Delhi Rape Victim Dies; Accused Charged with Murder

[Kurioxan]

Genetics and upbringing is not meant as an excuse, but a explanation. And it brings us one step closer to "fixing" these "broken" criminals.

i know, I am not saying otherwise, i fully agree with what you said, i just contest the point of bringing genetics to it unless it is some sort of real disability, and in this cause it was out of malice, again i understand upbringing and social situation causing crime, but there is a huge difference between crime of need and crime of malice, in this cause is a crime of malice, upbringing might have some to do sadly, but even so.

[Kasierith]

this, morality over vengeance.

Also, people wishing the worst onto these criminals- its the primal nature of humans that youre showing that caused this in the first case.

Really, these men are victim themselves of bad upbringing and/or genetic predespositions..

It is very possible to come to an objective decision that capital punishment is a valid aspect of the justice system. The sheer amount of appeals, as well as the stringency of jury selection and the professionalism of the courts, is suitable protection against the concept of vengeance. When looking at the concept of justice logically, while disengaging your emotional faculties, it is not only a suitable response but a just response to a wide range of crimes; if anything, the current concept of it is attenuated severely, to be reserved only for the most heinous of crimes. If someone willingly kills another human being, have they not willingly surrendered their own right to life? Just as someone who has committed a crime overall has surrendered their right to be free from government imprisonment and labor? Remember that the only time slave labor is legal in the States, is when it is done as punishment for a crime.

Also, bad upbringing and genetic dispositions, while fundamental in identifying where they are coming from and possible ways to prevent future crime, are ultimately irrelevant, as each act is its own choice and you cannot dismiss the severity of a crime based on someone's previous actions.

[Ebildays]

Comparing a prison sentence to physical torture is ludicrous.

Like I stated before it can be compared to a degree, I did not say they were the same or equal. We find the level of psychological torture prison cause to be mild therefore okay. You want to believe people are monsters because they want the men who raped that woman to suffer but if you look at how the justice system is set up it is about inflicting a degree of controlled suffering on criminals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice is what I believe in, and here's why: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/RJ_full_report.pdf

I don't see how restorative justice is going to work in a cases like this. The victim is dead and there is no way that the offender can compensate for her life and lost of income to the family reasonably. I can see restorative justice working in some cases like the youth offender cases that seem were mainly used as tests but not as a fix for all cases. If we have not learned anything from how we treat criminal cases is that there is no one perfect fix and there needs to be different options.

yeah i have no idea wht that person is saying. i guess no consequences for actions

i dont think these men need rehabilitation, they are all sane. they are just all ass holes

The EagleOwl Mage was calling people monsters for wanting the men that raped that lady to suffer, I was just pointing out that our justice system is based on causing suffering to our criminals to a degree.

Genetics and upbringing is not meant as an excuse, but a explanation. And it brings us one step closer to "fixing" these "broken" criminals.

Genetics is an excuse but upbringing is the main problem in this case and if they can change how their children are brought up in regards to the worth of women that would help fix things a lot. Genetically these men are the same as us because if we believe that they some type of genetic predisposition for committing a crime like this. Plus we have to look at what is the odds that all of these men with this genetic predisposition would just happen to be on the same bus together. Combine that with the fact that there have been several gang rape incidents in India and the most likely cause for this behavior is upbringing not genetics.

[Dezerte]

It's after all about morality, and while we all share mostly the same morality we can differ. I can't point to logic or rationality on this one, it's based on my personal ethics.

I believe in restorative justice for all crimes, others believe in retributive justice for all crimes or certain crimes. The only time I think it may be okay/acceptable to kill another human being is in self-defense (if you feared your life was at risk).

---------- Post added 2013-01-01 at 05:08 PM ----------

I don't see how restorative justice is going to work in a cases like this. The victim is dead and there is no way that the offender can compensate for her life and lost of income to the family reasonably. I can see restorative justice working in some cases like the youth offender cases that seem were mainly used as tests but not as a fix for all cases. If we have not learned anything from how we treat criminal cases is that there is no one perfect fix and there needs to be different options.

If the victim is dead, the next of kin would be involved instead. Whether restorative justice can work in cases like this is hard to say; definitely tougher, but I can't rule out the possibility (especially considering the effects it has had in that report on violent crimes & victim benefits). I don't see it as a perfect fix, but I prefer it to the death penalty.

Genetics is an excuse but upbringing is the main problem in this case and if they can change how their children are brought up in regards to the worth of women that would help fix things a lot. Genetically these men are the same as us because if we believe that they some type of genetic predisposition for committing a crime like this. Plus we have to look at what is the odds that all of these men with this genetic predisposition would just happen to be on the same bus together. Combine that with the fact that there have been several gang rape incidents in India and the most likely cause for this behavior is upbringing not genetics.

Genes can explain behaviors, such as aggression, greed. impulsiveness and so on. I'm not saying it's an excuse, it complements the upbringing giving you the whole picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_of_aggression

[Stir]

I firmly believe that a someone who can kill another person like that should be put down instantly, their genepool is not wanted in any society i live in.

While I personally agree with this stance, it has nothing to do with types of penalty. This stance is not about justice, or vengeance. It's about efficiency.
I also think 'vengeance' is always misplaced. Vengeance should never be fed, never be satisfied. Vengeance is not justice. So no 'death penalty.' I'd vote for life imprisonment. After that ('life' is usually no more than 24 years), it should be a permanent spot in the local asylum. Justice is about punishing... But we should ask ourselves: Do we really want people like that on the streets? We kill rabid dogs... Not because we're upset with them, not because we hate them, not because we seek vengeance or justice. We put them down because they're a threat, and it's more humane to end their existence quickly than to let them slowly wither away.
Humans that pose such a threat instead get justice (for better or worse), while we're not looking at the actual problems.

Edit: This also means that there should always be the chance for restorative justice. The removal from society should only be in the case of no hope for recovery.

[Fojos]

I didn't say rape is a myth. I said rape myth, which is a technical term with a specific meaning. It refers to the misconceptions people have regarding rape. One of the biggest is the idea that women often make false accusations of rape to discredit a person. However, people do not make false reports of rape more often than they make false reports of crime in general.

The problem with what you're saying is that it's impossible to know how many of them are "fake". It can't be estimated, especially not by police officers, considering they almost always take the womans side, regardless.

Once you're accused of rape, your life is almost ruined regardless if you're guilty or not.

[Kasierith]

The problem with what you're saying is that it's impossible to know how many of them are "fake". It can't be estimated, especially not by police officers, considering they almost always take the womans side, regardless.

Once you're accused of rape, your life is almost ruined regardless if you're guilty or not.

If the media gets a hold of it, sure, and broadcasting such cases even after someone has been deemed innocent is truly a disgusting act. Also, a mere accusation of rape with no investigation isn't typically something that people will grab on to; most media sensationalism is focused around the trial period.

I would also disagree that police officers almost always take the woman's side. For example: http://homepage.smc.edu/delpiccolo_g...ture_final.pdf

The general unwillingness of police and district attorneys to prosecute rapes where force was not involved or where the victim had some sort of relationship with the aggressor is also cited as a motivation for date rape and campus rape

[Wyrllish]

death, along with the 26 others who votes to let them go.

[Jackmoves]

Once you're accused of rape, your life is almost ruined regardless if you're guilty or not.

Not really true, you live in Sweden so you would know the number of reported rapes in this country is quite high in comparison to most other countries, yet sentenced rapists are no higher then that of other countries and comparisons based on victim surveys place Sweden at an average level among other European nations.

I don't know anyone who's been accused of rape or has accused someone of rape so I'm no expert but I must disagree with your statement, imo it depends on

A. Is it a solid case, can it be taken to court?
B. Are you judged guilty?
C. If not guilty, did the accusations ruin your relationship with friends and family?
D. Media leaking your photo/name without a conviction attached to your name?

If none of the above applies, move on with life.

Here is an interesting article

14 September 2012 Last updated at 23:37 GMT
Sweden's rape rate under the spotlight
By Ruth Alexander BBC News

The Julian Assange extradition case has put Sweden's relatively high incidence of rape under the spotlight. But can such statistics be reliably compared from one country to another?

Which two countries are the kidnapping capitals of the world?

Australia and Canada.

Official figures from the United Nations show that there were 17 kidnaps per 100,000 people in Australia in 2010 and 12.7 in Canada.

That compares with only 0.6 in Colombia and 1.1 in Mexico.

So why haven't we heard any of these horror stories? Are people being grabbed off the street in Sydney and Toronto, while the world turns a blind eye?

No, the high numbers of kidnapping cases in these two countries are explained by the fact that parental disputes over child custody are included in the figures.

If one parent takes a child for the weekend, and the other parent objects and calls the police, the incident will be recorded as a kidnapping, according to Enrico Bisogno, a statistician with the United Nations.

Comparing crime rates across countries is fraught with difficulties - this is well known among criminologists and statisticians, less so among journalists and commentators.

Sweden has the highest rape rate in Europe, author Naomi Wolf said on the BBC's Newsnight programme recently. She was commenting on the case of Julian Assange, the Wikileaks founder who is fighting extradition from the UK to Sweden over rape and sexual assault allegations that he denies.

Is it true? Yes. The Swedish police recorded the highest number of offences - about 63 per 100,000 inhabitants - of any force in Europe, in 2010. The second-highest in the world.

This was three times higher than the number of cases in the same year in Sweden's next-door neighbour, Norway, and twice the rate in the United States and the UK. It was more than 30 times the number in India, which recorded about two offences per 100,000 people.

On the face of it, it would seem Sweden is a much more dangerous place than these other countries.

But that is a misconception, according to Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm. She says you cannot compare countries' records, because police procedures and legal definitions vary widely.

"In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics," she says.

"So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record - one victim, one type of crime, one record."

But something's going on.

Klara Selin says the statistics don't represent a major crime epidemic, rather a shift in attitudes. The public debate about this sort of crime in Sweden over the past two decades has had the effect of raising awareness, she says, and encouraging women to go to the police if they have been attacked.

The police have also made efforts to improve their handling of cases, she suggests, though she doesn't deny that there has been some real increase in the number of attacks taking place - a concern also outlined in an Amnesty International report in 2010.

"There might also be some increase in actual crime because of societal changes. Due to the internet, for example, it's much easier these days to meet somebody, just the same evening if you want to. Also, alcohol consumption has increased quite a lot during this period.

"But the major explanation is partly that people go to the police more often, but also the fact that in 2005 there has been reform in the sex crime legislation, which made the legal definition of rape much wider than before."

So an on-the-face-of-it international comparison of rape statistics can be misleading.

Botswana has the highest rate of recorded attacks - 92.9 per 100,000 people - but a total of 63 countries don't submit any statistics, including South Africa, where a survey three years ago showed that one in four men questioned admitted to rape.

In 2010, an Amnesty International report highlighted that sexual violence happens in every single country, and yet the official figures show that some countries like Hong Kong and Mongolia have zero cases reported.

Evidently, women in some countries are much less likely to report an attack than in others and are much less likely to have their complaint recorded.

UN statistician Enrico Bisogno says surveys suggest that as few as one in 10 cases are ever reported to the police, in many countries.

So there's a lot that official statistics don't tell us. They certainly don't reveal the real number of rapes that happen in Sweden, or any other country. And they don't give a clear view of which countries have worse crime rates than others.

Rape is particularly complex, but you'd think it would be straightforward to analyse murder rates across different countries - just count up the dead bodies, and compare and contrast.

If only, says Enrico Bisogno. "For example, if I punch somebody and the person eventually dies, some countries can consider that as an intentional murder, others as a manslaughter. Or in some countries, dowry killings are coded separately because there is separate legislation."

What's more, a comparison of murder rates between developed and less developed countries may tell you as much about health as crime levels, according to Professor Chris Lewis, a criminologist from Portsmouth University in the UK.

The statistics are to some unknown degree complicated by the fact that you're more likely to survive an attack in a town where you're found quickly and taken to a hospital that's well-equipped.

[Deleted]

Killing someone only serves to still our thirst for vengeance. It's not justice.

[Sanavi]

Life Imprisonment, without parole, WITHOUT segregation or isolation. Prisoners tend to handle child molesters and rapists in their own special way...

[Kasierith]

Killing someone only serves to still our thirst for vengeance. It's not justice.

That's the same reasoning that pacifists use to say that violence is never the answer, despite the fact that there are objective reasons for it to be the answer to a specific problem.

[Aalyy]

I disagree with the death penalty under any circumstances. The strength of my convictions on this matter got put to the test when my sister was murdered by her boyfriend. As much as I wanted him to suffer a slow painful death the other side of me couldn't bring myself to want the death penalty for him. As much as hate this man like I've hated no one else, I just don't think institutionalized killing is moral and it, IMO, has no place in a civilized society.

We need to do a better job of understanding violence in our society. We need to figure out what makes the people who commit these horrible acts tick. We also need to not be afraid to confront certain facts like men are far far more likely to be violent than women and attempt to figure out why and find a solution rather than glossing over it because it's the default in our society. I also think varying degrees of mental illness play a role. Basically we need to look honestly at violence, who is committing violent crimes, and figure out why if we want to have any hope of changing things.

[Deleted]

to those 26 people voted "let them go" , would you change your minds if your mother or daughter were victims of such crime ?

[Dezerte]

I disagree with the death penalty under any circumstances. The strength of my convictions on this matter got put to the test when my sister was murdered by her boyfriend. As much as I wanted him to suffer a slow painful death the other side of me couldn't bring myself to want the death penalty for him. As much as hate this man like I've hated no one else, I just don't think institutionalized killing is moral and it, IMO, has no place in a civilized society.

We need to do a better job of understanding violence in our society. We need to figure out what makes the people who commit these horrible acts tick. We also need to not be afraid to confront certain facts like men are far far more likely to be violent than women and attempt to figure out why and find a solution rather than glossing over it because it's the default in our society. I also think varying degrees of mental illness play a role. Basically we need to look honestly at violence, who is committing violent crimes, and figure out why if we want to have any hope of changing things.

I'm sorry for your loss & I respect your moral integrity to not wish death upon even the most violent humans.

[Garnier Fructis]

to those 26 people voted "let them go" , would you change your minds if your mother or daughter were victims of such crime ?

I'm pretty sure they're all trolling. Some people vote for an option for no other reason than that they can.

[Razeo]

Life imprisonment. I've never been a supporter of the death penalty. It's the 21st f****n century, we should be beyond that type of ideology. But looking at this poll, I can see it'll be awhile before that happens if it ever happens for that matter.

[Nanaboostme]

http://news.yahoo.com/police-delhi-g...023445604.html

one of the suspects has committed suicide in jail. 1 down 5 more to go. And the youngest one, the most brutal one of them all, will probably get away with it because he's a juvenile

[The Small Hours]

These kind of brutal attacks are like a daily occurance in my country of South Africa, just the other day a two year old girl was gang raped. It's fills my eyes with tears that this world is so f'd.

[Nanaboostme]

These kind of brutal attacks are like a daily occurance in my country of South Africa, just the other day a two year old girl was gang raped. It's fills my eyes with tears that this world is so f'd.

yes unfortunately its been happening since dawn of human lets not forget what u.s. troops did to the vietnamese during the vietnam war, rape infants and stick bayonets up their parts. no country is good. sometimes Ignorance is bliss.