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  1. #1

    Would MMOs have been better off if WoW was never made?

    Before WoW came along everyone was happy. We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try. We didnt compare games to each other and we were happy playing what we were playing. Then in 2004 WoW is released. Fast Forward to 2012. A game cant be released without it either being called a "WoW-killer" or "just another WoW clone" People want to compare new games that havent been out for even a month to a polished game thats been out for 8 years. No new game stands a chance when it comes out because all these idiots expect it to be just as refined and bug free as WoW is. Also you cant say a new game is better and more fun than WoW without some idiot fanboy going "If it was so much better why doesnt it have 10 million players?". Would the MMO genre have been better off if WoW never existed?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    Before WoW came along everyone was happy. We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try. We didnt compare games to each other and we were happy playing what we were playing. Then in 2004 WoW is released. Fast Forward to 2012. A game cant be released without it either being called a "WoW-killer" or "just another WoW clone" People want to compare new games that havent been out for even a month to a polished game thats been out for 8 years. No new game stands a chance when it comes out because all these idiots expect it to be just as refined and bug free as WoW is. Also you cant say a new game is better and more fun than WoW without some idiot fanboy going "If it was so much better why doesnt it have 10 million players?". Would the MMO genre have been better off if WoW never existed?
    No, it would suck. It's like saying, would it be better if humanity never existed, then life on earth wouldn't be endangered. Well, neither intelligence would be a thing.

  3. #3
    If it wasn't WoW, it would have been another game. The time was just right at that point for MMO's to take off. WoW happened to come up with the right formula to interest a lot of players who wouldn't have thought twice about playing an MMO before.

    I really think WoW's success can be attributed to luck and timing.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try. We didnt compare games to each other and we were happy playing what we were playing.
    I honestly kind of doubt this, sorry.

    Anyways, no, because despite those shortcomings, the game design that WoW came with was a pretty good thing. Regardless of the hate and arguments, WoW has the subs it does for a reason. Sure, the game ain't perfect, but it does a damn good job of trying to be a game for a broad audience.

  5. #5
    Well this is a complex question, in some ways, yes definitely. There are quite a few very good MMOs (games that are significantly better than WoW itself) that are labeled failures just because they didn't have any where near the same subscribers as WoW.

    But then, would MMOs have a large enough player base to survive if WoW hadn't brought them into relevance? Would developers be willing to risk so much money on them if they didn't see how much money WoW makes? Probably not...
    WoW having more subs than SWTOR is the same thing as Justin Bieber having more youtube plays than Tupac. Just because its more popular doesn't mean its good.
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  6. #6
    In a nutshell, yes that scenario would have been better for the MMO market in the long run.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try.
    I sure as hell wasn't, in fact I just thought of them as nerdy games. I was however playing a LOT of cs and wc3. It would have been nice to have many other successful MMORPGs but then I'd probably have a hard time investing in one of them.
    Last edited by chosenkiwi; 2012-12-24 at 04:09 PM.

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Slummish's Avatar
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    WoW's evolution is a positive force on the gaming industry. Before WoW, mmos were a true exercise in the grind. WoW has changed gamers expectations for content. WoW has shown gamers what is possible beyond the kill/collect aspect of online rpgs. Blizzard did not invent the mmorpg, but they did set the gaming industry on a much needed compass direction.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Hanto's Avatar
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    Maybe. I think the MMO gaming community/genre got a lot of attention over the years because of WoW. By attention I mean interest from mostly new gamers, media, etc. Before WoW, I had only heard of Everquest. Now I hear about every MMO that comes out, regardless of what interest I may have in it. Word spreads better in hopes of hitting it big like WoW did, and that's definitely a good thing for new MMOs.

  10. #10
    I was around back then playing some Ultima Online and Asherons Call and yes, people DID say "omfg XX is gonna be a YY-Killer!"

    Remember when Anarchy Online first came out? That game was suppose to shut shit down lol.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    Before WoW came along everyone was happy. We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try. We didnt compare games to each other and we were happy playing what we were playing. Then in 2004 WoW is released.
    Clearly you never saw DAoC vs EQ fanboy wars.

  12. #12
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    Oh look it's a case of nostalgia.

    I'm sorry but back then, people did compare games, people did get excited about new releases and call them killers, WoW didn't change anything in that sense.

    Humans have always been whiny brats

    I think back then, you only had access to one small community or you have just clearly forgotten what it was like.

