Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Are rogues the slowest 'initiation' class in pve?

    I hate the start of fights, specifically raid encounters, for a rogue. And perhaps even more specifically as assassination or subtlety. None of our damage is 'upfront', as all rogues would know.

    The stress of making sure you get in quick, get your opener out, pray for RNG in Assassination, get your dot/snd rolling, get up your CDs, one of which is on the GCD which is a colossal pain in the ass, sometimes just really bums me out.

    The initial adjustment phase as the tank gets in to position is literally make or break for rogue burst on engage, some fights I will burst out the gate with >200k dps, then on the same fight, same everything, I will barely burst out over 120k, because the rng kicked me in the nuts with dispatch and relentless strikes (because it is unfeasable to use 5pt finishers in this start up phase) or the tanks did something weird and moved the boss unexpectedly.

    Is there any other class that has this sort of annoyance in starting up encounters? I play a ele sham in raids sometimes and by god their initiation makes me drool, burst all over the joint.

    I know all classes have to waste GCDs on stuff at the start of a fight, but it seems to me that rogues have it really rough. Or maybe I am just jelly of all the burstier classes.

    I understand that marked for death might aim to alleviate that, but there is no way I will be choosing it over anticipation.

  2. #2
    assa has very nice dps at the begining

  3. #3
    If you're asking if other classes work harder for the same burst, mostly* the answer is no, and the reason why comes with our simple double resource system that just cycles, and how all the buffs we put up at the beginning (over a LONG period of time, by comparison) are increases to passive damage in the future.

    Are there classes with pissy openings? Sure; the last H Garalon pull on my warlock, my cloak and Jade Spirit and Relic ALL refused to proc until after I'd refreshed my dots. Does it happen often? No, but RNG can bite anyone, how just depends on the class.

  4. #4
    It's even worse if you for some reason get knocked out of stealth before you can initiate... I just don't understand; Feral druids, whose resource system and dps-rotation is nigh completely identical to ours, essentially have a "free 12 sec Slice and Dice" glyph, which allows them to instantly throw it up before/during the pull. Their Slice and Dice is, literally, free! Why can't we have that?!

    And don't give me the "apples and oranges" crap... There's next to no difference between a Sub rogue and a Feral druid in rotation. Hemo - Rake, Backstab - Shred, Slice n' Dice - Savage Roar, Rupture - Rip, Eviscerate - Ferocious Bite... The resource system is already the same, the abilities are completely identical in function, the only difference is the damage distribution.

    Hell, why not make the 40% attack speed of Slice and Dice baseline for Assassination instead?! That would be a huge quality of life improvement for the spec. There's no reason for us to waste 80 energy on a pull just to get Slice running.

    The people designing the rogue class are doing a pathetic job! The fact that I, some random forum poster, am able to find a solve existing issues in a class this easily, with fixes THAT ARE ALREADY IN THE GAME simply proves how little they care for the rogue class.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 06:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    If you're asking if other classes work harder for the same burst, mostly* the answer is no, and the reason why comes with our simple double resource system that just cycles, and how all the buffs we put up at the beginning (over a LONG period of time, by comparison) are increases to passive damage in the future.

    Are there classes with pissy openings? Sure; the last H Garalon pull on my warlock, my cloak and Jade Spirit and Relic ALL refused to proc until after I'd refreshed my dots. Does it happen often? No, but RNG can bite anyone, how just depends on the class.
    I think he meant in a general sense.
    The current Assassination opening consists of the following steps:
    - Open with a stealth Mutilate/Ambush
    - Instant Slice
    *Potential downtime due to RNG
    - One or more Mutilates
    - Rupture the target
    *Assume proper dps rotation

    If you're lucky, the process above can take about 5 seconds or so. If rng bites your ass, you're looking at 10+.

    In comparison, here's the Frost DK variant:
    - Outbreak
    * Assume proper dps rotation

    That's literally one second of ramp up, which is SLIGHTLY faster than the rogue counterpart and completely unaffected by rng.
    Last edited by Incineration; 2012-12-27 at 05:04 PM.

  5. #5
    High Overlord Lichu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    109
    That's opening sequence seems odd, maybe that's your issue.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lichu View Post
    That's opening sequence seems odd, maybe that's your issue.
    That opening rotation is absolutely accurate. You can debate whether starting with Slice or Rupture is the most optimal way to go, but either way, the concept is the same: Get Slice running, get Rupture running, do so with the only builder you have. That's all there is to it.

    Who mentioned issues? I'm doing fine on my rogue. The opening is just a massive pain in the ass, even though it could and should be much more streamlined and efficient to pull off.

  7. #7
    That opening rotation is perfectly fine. Rogues are just a tad bit rng dependant so starting your dps rotation can indeed be quite slow.

  8. #8
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    250
    If I'm a designer for PvE Rogues I wouldn't think about 'Is this class' burst good enough at the start of fights?' I'd look at 'Is this class' DPS good enough for the fight?' Fact is, someone has to be at the bottom and during the first phase of a boss, sometimes we are (or atleast near it). As mentioned above, we get abilities up early to enhance our damage to come whereas DK's have 1 GCD of ramp up then assume maximum DPS rotation.

    Either way, It doesn't matter for PvE. Rogues are the top melee DPS in the game, it's not a question of DPS it's a question of how we DPS which has been ongoing since release of MoP.

    Personally, I wouldn't make Slice n Dice passive because everyone is QQ'ing about PASSIVE DAMAGE and although we just waste 3 seconds at the start to get SnD up, it's something WE HAVE to do, which I like. If theres stuttered damage i.e Elegon sparks, It forces you to use an Envenom to refresh SnD, sometimes the Envenom is not necessary but HEY, we need to keep SnD up - It's a pretty awful attempt from Blizz at class rotation mechanics, but atleast it's there.

    Personally, I do like a simple rotation because it means theres more room for error on progression and thus easier to maintain maximum DPS whereas harder classes may dip on DPS when learning a new encounter. But yes, I would like some variation between the 3 specs, who wouldn't?

    Mutix

  9. #9
    I have the most terrible luck with dispatch procs. Usually I go through the entire Vendetta duration without a single dispatch proc which sucks really bad. It does suck that assassination's burst amount is determined by rng but that's the way it is now, nothing we can do but go with it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Either way, It doesn't matter for PvE. Rogues are the top melee DPS in the game, it's not a question of DPS it's a question of how we DPS which has been ongoing since release of MoP.
    I think it was warriors/dk's/ench shammies

  11. #11
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    250
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    I think it was warriors/dk's/ench shammies
    Meh I guess you're right, guess we need better Warriors / Dk's and Shammies in my guild But yea I checked WoL and RaidBot and Warriors were parsing higher than most melee, not by much but yea, Warriors are decent atm.

  12. #12
    not as slow as windwalker monks. We have to build 10 stacks of Tigereye Brew inorder to achieve maximum dps. That's 4 chi per stack.

  13. #13
    ret has a slow start aswell.

    hp generator -> hp generator -> hp generator -> inquisition -> hp generator -> hp generator -> hp generator -> first TV or another hp generator (depends on cds)

    etc.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Personally, I wouldn't make Slice n Dice passive because everyone is QQ'ing about PASSIVE DAMAGE and although we just waste 3 seconds at the start to get SnD up, it's something WE HAVE to do, which I like. If theres stuttered damage i.e Elegon sparks, It forces you to use an Envenom to refresh SnD, sometimes the Envenom is not necessary but HEY, we need to keep SnD up - It's a pretty awful attempt from Blizz at class rotation mechanics, but atleast it's there.
    I don't request Slice becoming passive for the entire class; Just for Assassination. The fact that Slice still exists clearly shows that the devs want it to stay, so to compromise, I want it baselined for Assassination due to how trivial its upkeep is, yet how devastating its dropping is.

  15. #15
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    250
    Here's a log from ScrubBusters: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e/?s=389&e=831

    It shows Imperial V heroic and from this you can see each classes burst.

    We can see that Boomkin seems to have the highest burst by far, followed by Death Knights and then Warriors and Rogues.

    In comparison, the classes with the least burst were: Warriors / Rogues.

    This shows us that burst is heavily dependent on procs and the only real way to judge class burst is to unequip trinkets and take off your weapon enchant.. I don't have access to such things for all classes but as the log shows, there can be 100k difference in burst DPS when looking at the rogues and I doubt any gear advantage is big enough to explain that sort of differentiation.

  16. #16
    Thanks for that log, it at least confirms a little of what I was saying. It is not a game breaking flaw, because as the fight goes on and assuming good uptime, rogues will still be respectable.

    It is the large inconsistency at the start of a fight that annoys me.

  17. #17
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    250
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I don't request Slice becoming passive for the entire class; Just for Assassination. The fact that Slice still exists clearly shows that the devs want it to stay, so to compromise, I want it baselined for Assassination due to how trivial its upkeep is, yet how devastating its dropping is.
    Meh, I completely get where your coming from but I think it would be a silly move for Blizzard to make another ability PASSIVE for us. It goes against what 99.9% of the rogue community wants! And we already give 10% Melee haste, so would we give that raid wide buff and then have ANOTHER melee haste buff just for ourselves?

    I think it would create more problems than it solves, and Blizzard doesn't like doing that.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Meh I guess you're right, guess we need better Warriors / Dk's and Shammies in my guild But yea I checked WoL and RaidBot and Warriors were parsing higher than most melee, not by much but yea, Warriors are decent atm.
    That's how dps is on a síngle target fight:

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lor.../7/30/default/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...11100000000000
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...11100000000000
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Grand_Emp...11100000000000

    And that's how it looks on Cleave fights:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone...11100000000000

    So i wonder what yopu are talking about. Rogues are by far the strongest melee ingame. Enhancers are weaker on nearly every fight except for windlord (because they have a little higher AOE).

    All this leads to following Spec Scores:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...10100000000000

    As you can see, who is nr. 1 and 2 by far?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 12:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Here's a log from ScrubBusters: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e/?s=389&e=831

    It shows Imperial V heroic and from this you can see each classes burst.

    We can see that Boomkin seems to have the highest burst by far, followed by Death Knights and then Warriors and Rogues.

    In comparison, the classes with the least burst were: Warriors / Rogues.

    This shows us that burst is heavily dependent on procs and the only real way to judge class burst is to unequip trinkets and take off your weapon enchant.. I don't have access to such things for all classes but as the log shows, there can be 100k difference in burst DPS when looking at the rogues and I doubt any gear advantage is big enough to explain that sort of differentiation.
    We can also see that one rogue is clearly ahead top on burst. So what do you want to tell us?

    Simcraft shows Assa burst a little in the middle, but not really bad. It peaks at 278k, enhancers at 291k. Boominks 350k.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Meh, I completely get where your coming from but I think it would be a silly move for Blizzard to make another ability PASSIVE for us. It goes against what 99.9% of the rogue community wants! And we already give 10% Melee haste, so would we give that raid wide buff and then have ANOTHER melee haste buff just for ourselves?

    I think it would create more problems than it solves, and Blizzard doesn't like doing that.
    How so? It's already there...! Hell, "Cut to the Chase" essentially IS that 40% self buff. Just in a skewered way... My request would simply make its presence more tolerable.

    Again, I'm going for a compromise; not what the community is asking for. I get where YOU are coming from, and I would personally love for Slice and Dice to disappear entirely and passive damage going down a notch, but once again, the devs have clearly demonstrated that the rotational mechanics aren't going to be changed any time soon. So to streamline and optimize the efficiency of the current rotations further, without creating entirely new rotations all together, I'd just make Slice baselined for Assassination. It would fix an issue that shouldn't have to exist.

    Alternatively, if what you're saying is, "I acknowledge your point, but I'd prefer Slice to be an active mechanic and not a passive one nonetheless..." How about giving us what the Feral's already have? A glyph that makes Slice and Dice free, without any combo point cost, for a 12 second duration.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    So i wonder what yopu are talking about. Rogues are by far the strongest melee ingame. Enhancers are weaker on nearly every fight except for windlord (because they have a little higher AOE).
    Honestly the bigger issue leading to rogues being SO far ahead on "all parses" (we're doing quite well, but with less of a lead on most, if we hold the lead at all on top 100), is that assassination is just really easy. You can plan 5-20 seconds ahead in your mind just by paying halfway decent attention, and it's really not difficult. Worse, screwing up doesn't cost you much (to borrow Ta'yak, average to top 100 is a 9.5k gap - which is both a play level AND gear change). By comparison, fury warriors pay dearly for mistakes like not aligning RB/Execute in their Reckbanners, and can make plenty of rotational mistakes that add up to more of a loss (to borrow Ta'yak again, 14k disparity from all to top 100). When you leave melee the discrepancy can get even larger - but of course this will only highlight disparities in highly played specs. Enhancement isn't, in my experience, popular this expansion, and while it's not at the front of the train, it's not the redheaded stepchild of DPS, but there aren't enough H progression enhancers to make it show. I can't speak entirely definitively on where other melee stand, but our single target is "fine". I'd consider it a bonus if we could target swap on a dime (primarily/only an issue from rupture).

    Rogues are fine, but played well* almost all melee are doing fine. My DPS target is a cat (on most fights; on Elegon my warlock cheats - and he will continue to be my target when shred/rip aren't bugged anymore). Whether or not rogues are "the top" will really rise to the edge of knowledge once we have a lot of rogues, DKs, cats, and warriors in BiS. Obviously there will be fights with distinct advantages for different classes (and until we see a partial reversion of the BF nerf, the rogue no longer has a cleave, just the rupture multi-dot), but across all fights, rogues are in the top tier (especially on average!).

    To the original topic again, Silk, the opening, depending on the fight, may or may not matter. I do wish we had either a harder opening or a harder execute, because both come in handy, but c'est la vie? The only fights that come to mind immediately where the opening burst is really important are Feng and Bladelord Ta'yak, but neither of them are really difficult either, so... I don't think we'll hurt that much, pet peeves aside.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •