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  1. #1

    Can anyone give advice to our raid team's rogue? (Logs/armory)

    Hey, so my raid team has been progressing through MSV and HoF normal. We've been together for about 3 weeks now and we're just now starting to get a solid team together (recruiting on this server is a nightmare + a couple raiders have had computer problems, all around holidays... ugh), after having to PuG 2-3 people every week. Anyway, our raid leader and I have been talking about underperforming members and our rogue came up. She and my raid leader have known each other for years so I don't think she will replace her, and I don't exactly want to kick somebody without giving them a chance to improve first. She is okay mechanically (slips up every now and then), but she seems to be having a really hard time DPS-wise on a handful of bosses, particularly Elegon, which is odd because of how mobile rogues are.

    If you have any tips for our other member's/myself, I am open to it, we will all take advice.

    I can't post links as I'm fairly new but the rogue's name is Vadia on US-Bladefist and to find logs go to worldoflogs.com, realms, US-Bladefist, and they're under Rowin.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    First, links....

    WoL: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/6bptfu5j0w3h2i7s/

    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...t/Vadia/simple

    Armory looks fine. I've not played rogue in a while but nothing weird and big stands out. ON the parse (the last Elegon parse) there are two long periods of subpar DPS. Not sure what she's doing there but dps drops in those. Eliminate that and she'd be better. I'm guessing those are times when she's focusing on, er, the Focuses?

  3. #3
    the only issue i can see is that shes not using the preparation talent. This talents gives a free vanish and helps builds up combo points faster

    ex ambush-muti-rapture- slice and dice/vanish ambush muti envenom

    also as far as i follow assassin is weakest pve spec and sub would be the strongest.

    if you go to noxxic . com you can see on there tests that the only rogue spec thats keeping up is sub and combat is quite close to.
    Last edited by nemerus; 2012-12-31 at 08:11 AM.

  4. #4
    Not going combat on garalon, huge expertise overcap, strange gem in helm. Envenom uptime is mediocre across the board, so is rupture uptime. http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ use this for proper gemming\enchanting\reforging\dps expectations.
    if you go to noxxic . com you can see on there tests that the only rogue spec thats keeping up is sub and combat is quite close to.
    There is no point going sub if you cant figure out assasination (by the looks of logs she cant). Also that site is very strange, assasination sims higher then combat right now on single target, i guess there are some random intervals involved which let combat squeze extra cooldowns, shadowcraft is more accurate in dps expectations, atleast in my experience.
    Last edited by hurdurr; 2012-12-31 at 08:21 AM.

  5. #5
    issue is probaly in her dps rotation then.

  6. #6
    rogues are fairly simple nowadays - especially assasination.

    I bet she's not keeping up Rupture no matter what - which is what you want. even if you only have 2 cps or even 1 for that matter - you need a 100% uptime on rupture. the most optimal initiation i'm using is - pot -> stealth -> tricks -> shadowstep -> mutilate 3 times -> rupture -> SnD -> mutilate to 5 cps -> envenom

    you don't really need preparation. shadowstep is really good for the movement. i find it really good in particular on Elegon (by shadowstepping to the add to reset ur stacks ) but its really a matter of flavor as preparation is also a small dps boost by the free mutilate you get from vanishing if you're specced to shadow focus (which your rogue is)

    to her reforging and gemming. she is correct with the itemization. mastery is the best stat, but agility is way better hence why she should never gem 320 mastery gems..

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    First, links....

    WoL: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/6bptfu5j0w3h2i7s/

    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...t/Vadia/simple

    Armory looks fine. I've not played rogue in a while but nothing weird and big stands out. ON the parse (the last Elegon parse) there are two long periods of subpar DPS. Not sure what she's doing there but dps drops in those. Eliminate that and she'd be better. I'm guessing those are times when she's focusing on, er, the Focuses?
    Hi, keep in mind that I am no expert, but with armory we can already see a couple of issues :

    - overcapped expertise : 8.15% should be at most 7.50%, every single expertise point above is 100% wasted (shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com shows me a 760 dps increase just by using more effective reforges)
    - pure mastery gem on helm, 80 agi / 160 mastery is better
    - shado-pan trinket is really not that good for us, even LFR elegon's bottle would be better
    - haste enchant on gloves should be mastery (considering she plays assassination most of the time)

    Regarding logs, elegon can be decieving because there is a lot in play to determine the final damage output of a player. Even though rogues have some mobility tools as you mention, it is actually not that good a fight for rogues because there is a lot of target switching and downtime screwing up our rotation. Now on your long attemps, her damage still looks really low compared to what it should be with her gear.
    I can see that she has sometimes used vendetta on an Empyreal Focus which is obviously not optimal.
    Maybe she is not using shadowstep / sprint optimally to increase uptime on boss (I see 6 shadowsteps and 2 sprints on the 9:30 minutes attempt)?
    On other fights like Feng N, I see that she only had 73% of rupture uptime on the boss, it is really low and should be close to 100% on that kind of boss.

    That's all i can see so far

  8. #8
    Do not follow what nemerus is saying. Simulationcraft.org (and thus Noxxic.com) is wrong on many things: Subtlety is far inferior to Assassination as it stands now. As for Preperation, it's a great CD but wouldn't account for much of the missing DPS. I'd say it's a meager 250 dps bonus at best (on a 6-min fight).

    She's not using potions, or so it seems. I'm not a pro at using WoL, but is she using flasks, too? Those two would surely help.

    As for Garalon, I'm usually Assassination on this fight (have to soak up boss's Cleave and can't always Cleave myself) and break the 100k mark easily. I'd say let her play the Spec she has the best stuff for, especially if she isn't very good at playing her best spec yet.

    What role is she having on Elegon? Making her switch on the Protectors will hurt her DPS more so than the other melees. Is she having trouble killing her Spark?

    You can compare her (de)buffs's uptime on your best Elegon try versus mine a couple weeks back. A few things from these logs:

    - her Rupture uptime is rather low
    - her Vendetta duration is too low (88 seconds for 4 casts, versus 120 sec for 4 casts): she wasn't using the Major Glyph or she's has wasted it on the Sparks/Protectors
    - she has a very low Touch of the Titans uptime (damage buff): are you having difficulties on Phase 2 or is she spending too much time not on the boss?
    - she's not making full use of Anticipation (13 gains on the fight versus 55)
    - she didn't seem to use Shadow Focus at the time of the tries: she should have
    - Recuperate is a serious waste of Combo Points for a pitiful self heal: she has healed for approximately 75% of her max HP at the expense of at most 25 combo points, which could have translated into a serious increase in DPS
    - her Envenom uptime is low

    A lot of these depend on her role on this particular fight, but I hope these comments will help her anyway.

  9. #9
    Her reforges are pretty much terrible. Tell her to use this shadowcraft to reforge. It's a rogue only, and it's very accurate. I'd post a link but I'm kind of limited by post count.

    I'm not someone to analyze logs, but reforging really stood out.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by hurdurr View Post
    Not going combat on garalon, huge expertise overcap, strange gem in helm. Envenom uptime is mediocre across the board, so is rupture uptime. http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ use this for proper gemming\enchanting\reforging\dps expectations.

    There is no point going sub if you cant figure out assasination (by the looks of logs she cant). Also that site is very strange, assasination sims higher then combat right now on single target, i guess there are some random intervals involved which let combat squeze extra cooldowns, shadowcraft is more accurate in dps expectations, atleast in my experience.
    I really disagree, sub is quite easy, easier than assa I'd even argue - anyway, all specs are rather straightforward, there's nothing complex about sub anymore. And yes, though assassination sims higher than sub, there's no reason to keep playing a spec on a casual raiding level that you hate or cannot play to its maximum for whatever reason. My rogue's my alt, raiding only normals on a highly casual level and therefore I'm sub - what's more, I actually enjoy doing it, and I seem a lot better at it too - probably because I'm not constantly wanting to chew my elbow off in frustration at the assassination rotation. At her gearlevel I'd definitely suggest going for whatever spec sims highest, but if she just can't do it, and possibly does better in another spec, I see no reason to keep her stuck in assassination when sub may be way more to her liking.