  13. #13
    Every MMO that has come out after WOW has done better because of the larger MMO base that WOW created. Their failures can be placed only at their own feet. If you dislike 'theme park' mmos their proliferation is not their fault but the fault of consumers that gobble that shit up and developers that fail to think outside the box and offer a sandbox that isn't a grind or overly simple at the same time.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    Before WoW came along everyone was happy. We were all playing Ultima Online, DAoC, Everquest, FF XI, and possibly a few other games Im forgetting that I didnt try. We didnt compare games to each other and we were happy playing what we were playing. Then in 2004 WoW is released. Fast Forward to 2012. A game cant be released without it either being called a "WoW-killer" or "just another WoW clone" People want to compare new games that havent been out for even a month to a polished game thats been out for 8 years. No new game stands a chance when it comes out because all these idiots expect it to be just as refined and bug free as WoW is. Also you cant say a new game is better and more fun than WoW without some idiot fanboy going "If it was so much better why doesnt it have 10 million players?". Would the MMO genre have been better off if WoW never existed?
    MMO would not be better without WoW. The problem is wow popularity bring alot of player who should not be playing mmo, aka the casual. MMORPG isn't made for people who only wanna play an hour a day and still enjoy everything the game has to offer within a month.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerai View Post
    Clearly you never saw DAoC vs EQ fanboy wars.
    Pretty much this. As a hardcore DAoC player before I got into WoW, all I did was rag on friends who played EQ.
    Professor of History at Silvermoon University

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    Would the MMO genre have been better off if WoW never existed?
    Absolutely not. For all the WoW bashing you hear or read on forums, many of them lack the perspective of playing the early MMOs. The success of WoW as a product was built on all the lessons learned from previous MMO designers who were designing a new genera of gaming. Those designers could never have foreseen the complications that come about from social player interactions. If you ever think you had a bad day in WoW - then you never played Ultima Online where griefing was king.

    The WoW design is fairly simple: In the World of Warcraft - everyone is a winner. Some people win more than others.
    They have stripped the game of all risk. You never actually lose anything. You are also rewarded for even the most basic participation.

    No other game comes out with content and updates as frequently as WoW. From an MMO product standpoint, it is the best on the market. I base that on having played Ultima Online, DAoC, Shadowbane, Lineage II, etc. etc. Blizzard is a safe bet for your subscription dollar and time investment.

    The premise of this thread is faulty - assuming everyone was happy? If everyone was happy, they wouldn't have subscribed to WoW - and stuck with Blizzard.
    MMO games have always been compared to each other. And for any new game to compete - yes, they are going to be compared to WoW because Blizzard has the largest subscriber base.

    To compete successfully, new games have to offer something better.
    If you pay attention, Blizzard does respond to the competition. They constantly implement new features to improve your game experience, provide more opportunities for you, and revise old systems which are based on user feedback.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by adramelek View Post
    MMO would not be better without WoW. The problem is wow popularity bring alot of player who should not be playing mmo, aka the casual. MMORPG isn't made for people who only wanna play an hour a day and still enjoy everything the game has to offer within a month.
    Being honest the hardcore raider are the worst customers for MMO's, very high expectations and zero tolerance for anything thats not quite right and put very little back into the game. They also tend to drive away the majority of players who don't fit into your small world of what you think a MMO should be and complain and whine when the other 95% of people who player the game are able to get the same item's (but slower) as you get yourself, the fact that they get it has no actual detrimental effect on yourself has no relation to these complaints, you don't want anyone with a life to have it, so you can be a unique snowflake and justify your 14 hrs a day playing a video game for which you pay to play.

    Luckily a vast majority of company's recognize that it would be commercial suicide to cater just to a hardcore few. which it would be and that is beyond debate, and the games quality and scale are much better as a result.

    You do seem to have a rather silly notion of casual game play, and hour a day and see all content within a month... Can you at least use common sense when making a point rather than total hyperbole and exaggeration.

    No casual player expects to see all the content within a month, 6 months probably and still be happy. Hardcore raiders on the other hand are whining after 4 weeks that there's no more content, so the dev's put more in ... and they whine thats there's to much to do .....

    Yet supposedly these typical hardcore guys miss the good old days when you had to grind stuff and getting items took time ...

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 04:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bansath View Post
    Absolutely not. For all the WoW bashing you hear or read on forums, many of them lack the perspective of playing the early MMOs. The success of WoW as a product was built on all the lessons learned from previous MMO designers who were designing a new genera of gaming. Those designers could never have foreseen the complications that come about from social player interactions. If you ever think you had a bad day in WoW - then you never played Ultima Online where griefing was king.

    The WoW design is fairly simple: In the World of Warcraft - everyone is a winner. Some people win more than others.
    They have stripped the game of all risk. You never actually lose anything. You are also rewarded for even the most basic participation.

    No other game comes out with content and updates as frequently as WoW. From an MMO product standpoint, it is the best on the market. I base that on having played Ultima Online, DAoC, Shadowbane, Lineage II, etc. etc. Blizzard is a safe bet for your subscription dollar and time investment.

    The premise of this thread is faulty - assuming everyone was happy? If everyone was happy, they wouldn't have subscribed to WoW - and stuck with Blizzard.
    MMO games have always been compared to each other. And for any new game to compete - yes, they are going to be compared to WoW because Blizzard has the largest subscriber base.

    To compete successfully, new games have to offer something better.
    If you pay attention, Blizzard does respond to the competition. They constantly implement new features to improve your game experience, provide more opportunities for you, and revise old systems which are based on user feedback.
    Very much hit the nail on the head. WoW would not have the subscriber base it has if it was a poor or disliked game, and while imo some of the newer MMO's have knocked out update a bit quicker, Blizz are learning from this and are updating quicker with more content that is of high quality.

    I do think in many ways the MMO community has been spoiled with WoW and how good a quality product it has become, and people loose sight of this and just take it for granted.
    Last edited by Shakari; 2012-12-24 at 04:54 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakari View Post
    Being honest the hardcore raider aka yourself are the worst customers for MMO's, very high expectations and zero tolerance for anything thats not quite right and put very little back into the game. You also tend to drive away the majority of players who don't fit into your small world of what you think a MMO should be and complain and whine when the other 95% of people who player the game are able to get the same item's (but slower) as you get yourself, the fact that they get it has no actual detrimental effect on yourself has no relation to these complaints, you don't want anyone with a life to have it, so you can be a unique snowflake and justify your 14 hrs a day playing a video game for which you pay to play.

    Luckily a vast majority of company's recognize that it would be commercial suicide to cater just to a hardcore few. which it would be and that is beyond debate, and the games quality and scale are much better as a result.

    You also seem to have a rather silly notion of casual game play, and hour a day and see all content within a month... Can you at least use common sense when making a point rather than total hyperbole and exaggeration.

    No casual player expects to see all the content within a month, 6 months probably and still be happy. Hardcore raiders on the other hand are whining after 4 weeks that there's no more content, so the dev's put more in ... and they whine thats there's to much to do .....

    Yet supposedly these typical hardcore guys miss the good old days when you had to grind stuff and getting items took time ...
    why are you so angry. You have a life so you cannot enjoy a hobby? You're life must truly suck. How much time do you watch TV a week?

    Also I'm working on sha of fear heroic with only 12 hours a week played. not 14 hours a day. Keep living in your fantasy world of what YOU THINK it takes to play the game well.

    Game isn't hard and bad play is laziness.

    Also what i think is selfish is the playerbase crying for more content when they cannot see the outstanding encounters melded together in the heroic setting where everything flows and is important. I mean it's silly to only play half a game.

    Wow normal modes are the equivalent of playing an FPS where enemies shoot you with non lethal rounds while you shoot them with a handcannon as they stand still. Or racing someone in a wheelchair while you are in a car.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-12-24 at 05:01 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    -snip-
    The problem isnt WoW itself but the fact that WoW is global in availibility and marketablility while new games that come out have can only market in NA and EU. Sure you get players outside those continents but its not marketed and could be hard to find. I know some games where you need someone in that country to buy it or send you a copy (tho with digital games this is less of a problem)

    Ppl who call X game a WoW killer are stupid or trolling. Blizzard/Activision will do what it needs to do to make the consumers and those in the MMO market believe they have 10mil+ players. They do this because they know new games coming out cannot compete with those numbers (again they arent releasing in a global market which WoW is) and they know noobs on forums are gonna see that 10 mil number and look at a recent released game with 1.5 mil subs and say "oh fail game, so much for that WoW-killer, Game was over-hyped, ima quit it or im not gonna buy it"

    That is what is ultimately going on with players who are looking for a new MMO to replace WoW or their current MMO that pay attention to numbers and base their decision off that.

    Now i truly believe it has to do with Friends. I have tried for months, almost a year now to get my close WoW buddies to play GW2. Ive gotten 1 to actually buy the game. Ive gotten beta keys, free trials you name it and no one even wants to attempt to play the game. Now these guys all went and played Swtor and Rift when they came out but will not give GW2 a look. Maybe its because of the fact that they didnt like Rift and Swtor fizzed for them that they wont even try out GW2 even tho it has no sub fee. But i can tell you that these guys move as a group. And its hard for them to leave a game when their friends are playing another.

    This is another thing WoW has going for it that other games dont, WoW has built strong relationships between ppl and those ppl will find it hard to leave those relationships and usually need to move as a group to a new game. And when someone in that group doesnt want to move on the whole group usually decides to stay.

    Now another thing is the total amount of players playing WoW vs other MMO's. The subs say 10 mil+ but thats not a true account of actually individual account owners. If games like Swtor and GW2 ares selling 2mil+ copies then i think that is what you need to look at when determining market size for NA/EU. Mop sold 2.7 mil in its first week while cata sold 3.3 mil. This clearly shows 600k NA/EU players have left the game between launches. I dont know many players who just sit and play Wotlk or BC or vanilla, so im sure not many were just sitting on Cata waiting to see if MoP was any good. Now sure theirs a few prolly a few thousand who were waiting for paychecks and christmas or b-days but not waiting to see if MoP was good before purchasing.

    I think the MMO market is really small and games like Swtor, Rift and GW2 are actually doing very well. The players on the other hand are getting a false notion that blizzard is doing radical things which i dont think they are. Blizz is basically undercutting the MMO market to fool players into thinking other MMO's arnt worth playing and lots of players are buying it hook line and sinker. I think by the time Blizz launches its next MMO ppl will see that its does numbers closer to Swtor and GW2 in terms of sales and subs will be low.

    Question is will forum posters say that that game is overhyped WoW killer? Or will blizzes buffing of sub numbers backfire on their own product?

  20. #20
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerai View Post
    Clearly you never saw DAoC vs EQ fanboy wars.
    I think that was probably the worse game v. game bashing I've ever seen, and I've been playing MMOs since '99.

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