Thread: Dark Intent

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
... LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    So it's fair you just want the toys someone else has.
    I would not say that's an accurate distillation of my post there. You're framing it as a black/white "is it fair or not ? yes or no ?" matter. In that context, yes, I'd say it's fair enough.

    But if we have the capacity for nuance and ability to see things as matters of degree, I'd say they have the better package -- bordering on, but not quite, unfair. No, I don't think it's imbalanced enough to warrant changing game design. Yes, I do think Mages have it better.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    4,243
    This is the full list of buffs:

    Warlocks: Spell Power, Stamina (requires Imp or Fel Imp), and either Magic Vulnerability or Weakened Blows + Slow Casting

    Mages: Spell Power, Critical Strike, Time Warp, and Slow Casting (requires Arcane)


    And the three grimoires and all pets are "supposed" to be all equal to each other. In the SimCrafts, imps are worse by a 1-2k margin, but that could be made up for in multi-target fights where they have less downtime switching.

    So in theory, you want to use whatever pet is most useful in terms of utility and buffs. However that holds in reality is another issue.

    ---

    The crit buff is actually a pretty big issue though especially in 10m groups, because crit is a really valuable stat for a lot of classes, even including some tanks and healers, it's a throughput and mitigation stat. Stamina only helps buffer spike damage, and 8% can be covered with a scroll if needed. The magic vulnerability is really nice and often forgotten though (only brought by a rogue or hunter).
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2012-12-29 at 11:10 PM.

  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral Rickmagnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    The darkest corner with the best view.
    Posts
    1,039
    I vote we give them crit as well! And while we're at it, why not give them hero to. I mean why mages have something locks don't have? /sarcasm.
    Tell you what, locks can have crit on their buff if not even mages, but any other class can get a summon? =D

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    The crit buff is actually a pretty big issue though especially in 10m groups, because crit is a really valuable stat for a lot of classes, even including some tanks and healers, it's a throughput and mitigation stat. Stamina only helps buffer spike damage, and 8% can be covered with a scroll if needed. The magic vulnerability is really nice and often forgotten though (only brought by a rogue or hunter).
    If you were in a group with a lock, but no mage, hunter or feral druid, I would be shocked.
    Last edited by Rickmagnus; 2012-12-29 at 11:12 PM.
    "I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse."
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” - Issac Asimov

  4. #24
    I'm not sure it's fair to include Timewarp, that's more a raid cooldown type thing then a fixed buff/debuff. And if we're including spec specific things, like for Arcane, we might also take into account that Affliction has Curse of Exhaustion, which, while not a buff/debuff type spell, is at least mutually exclusive with the other curses, diminishing the usefulness of the other Curses when we need to use CoEx.

    On the whole I think I'd rather have Curse of the Elements + DI then I would like to have Arcane Brilliance. (if we are going by basic buffs/debuffs)
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  5. #25
    So I didn't play for the whole of Cata and this is the first time hearing that DKs no longer apply the spell damage buff. Luckily I was under the impression that it reduced resistances, which looking at the tooltip I'm not sure is even the case. /shrug
    Your comments are duly noted and ignored.
    I punch a hobo every time someone says 'it's not a rotation it's a priority list lol'.

  6. #26
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    11,204
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwtape View Post
    So I didn't play for the whole of Cata and this is the first time hearing that DKs no longer apply the spell damage buff. Luckily I was under the impression that it reduced resistances, which looking at the tooltip I'm not sure is even the case. /shrug
    Only Unholy applied that. Don't know if they still do in Mists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Only Unholy applied that. Don't know if they still do in Mists.
    Actually so did CoE. And no it no longer applies it in MoP.

  8. #28
    honestly i'd rather have di give sp and spell haste. there's more people that bring crit then haste and the old di was a haste buff with a damage increase proc
    "How easily the mind can be turned to hate from a place of fear - an instinctive, natural, protective response. Instead of focusing on the things that unite us, we focus on what divides us." - Thrall

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Only Unholy applied that. Don't know if they still do in Mists.
    Nope, just rogues with Master Poisoner, Locks with CoE and Hunters with some pet bring magic damage by 5%. DK's have melee haste and physical vulnerability.

    EDIT: and DK's also have Horn of Winter for Attack Power of course.
    Last edited by xskarma; 2012-12-29 at 11:35 PM.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  10. #30
    I'd go with + magic debuff over the crit any day of the week..

    Imagine if you got to buff the 5% crit.. But have the 5% magical damage removed from you.. the crit isn't so pretty now is it!!

    Pets bringing buffs is too weak an argument to hold.. as long as GoSac is the strongest.. or even as equal to the rest.. having pets bringing buffs is "Less than ideal", best way to address this I think would be to merge the buff provided by the pet with the owner, making it so that the actual warlock provide the aura that each pet provides when GoSac is used.
    Warlocks get buffed ONE TIME and suddenly developers are getting fired over it...

  11. #31
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    France, Illidan-EU
    Posts
    1,743
    I'd go with + magic debuff over the crit any day of the week..

    Imagine if you got to buff the 5% crit.. But have the 5% magical damage removed from you.. the crit isn't so pretty now is it!!
    Why would you prefer the magic debuff ?
    Both give you 5% damage increase (except for Destro), but you have to lose a GCD to put the magic debuff.
    NEW Android App : World of Quizzcraft
    Test your knowledge of WoW with more than 1100 questions and 80 achievements!

    Web Apps : Deaths Analyzer, WoL Timeline, Megaera Dps Calculator
    WoW-Heroes

  12. #32
    Maybe if we had a slight bit more utility tied to our pets, I could buy into GC's argument of we can bring Stamina so it's balanced with mages bringing crit, considering both their buffs are pure fire/forget with no personal dps loss associated ... making us more equivalent to hunters than mages. Like maybe if the felhunter/observer brought spell haste, voidwalker/lord brought Weakened Blows, fel/wrathguard brought weakened armor and/or physical vulnerability.

    I think that level of variety would, at least for my money, make it more fair. As it stands, I'd much rather have crit than stam for soloing, considering you can get scrolls of fort that are only 2% less stam than blood pact / fortitude proper.

    That being said ... just to repeat myself, I don't think it's so out of balance now it needs to be changed. Nothing will ever be 100% equal for all specs in the game, and I wouldn't want it to be ... just, yeah, who wouldn't want to be on the better side of "fair enough" ?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Why would you prefer the magic debuff ?
    Both give you 5% damage increase (except for Destro), but you have to lose a GCD to put the magic debuff.
    5% crit =/= 5% more damage

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 12:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Maybe if we had a slight bit more utility tied to our pets, I could buy into GC's argument of we can bring Stamina so it's balanced with mages bringing crit, considering both their buffs are pure fire/forget with no personal dps loss associated ... making us more equivalent to hunters than mages. Like maybe if the felhunter/observer brought spell haste, voidwalker/lord brought Weakened Blows, fel/wrathguard brought weakened armor and/or physical vulnerability.

    I think that level of variety would, at least for my money, make it more fair. As it stands, I'd much rather have crit than stam for soloing, considering you can get scrolls of fort that are only 2% less stam than blood pact / fortitude proper.

    That being said ... just to repeat myself, I don't think it's so out of balance now it needs to be changed. Nothing will ever be 100% equal for all specs in the game, and I wouldn't want it to be ... just, yeah, who wouldn't want to be on the better side of "fair enough" ?
    Right but the problem is you are wanting a buff you don't have without giving up the debuff you currently have. Stam though it does not benefit you much is still extra fluff compared to the fact that you and mages are rather even on the buffs/debuffs you provide. You're just wanting something more.

    And hunters give one buff themselves and one from their pet. Are you going to give up all your curses so that you can give spell power and your pet can give crit?
    Last edited by Xeraxis; 2012-12-30 at 12:31 AM.

  14. #34
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    11,204
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    Actually so did CoE. And no it no longer applies it in MoP.
    I meant of the DK specs. ^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post
    I only saw a few minutes of it but it looked slicker than a lubed up olympic swimmer fleeing from a shark.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    I meant of the DK specs. ^^
    Oh ok sorry I thought you meant that only Unholy gave the resist reduction out of all spell damage increasing buffs.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Why would you prefer the magic debuff ?
    Both give you 5% damage increase (except for Destro), but you have to lose a GCD to put the magic debuff.
    Its simple really.. yes both provide the same theoretical DPS, but the amount of classes bringing the crit buff surpasses that of those that brings the +magic debuff.

    For the record, the crit classes are:
    1. Mage.
    2. Feral Druid.
    3. Guardian Druid.
    4. WW Monk.
    5. Hunter via pets.


    Haste classes:
    1. Ele Shaman.
    2. Hunter via pet.
    3. Moonkin Druid.
    4. Spriest.

    5% Magic Debuff:
    1. Warlock.
    2. Hunter via pet.
    3. Rogue.


    Taking the +damage debuff away for crit lowers the chance of having the debuff in the raid by..33%, which is quite a bit considering its low as is.

    The thing is.. for 25man this doesn't matter really.. you'll get all the buffs needed regardless.. but for 10man, the chances of getting one of the classes that provide crit buff is higher than that of the +magic debuff.. so keeping our +damage debuff makes us warlocks unique for having it.. relatively speaking ofc.
    Warlocks get buffed ONE TIME and suddenly developers are getting fired over it...

  17. #37
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    278
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanamman View Post
    Tying a buff to a demon that will never be used in any situation ever is a pretty stupid idea. If they want to claim that we don't deserve a second effect because of that then fine, but no warlock is going to sacrifice 30-50% extra damage just to have an imp out. Its an incredibly stupid thought process.
    I did. The stam buff was more useful to the raid than the 2k dps I lost using the imp. Wasn't quite 30-50% extra damage, but still was damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    Who uses imp? Exactly. Lets not pretend for the sake of argument.
    Mage casts both. Why not lock? Would it be OP and game changing? Nope, just QoL change.


    Edit: It was the reason given by whoever answered that question which made me think they never played a warlock. If you are going to answer class question at least understand no one uses an imp with the current class mechanics in play.
    I've used the imp. We don't have a warrior, and our priest is out for a week here and there. So, imp. Believe it or not, it's sometimes more important to have a full spread of buffs/debuffs than watching your epeen shrink attempting to rank on WoL.
    After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)

    -Unretired as of the launch of 6.0! Currently guild shopping. Need a good Warlock? I need a good home!

  18. #38
    Herald of the Titans Adramalech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    2,681
    In my opinion, Blood Pact should be unlinked from the Imp pet. Unlike hunters, warlock pets don't all do the same DPS or behave the same way, and unlike hunters, a warlock can forsake their pet with the Sacrifice talent, so while a hunter can switch pets for buffs and lose nothing, a warlock will switch their pet's utility entirely. Blood Pact should, IMHO, be a buff provided by the warlock him or herself just like DI. I think it's fine that warlock pets each have their utility niche, but I'd say a simple buff doesn't fall under that category.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    As a warlock, allow me to be the first to say that I get tremendous amounts of joy from watching fear pathing take you to Africa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    Twinking is like going back to school when you are 30, just to be smarter than the other kids.

  19. #39
    Why even compare warlocks and mages? Warlocks are fine and I don't think anyone is seriously saying that they are underpowered and unwanted in pvp or pve. Easily one of the most unique and underplayed but powerful classes in the game. I don't know why you would want to change that.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    Right but the problem is you are wanting a buff you don't have without giving up the debuff you currently have. Stam though it does not benefit you much is still extra fluff compared to the fact that you and mages are rather even on the buffs/debuffs you provide. You're just wanting something more.

    And hunters give one buff themselves and one from their pet. Are you going to give up all your curses so that you can give spell power and your pet can give crit?
    This depends on whether one considers Stamina worthless, but GC himself put it on equal footing with the crit buff. Perhaps even more considering he seems fine with us using a sub-optimal pet to bring that buff.

    Now, admittedly, in reality it's only 2% over using a scroll, so it's not very much at all, but it is part of the total package.

    And if we traded one of our buffs/debuffs to our pet, that leaves us still in the dilemma of having to sacrifice personal dps to bring all our buffs, which mages do not have to do. Don't get me wrong, I still maintain it's fair "enough" -- but I don't see how anyone can argue that it's not preferable to not have to sacrifice personal dps (either with a sub-optimal talent or sub-optimal pet) to bring all your buffs/debuffs.

    There'd still be disparity but it would at least be more palatable to me (as in, less "fair enough" and more just "fair") if we had a wider range of buffs we could sacrifice personal dps for. Maybe if we could choose between magic vulnerability or spell haste since those are both brought by very few sources.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •