1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Haste caps for Retribution

    So I know that we're probably never going to reach it, but I don't play ret at 90. What I'm after is are there any major caps at which haste becomes less amazing than say...crit or mastery?

    I remember pre-cata ret had a cap of 50% for a 3sec crusader strike cooldown, and I assume that this still exists, although I'm imagining that there's others, thanks to the Mop Sanctity of battle.

    Would haste be extremely devalued if I had say...70% from gear, and would I then consider throwing that into crit or mastery, or even strength?

    Thanks for any help.

  2. #2
    Haste does become less valuable after 50% due to the GCD cap, yes. But that's very far out of reach this tier, besides during Bloodlust. If/when you do somehow get past that, Strength is probably a safe bet, but I'm not sure how the weights will extrapolate out that far. Weights for lower-level characters will be very different, too.

  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meteoric View Post
    Haste does become less valuable after 50% due to the GCD cap, yes. But that's very far out of reach this tier, besides during Bloodlust. If/when you do somehow get past that, Strength is probably a safe bet, but I'm not sure how the weights will extrapolate out that far. Weights for lower-level characters will be very different, too.
    I don't think it's as "less valuable" as cata though, because in cata we only had ONE HP generator (two if you count DS which shares a cooldown). So the 3 sec was a 'cap' because it allowed us to CS-filler-CS-filler. Now that we have more HP generators, sure, bringing it below the GCD of 1s is not as valuable, but don't forget it also reduces the cooldown of all other HP generators. If anything, I'd say the cap is roughly the amount of haste needed to lower the cooldowns of CS, Exo and Judgement (and Hammer) such that we can generate 1 HP every second.

    What that number is I have no idea though.

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  4. #4
    Yeah, the 50% cap I'm sure still exists, but if that is reachable in MoP, is unknown, but it definitely isn't reachable now. I'm sure after that, gems turn to Strength, and reforge priority just bumps Haste down. It might be a defined amount once it is figured how much bloodlust is a use to us I'd say.

  5. #5
    I bet Splosion is asking because he's twinking and got crazy inflated secondary stats so reaching these values are not that hard. If it will be possible to reach it in MoP wasn't the question.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    I don't think it's as "less valuable" as cata though,
    Yeah, I agree. Less valuable than it was before 50%, was all I meant; how haste past 50% compares to other stats is another matter.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    I bet Splosion is asking because he's twinking and got crazy inflated secondary stats so reaching these values are not that hard. If it will be possible to reach it in MoP wasn't the question.
    Hit the nail on the head. I did mention that I didn't play ret at 90 :3

    Hadn't thought about the gcd cap either, I guess the value might be a reduction to about two seconds per HoPo generator, to get 3 per 3 seconds.

  8. #8
    Great info in the tread, things I'd been wondering as well. I guess we will be seeing this number creep closer as 5.2 nears.

    So far as someone who is newer to ret, this tear has felt whacky stat wise.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Chasey View Post
    Great info in the tread, things I'd been wondering as well. I guess we will be seeing this number creep closer as 5.2 nears.

    So far as someone who is newer to ret, this tear has felt whacky stat wise.
    Initial tiers are always weird stat wise. Partially because they need to make sure everyone can get hit/expertise capped and partially to make sure we aren't holding onto gear beyond this tier and possibly into the next one or even further just because it's properly weighted.

    One thing to look at pretty closely too is scaling - which is normally addressed in sims.

    Like for me my Hammer of Wrath only does about 45k or so worth of damage at a 483 iLevel. Whereas Anaxie stated that theirs was critting for a good 300k.

    So for me HoW is more important as a holy power generator that does damage slightly better than judgement or exorcism, whereas for him it's a true execute and as such he's making talent choices to support that.

    So keep an eye on your talents - especially avenging wrath, divine purpose and holy avenger. What one you really decide to roll with is going to change depending on your playstyle and gear level/balance.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Like for me my Hammer of Wrath only does about 45k or so worth of damage at a 483 iLevel. Whereas Anaxie stated that theirs was critting for a good 300k.

    So for me HoW is more important as a holy power generator that does damage slightly better than judgement or exorcism, whereas for him it's a true execute and as such he's making talent choices to support that.
    This makes no sense at all. There's just no way someone does 667% more with an ability under the same circumstances with what? 20 item level difference?

  11. #11
    Probably Shelly is comparing a normal-conditions hit against Anaxie's "full cooldowns, all procs, strength potion, mastery included" crit. At 300k, probably some kind of fight gimmick too, I'd guess - at ilvl 485, I think about my best non-gimmick HoW has been not much over 200k, counting the mastery tick.

    ...because uh, yeah, 300k crits under normal conditions would require something in the neighborhood of 90k attack power, which is way, way beyond what any Ret can possibly have this tier, and probably this expansion.
    Last edited by Meteoric; 2012-12-31 at 08:31 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Meteoric View Post
    Probably Shelly is comparing a normal-conditions hit against Anaxie's "full cooldowns, all procs, strength potion, mastery included" crit. At 300k, probably some kind of fight gimmick too, I'd guess - at ilvl 485, I think about my best non-gimmick HoW has been not much over 200k, counting the mastery tick.

    ...because uh, yeah, 300k crits under normal conditions would require something in the neighborhood of 90k attack power, which is way, way beyond what any Ret can possibly have this tier, and probably this expansion.
    Probably talking about mastery + initial damage, and he is only comparing initial damage with no CDs/War Banner.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Meteoric View Post
    Probably Shelly is comparing a normal-conditions hit against Anaxie's "full cooldowns, all procs, strength potion, mastery included" crit. At 300k, probably some kind of fight gimmick too, I'd guess - at ilvl 485, I think about my best non-gimmick HoW has been not much over 200k, counting the mastery tick.

    ...because uh, yeah, 300k crits under normal conditions would require something in the neighborhood of 90k attack power, which is way, way beyond what any Ret can possibly have this tier, and probably this expansion.
    Other way around (meaning I was talking average, Anaxie was probably talking full CD + raid CDs in coordination.)

    But my general point was that you're going to need to take a look at ability scaling in determination of your priority rotation.

    Good examples would be things like Consecrate post 5.2 or Blood Boil as it exists currently. They have high base damage but less scaling with attack power. Same deal will happen as you gear up and when you factor in things like weapon damage that will have strong effect on Templar's Verdict and Crusader's Strike - CS could then become shifted in your priority above something that scales much better with AP like Exorcism.

  14. #14
    For non-capped characters, it's also worth mentioning that weapon DPS is (for some reason) proportionally lower before the mid-80s, so non-weapon attacks will tend to dominate. Harsh Words is often better than TV at low levels for this reason, although not having Hand of Light contributes as well.

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meteoric View Post
    For non-capped characters, it's also worth mentioning that weapon DPS is (for some reason) proportionally lower before the mid-80s, so non-weapon attacks will tend to dominate. Harsh Words is often better than TV at low levels for this reason, although not having Hand of Light contributes as well.
    I'm aware of that (For example, I've assumed that crit > mastery sub 81 because of the lack of inquisition), it just occurred to me that I might be capping out in my gear. As far as I'm aware this can only happen at 70 and 80 (perhaps 85?), so those are the brackets that I'm addressing. I've tried going for 60% haste, but that still doesn't make the rotation seem totally "smooth". Hence the question.

  16. #16
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splosion View Post
    I've tried going for 60% haste, but that still doesn't make the rotation seem totally "smooth". Hence the question.
    The rotation is probably going to start feeling really wonky after 50% because of the GCD capping causing ability cooldowns to start clashing with each other. It would probably feel smoothest once CS reaches exactly 3 seconds (unless it's already past that at 50%, in which case it'd be Judgment at 3 seconds). But then once it gets past 3 seconds it's going to feel wonky again. (That's just speculation, though. It doesn't feel that bad under Bloodlust, but it does feel more awkward than normal.)

  17. #17
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    The rotation is probably going to start feeling really wonky after 50% because of the GCD capping causing ability cooldowns to start clashing with each other. It would probably feel smoothest once CS reaches exactly 3 seconds (unless it's already past that at 50%, in which case it'd be Judgment at 3 seconds). But then once it gets past 3 seconds it's going to feel wonky again.
    But why 3 seconds? In cata, 3 sec was because the GCD was 1.5 seconds, and CS was the only HP generator, so 3 seconds means a perfect CS-filler-CS-filler. Technically, 1.5 seconds CS would be ideal, because then you could CS-CS-CS. But that's a theoretical value because the haste needed is so high. On the other hand, we are talking about somewhat theoretical values here too.

    In Mists, with Sanctity affecting GCDs and more HP generators available, that doesn't apply anymore. So, to me at least, it won't be wonky until we hit the part where every second we are pressing a HP generator ability.

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  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    I'm practically doing that already, it just has some small clashes every now and then (gcd ends and judgement has .5sec cd left or so, maybe less). The issue then ends with HP generators, because exorcism hits about twice as hard (and has an 8.5sec cd with my haste, not including procs).

  19. #19
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    You're right, I meant two seconds. xD So it would be CS>something>CS>something>CS>something>etc.

  20. #20
    At 50% haste for the GCD soft cap, CS has a 3s cd, J has a 4s cd, Exo has a 10s cd, HoW has a 4s cd. Any and all haste up until this point only interacts with our rotation with respect to the t90 talents. Past the 50% "soft cap" haste will drop in value because now all it lets you do is let you use HoW and Exo instead of CS and J more often and boost your white swings/censure/seal dmg rather than straight adding more attacks and boosting white swings/censure/seals.

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