works when you have two rival factions

Both sides demonize the opposing side while glorifying their own side

[Aquamonkey]

Arthas and Kel Thuzad weren't Alliance members when they started to help spread the scourge. They were bound to the will of the Lich King - which, of course, was an orc (Nerzul).

Arthas was fully Alliance commanding Alliance soldiers when he murdered everyone in Stratholme.

Garithos, if you play Warcraft III, you will see he was under control of Detheroc. That is one of the reasons he was persecuting nonhumans, to weak the alliance forces. And even if he was a racist, you had to understand that humanity was at a grave peril when the scourge hitted.

Because none of the other races were in grave peril from the Scourge either. Also, RACISM.

Jaina didn't only help Thrall in fighting Archimonde (yes, SHE teleports the horde base camp away against archimonde), she also helped him to secure foot on Durotar be helping in the killing on her own Father - which was an horde racist. So, what would you do when someone who you HELPED A LOT, comes in and nukes your city without warning and without reason?

Yep, Thrall dropped the Mana Bomb...

The Sunreavers are traitors of the Kirin Tor. They gave two nukes to a genocidal orc, which already had destroyed a neutral druid camp. They did it knowing that since the Lich King Dalaran was NEUTRAL. As traitors they all should have been executed, but only those who resisted arrest were killed - no alliance quest asks you to kill non aggro sunreavers.

Dalaran was NOT neutral. They sent military reinforcements to an Alliance city. One of those Alliance quests orders you to kill a Blood Elf who is trying to gather his belongings and flee.

What does the Blood Elves and the genocidal orc have in common: both deal with demons. Garrosh is fulfilling Saurfang prophecy: he is walking the path of his father Grom which will end up in drinking demon blood again (Just take a time and listen Saurfang - Garrosh talking in Borean Thundra).

Humans deal with demons too.

I am astonished how people playing the horde can blame Jaina for what she is doing. The horde side has the most "commit sacrilege" (Burning the alonsus chapel, desecrate the Lightbringer shrine, help the Forsaken destroy southshore - crap, even DREK is against the path the horde is taking, attack the alliance from behind while they are fighting the scourge, and so goes on).

So that makes it okay for Jaina to launch a massive tsunami at Orgrimmar to kill innocent civilians? Or for Jaina to persecute innocent Sunreavers who had no involvement with Garrosh?

And if blizzard is willingly to return the Horde Pre Thrall era, well, the orcs are the villains then.

Except they aren't since every race in the Horde wants to kill Garrosh.

---------- Post added 2012-12-29 at 04:00 PM ----------

The Legion would have probably set eyes on the Orc homeworld eventually, the arrival of the Draenei probably sped up that process

Possible, yes. However, the Legion is attracted to arcane and fel magic. The Orcs were shamanistic and using nature magic. Eventually, the Legion might have shown up. But not after invading the more noticeable worlds.

[Florena]

The humans killed as many orcs as orcs killed humans. Humans also captured many orcs and held them as slaves

The draenei came to draenor and brought the legion to the planet. If they didn't come to draenor the orcs would not have been made into tools for the legion.

First because of ignorance and the lies of a demon lord, the second because if they didn't do so, the night elves would have wiped them out. Nelves made the first blow against them, not the other way round

Maybe if the alliance hadn't be butt hurt and followed the orcs to draenor in the first place in there religious attempt to kill every orc they could, ner'zhul wouldn't have done what he did.

You are argue till your blue in the face but there is always two sides to warcrafts story, and each side will always only every try to focus on the virtues of there side and try to pretend there's is the only one that matters.

1. The humans killed a lot of orcs and imprisoned the survivors after the war... BECAUES THE ORCS BURST THROUGH THE PORTAL IN A BLOODY ATTEMPT TO WIPE THEM OUT. You can't blame people for defending themselves and imprisoning a race of aliens that were intent on killing them to the last man, woman and child.

2. The draenei accidentally lead the Legion to Draenor, yes. But they were stranded there and would have left if they could. And they still did NOTHING to provoke the orcs onslaught against them.

3. Yes, you're right on this one. The orcs were deceived the first time and Grom was backed into a corner.

4. There is no indication that Nerzhul wouldn't have opened those portals if the Alliance hadn't followed them. Also let's not forget, the reason they opened those portals was to find NEW worlds to conquor after failing to take Azeroth. The Alliance expedition, minus Alleria who was out to spill orc blood, was not formed to wipe out orcs but to stop whatever evil Nerzhul was up to after stealing those magical artifacts. Yes the alliance has done bad but I hope this pots wasn't serious if you're trying to whitewash the orcs in WC 2. Not to mention Draenor was barely livable anyway even before it blew up due to demonic corruption from their warlocks, as shown in Rise of the Horde, which forced the orcs to look for another world to invade.

Post WC 3 you're right that both sides are gray, but in WC 2 the orcs, while under demon influence, were outright evil. There are plenty of valid things you can point at the Alliance for, but when it comes to WC 2 they were simply defending themselves from an unprovoked invasion.

[Blarglord69]

Well i can say she flipped pretty hard on her peace stance after the bell got jacked,but she does have a legit reason for being mad with Anduin being injured,as for sha controll , think jaina and and king v have to much will power to simply be controlled not to mention we knocked out most of the sha.

[Trassk]

This are Warcraft Facts.

No, these are how you interpret events, which makes it a half truth.

Arthas and Kel Thuzad weren't Alliance members when they started to help spread the scourge. They were bound to the will of the Lich King - which, of course, was an orc (Nerzul).

Wrong, Arthas was already caught in the grip of his single minded hunt for malganis, and he fell under the lich kings control. Arthas also slaughtered innocent men and women before he became the lich king, so making him worse for it. Kel Thuzad was insane before he even became a lich.

Garithos, if you play Warcraft III, you will see he was under control of Detheroc. That is one of the reasons he was persecuting nonhumans, to weak the alliance forces. And even if he was a racist, you had to understand that humanity was at a grave peril when the scourge hitted.

He wasn't under the control of Detheroc when he used the blood elves for fodder.

Jaina didn't only help Thrall in fighting Archimonde (yes, SHE teleports the horde base camp away against archimonde), she also helped him to secure foot on Durotar be helping in the killing on her own Father - which was an horde racist. So, what would you do when someone who you HELPED A LOT, comes in and nukes your city without warning and without reason?

Different leader, you know well what Garrosh is capable of now so there is no argument as to why he did it. Also its a far stretch to assume there alliance on kalimdor are blameless. YES, Camp Taurajo and the alliance campaign though the barrens came from theramore.

Don't come with crap about barrens, mostly of barrens casualities could be Grimtoten Taurens which weren't exactly horde friendly.

WRONG, bloody so wrong your laughable. Camp Taurajo was NOT a grimtotem camp, it was a tauren village with hunters and warriors who defended the barrens from quillboar, harpies and centaur, keeping mulgore safe.

The Sunreavers are traitors of the Kirin Tor. They gave two nukes to a genocidal orc, which already had destroyed a neutral druid camp. They did it knowing that since the Lich King Dalaran was NEUTRAL. As traitors they all should have been executed, but only those who resisted arrest were killed - no alliance quest asks you to kill non aggro sunreavers.

Rhonin was a traitor to his perceived neutrality. He came in to fight against the horde with dalaran mages representing his faction against the horde attack on the city. By your ridiculous logic would could say all of the kirin tor betrayed the trust of the horde because of what they did, but it wasn't like that because it was a few mages rhonin brought with him, not all of the kirin tor.
As for the sunreavers, same bloody deal, a few acted in Garrosh's command, stealing a weapon from darnassus, well every other member of the sunreavers were blameless to what was happening, and still Jaina holds all of them accountable.

What does the Blood Elves and the genocidal orc have in common: both deal with demons. Garrosh is fulfilling Saurfang prophecy: he is walking the path of his father Grom which will end up in drinking demon blood again (Just take a time and listen Saurfang - Garrosh talking in Borean Thundra).

Oh my god that is so funny. What do humans and forsaken have in common, they both deal with the undead. Remember Kel thuzard and Arthas?

Garrosh is an old Legion driven type of orc (just read his short story). He is not mad, he is just the personification of what the horde was before Thrall: a machine of destruction.

Garrosh, despite being the obvious bad guy here, has had no connection to the legion at all. He follows what he thinks he father did was rightous, kind of like EVERYTHING the alliance does against the horde, they to believe its ok to kill and imprison orcs because of events of the past, well he how that is any different?

I doubt Jaina will play any role in Garrosh demise, as i doubt any Sha influence on it. Garrosh is using Mannoroth horns as armor, he is dealing with demons again in Ragefire Chasm and getting the aid of Arcane Blood Mages (that were until Sunwell Plateau, Fel energy addicts).

He is not dealing with demons in RFC, he is using dark shamans such as we saw in cataclysm. Sounds like your trying to grab fish in a barrel now.

Garrosh demise will be sign of the Legion's return to Azeroth. And i believe Saurfang will be the one dealing with Garrosh.

Your opinion, and given what you just posted here it gives little credit to that opinion.

I am astonished how people playing the horde can blame Jaina for what she is doing. The horde side has the most "commit sacrilege" (Burning the alonsus chapel, desecrate the Lightbringer shrine, help the Forsaken destroy southshore - crap, even DREK is against the path the horde is taking, attack the alliance from behind while they are fighting the scourge, and so goes on).

Oh really? No, whats astonishing is how you fail to recognize the faults on both sides of the coin, thinking everything the alliance does is good and just and blameless and the horde is pure evil. The only fact is both sides are morally grey and you don't understand that.

And if blizzard is willingly to return the Horde Pre Thrall era, well, the orcs are the villains then.

What? Seriously, try reading the lore and get a fresh perspective of both sides of the story because making this misinformed options please.

[Kaleredar]

The humans killed as many orcs as orcs killed humans. Humans also captured many orcs and held them as slaves

Of course they killed a lot of orcs; the orcs were the ones attacking them. As for the internment/slavery, that's not great, but what did you want them to do to a demonically crazed band of savages? Have tea and biscuits with them?

The draenei came to draenor and brought the legion to the planet. If they didn't come to draenor the orcs would not have been made into tools for the legion.

How does that serve to justify the orcs almost killing all of them?

First because of ignorance and the lies of a demon lord, the second because if they didn't do so, the night elves would have wiped them out. Nelves made the first blow against them, not the other way round

The Orcs were still the invaders.

Maybe if the alliance hadn't be butt hurt and followed the orcs to draenor in the first place in there religious attempt to kill every orc they could, ner'zhul wouldn't have done what he did.

You don't leave your enemy to sit and regenerate, you track them down and ensure the threat is neutralized.

You are argue till your blue in the face but there is always two sides to warcrafts story, and each side will always only every try to focus on the virtues of there side and try to pretend there's is the only one that matters.

There isn't only one side of the story that matters, but as of late, it seems like the horde and associates are being a lot more "morally grey" than the alliance are.

[Dreknar20]

You don't leave your enemy to sit and regenerate, you track them down and ensure the threat is neutralized.

So then whats wrong with the Horde attacking the Alliance now?
After all the Alliance are the Horde's long time enemy and rival.

[Trassk]

There isn't only one side of the story that matters, but as of late, it seems like the horde and associates are being a lot more "morally grey" than the alliance are.

I would have agreed with that until 5.1 and the events of dalaran.

you know it also seems every time someone says the bad things happening to the other races of the horde, like the blood elves and what they are faced with, or the trolls or tauren, the response is almost always 'Well they shouldn't have left Garrosh tell them to do so, so its there fault'. Same bad logic can be aimed at those who followed Arthas to northrend. These are characters who are caught in only the perspective of there roles in the story, unlike us players who can see all sides of it.

[Dreknar20]

The Orcs were still the invaders.
.

Likewise
Humans invaded the Orc Homeworld, and even now invading the adopted Orcish homelands

[Trassk]

So then whats wrong with the Horde attacking the Alliance now?
After all the Alliance are the Horde's long time enemy and rival.

pretty much this. The alliance followed the orcs and wanted to destroy them, but for some reason when the shoes on the other foot its not ok for the horde to do the same now.

[Dreknar20]

I would have agreed with that until 5.1 and the events of dalaran.
.

what about the whole beginning Alliance/Horde quests in Jade Forest?

[Screwtape]

I usually try to avoid characterizations of who plays what faction, but when it comes to lore I really wonder. Anyway, here is my take on the progression of the sides.

-Vanilla: Both sides are painted as having dark and light aspects, but both have noble sides.
-Since the Horde is no longer as villifiable, many perceive it as the more bad ass faction. Contributing to this is the fact that many of the major Alliance lore leaders are either dead or AWOL.
-Alliance players clamor for an edgier look. Enter King Dildo Wrynn.
-Alliance players now feel that they are getting the raw end of the deal because they have to listen to King Dildo while the Horde is led by Orc Jesus.
-Blizzard struggles to come up with a new Horde leader that makes King Dildo seem moderate in comparison. Enter Garrosh. After a while, King Dildo is mellowed out a bit.
-Garrosh does shenanigans.
-Alliance players rejoice that once again they are the unequivocal good guys and completely justified in exterminating the Horde scum.

I tell you I'll be rather disappointed if there isn't a major plot twist that we haven't seen yet. Not that I have a problem with acrimony, but making the Horde a terrible villain again seems to be recycling the same story.

[Trassk]

Likewise
Humans invaded the Orc Homeworld, and even now invading the adopted Orcish homelands

again thats correct. I didn't like what Garrosh did to theramore, but if the horde had a huge city located off the coast of, oh lets say westfall, would the alliance think that right? No of course not since they think themselves the good guys again.

[Aquamonkey]

Rhonin was a traitor to his perceived neutrality. He came in to fight against the horde with dalaran mages representing his faction against the horde attack on the city. By your ridiculous logic would could say all of the kirin tor betrayed the trust of the horde because of what they did, but it wasn't like that because it was a few mages rhonin brought with him, not all of the kirin tor.
As for the sunreavers, same bloody deal, a few acted in Garrosh's command, stealing a weapon from darnassus, well every other member of the sunreavers were blameless to what was happening, and still Jaina holds all of them accountable.

The Kirin Tor did. Rhonin did not act autonomously. The decision to aide Theramore was made by the Council of Six.

[Tekkommo]

I'm not going to start reading all this crap, but after a quick skim read, has this turned into a 'what side is bad' argument?

Both the alliance and horde are pretty evil in their own ways, there is no 'good guys' in this game.

Lots complain when nothing happens between the Horde and Alliance, lots complain when shit does...

You all still gladly participate in BGs though lol.