    In most dps issues, or play issues in general, lies lack of knowledge. I cannot see if she's pooling her energy on those logs, I cannot see much at all on logs on gimmicky fights you gave us, and anyway I'm a terrible log dissecter myself, I always recruit help to get through my own logs... All I see is yes, her damage is low. But looking at basic stuff like, her gemming, her expertise, etc., sort of hints she never read a page about rogues in her life. That or she forgot. Either way make her refresh her knowledge, make her read up on some guides.

    If that doesn't fix her then it's going to be even more basic problems like, uptime in melee range (you'd be surprised how many melee actually forget to stand in melee constantly, take too long to move along with the boss and hit the air for like 2 globals, etc., or else inferior planning of movement (for example Elegon) limiting uptime in melee), movement (clicking/keyboardturning), etc. And this, I can tell you from experience, is incredibly hard if not impossible to fix. That's something she's going to have to do all by herself and it's not going to happen overnight.

    Either way, good luck.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 10:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaquiny View Post
    Her reforges are pretty much terrible. Tell her to use this shadowcraft to reforge. It's a rogue only, and it's very accurate. I'd post a link but I'm kind of limited by post count.

    I'm not someone to analyze logs, but reforging really stood out.
    It's also down at the moment, for me anyway. It's not retrieving my toons.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by nemerus View Post
    the only issue i can see is that shes not using the preparation talent. This talents gives a free vanish and helps builds up combo points faster

    ex ambush-muti-rapture- slice and dice/vanish ambush muti envenom

    also as far as i follow assassin is weakest pve spec and sub would be the strongest.

    if you go to noxxic . com you can see on there tests that the only rogue spec thats keeping up is sub and combat is quite close to.
    Please do not speak if all you can do is give advice on what is a at best minor increase or at worst decrease. Assassination is far from the worst spec of the lot however they are all very similar. If I would rank the specs at this time I would say Assa=Cbt>Sub merely because managing CDs as Sub with 4set is a pain in the arse and both assa and cbt has fights where they shine, this is not to say you have to change spec for every fight. For instance, I do not go combat on Garalon because my gear is for assassination and I can do as much as I would going combat.

    Now, things that can improve.

    *Have her use Shadowcraft for her gemming and reforging.
    *Potions, she did not use any during the fight linked above. If used correctly(Prepot and during BL+CDs) they should be a significant increase.
    *72,8% Slice and Dice uptime on Blade Lord(Which is the one I'm looking at simply because it's a good mix of Patchwerk and movement), should be ~95%.
    *~20% relatively lower uptime on Envenom that on my latest kill(Which is linked below).
    *15 Anticipation gains versus my 52(With somewhat proper management), envenom buff should not be clipped when over 1 sec and any mutilates/dispatch cp generation should go into AP while envenom.
    *No tricks, while a personal dps decrease it is most certainly made up by the receiver.
    *1 Shadowstep, should be used straight after an unseen strike to minimize downtime.
    *No sprint, while it certainly can be so that you have to stay together while running it should not be so when using Leeching poison and feinting properly.
    *53% Rupture uptime, should be atleast above 80% taking into account the running in P2, rupture is our most valued attack, even above SnD and should ALWAYS be priority(SnD should never be on the verge of dropping off anyway).
    Thats all I have to say about that quickly going through that one log. Oh and I'm not allowed to post links so w/e, if you wanted to know what I was comparing too it's EU-Ravenholdt/Renovo

    Now I have to ask why you cast BL so late in the fight? It will completely throw off CDs and procs.

    Anyway, have her check up on elitistjerks[.]com/f78/t130892-assassination_mists/ and perhaps if she has time skim through the pages, there is lots of value in there.

  12. #12
    Better rupture and envenom uptime would help a lot

    Over the Expertise cap(I, personally, go mastery > expertise cap)

    Replace gem in helmet, 320 mastery to 80 agi 160 mastery.
    Replace gem in belt, 80 agi 160 mastery to 160 agi.
    Replace gem in boots, 80 agi 160 mastery to 160 agi.

    Reforges could be improved, reforgelite addon is pretty good.

    Gear isn't very well optimized (Not a lot of mastery)

    Skinning isn't the best raiding profession.

    On Elegon, with feint & CoS we can get quite high stacks before we have to reset them and using Sprint and Shadowstep we can reset them fast. Also don't use Envenom just to then run off and reset your stacks save the 5CP and envenom when you get back on the boss. Higher Envenom uptime = higher DPS
    Last edited by Zyngil; 2012-12-31 at 04:36 PM.

  13. #13
    Using Elegon, pull 1 for an example.

    There are some changes that should be made gear-side (gemming and reforges, as above - and no, don't tell your rogue to switch OUT of assassination for single target DPS; it's on top).

    Talents: keep shadowstep. Staying on target is a FAR greater DPS gain than 1-2 extra mutilate/ambushes per fight.

    To analyze: Details, Buffs Cast, hit the # signs next to Slice and Dice, Rupture, combat readiness(?).

    Slice and Dice: renewed automatically by following the assassination rotation, leaves a 36 second window for renewing (lowest it should go is ~12 seconds remaining).
    Rupture: Should be nearly 100% uptime; source of energy regen and damage. Fully 2 minutes of downtime is REALLY bad for DPS, both from the Venomous Wounds procs, and from missing out on energy.
    Combat Readiness: this isn't a DPS cooldown, and shouldn't be macro'd to DPS cooldowns. Application doesn't really make any sense.
    Trinket: 1.5 min CD, only being used as part of the 3 min CD macro. Should be used twice as often, or better, replaced (but that takes luck more than anything else).
    Deadly Poison: Seems to be bugged on the log; your rogue would not be doing as much DPS on Elegon in the final phase as she is without it. The gap in damage on the poison list is primarily an issue of mastery; getting more should push it higher on her damage list.


    Mechanics/rotation: this is where she's probably losing the most DPS, particularly on Elegon. We had a warlock who had a lot of trouble picking new targets and sticking to them during multi-target situations at one point in DS, and your rogue seems plagued by the same indecision. Finding a way to switch targets faster (she doesn't even attack the first empyreal focus if I'm reading the log right) is going to be key. She may need new or updated UI elements as much as anything else. For her rotation... have her check on some of the links from above, or Coldkil's rogue guide on WoWhead (and EJ when she's further into mechanics). Biggest issues: losing SnD is an unforgivable sin for assassination, as combo points are at a premium and it auto-renews. Rupture is a giant source of damage and energy regen, and should never be down for more than a short moment. All the gaps (especially long ones) point to a bad priority system. It can be renewed in the last 2s before it drops at no loss of uptime like any other dot, and should be renewed during that time.

    After those you can talk about maximizing attacks under envenom uptime or somesuch, but the biggest priority has to be learning the basic rotation and being able to execute it without thinking. Once you can run your rogue rotation without looking at anything but rupture time remaining, CP, energy and CD timers, it'll be a piece of cake to execute it properly while paying attention to fight mechanics and target swapping. Before that, sitting on a dummy for a few minutes to practice is about the best thing you can do.

    A note on anticipation: since we pool energy before using envenom (to get mutilates under the envenom buff) and energy regen at some points is very high, you should be seeing more anticipation stacks from times when rupture is fine, envenom is active, and she still has energy left to mutilate/dispatch while generating anticipation charges.

    There are plenty of other tweaks to see I'm sure, but these are by far the biggest issues.

    Story short: these *SHOULD* be pretty easy fixes, especially if she's new to raiding, so if you've got time to work on it and she fits your team well as a person, I wouldn't think about replacing her, but if she can't get the basic mechanics down you'll end up dragging dead weight eventually.

  14. #14
    Lot of good, simple advice hear. Definitely should stick to assassination which is where she's most comfortable. I will add that throwing a rupture on those energy charges is a really solid way to kill them. Seemed to make it easier. I kill one, tap the edge to remove the buff, and get back on boss.

    Stick to basics, imo. Make sure S&D doesn't go down, keep rupture uptime, try to remain on a target as much as possible.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    Lot of good, simple advice hear. Definitely should stick to assassination which is where she's most comfortable. I will add that throwing a rupture on those energy charges is a really solid way to kill them. Seemed to make it easier. I kill one, tap the edge to remove the buff, and get back on boss.
    Rupture on charges is useless. Bank any Dispatch procs, get a 2-3CP Env off on the Charge ASAP (which should bring it really low) then Dispatch to kill it. I can kill up to charge 8 with this method.

    The biggest DPS boost on Elegon (aside from just doing the rotation optimally) is using ShS for uptime. If you do have to kill Protectors, get on it as it passes by you (Sprint to it if it does not pass by you) and once it's blowing up, ShS the boss.

    During p2, only reset your stacks when you have ShS off CD. It works out like this:

    (5/4 charges, adjust to your charge number with no resets for the last 3 charges)

    P2a:
    1. Kill first Charge, Sprint out to reset, ShS to boss
    2. Kill second Charge, get back on the boss (no reset)
    3. Feint as the third Charges come out, kill third Charge, reset stacks and ShS boss
    4. Kill fourth Charge, get back on the boss (no reset)
    5. Feint as the fifth Charges come out, kill fifth Charge, get back on boss (no reset)
    6. Ignore sixth set and just focus boss, then Sprint out a few seconds after the Charges hit

    P2b:
    1. Kill first Charge, get back on boss (no reset)
    2. Feint as second Charges come out, Kill second Charge, Sprint out to reset, ShS to boss
    3. Kill third Charge, get back on boss (no reset)
    4. Feint as fourth Charges come out, Kill fourth Charge, get back on boss (no reset)
    5. Ignore fifth set and just focus boss, then get out ASAP
    Last edited by Squirl; 2013-01-02 at 07:48 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Rupture on charges is useless. Bank any Dispatch procs, get a 2-3CP Env off on the Charge ASAP (which should bring it really low) then Dispatch to kill it. I can kill up to charge 8 with this method.
    Rupture on Charges gives energy back and allows us to get back on Elegon almost instantly.

  17. #17
    Hola! My name's Nerdluck I'm RL/GM of MBG on BDF. I've been playing a rogue for years 6+ years now and I would be glad to help.

    Like everyone is saying her reforging is all over the place. The way I've been stat prioritizing is as follows.

    Exp Until 7.5% > Hit until 7.5% > Mastery > Crit > Haste

    All of Assassination's dmg is poisons. The higher your Mastery, the higher your poisons will hit. Crit is HUGE because once you get 2pc, which she already has, your Venomous Wounds does 20% more dmg and it also has a chance to crit. Now I've seen on fights like Elegon, 150k+ venomous wound ticks. Haste helps with energy regeneration but that's not really that much of an increase due to the +10 Energy you get from keeping rupture up. Rupture needs to ALWAYS been on the boss, I've been known to refresh rupture either 2-5seconds before it ends or immediately after it falls. Without rupture up on a target you lose HUGE energy regen and that would gimp your dps.

    In the beginning of the xpac, I was doing 5p envenoms only and 5p ruptures, after playing with it awhile I have now been doing 4p envenoms and 5p rupture until 35% then 5p envenoms and always 5p ruptures. I have also made a nice burst rotation that ALWAYS gets me over 150k+ dps at the beginning of EVERY fight. Even 200k+ on Elegon...I'd post a video of it but I am limited so if you were interested in it just send me a message.

    Anyways, if you have anymore questions I am here to help.

    Nerdluck#1271

  18. #18
    Um no, 7.5% hit > 7.5% exp. You don't really "need" 7.5% exp at all either, its more of a personal preference. You should not be doing 4cp envenom ever (ok I guess you should if your SnD is falling off somehow). You have anticipation and you are just shooting yourself in the foot by losing the RS procs if you are using 4cp finishers. Now rupture I can see at 4cp if its already fallen off or putting it on an add or something, but proper planning should allow you to always refresh that at 5cp as well. You also never want to refresh rupture 5 seconds before it ends... you can clip it very slightly but clipping it like that is wasting ticks and causing you to have to apply it more often resulting in less uses of other finishers.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-01-02 at 10:52 PM.

  19. #19
    Sure it's personal preference but whenever you are dodged that's 0 dmg being done resulting in a loss of dps. My 4cp envenoms increase my envenom up time by 10-15%. Anticipation shouldn't be relied on at all...it's there as an utility. If you get the extra charges, great, it shouldn't be incorporated into your dps rotation at all. 4cp rupture will result in less dmg and just not ideal at all.

    My parses show that I actually cast rupture less and envenom more.

    Do you have any logs to back up your claim or just talking out the side of your neck?

  20. #20
    Its not like you would drop the expertise and then get dodged with nothing in return... you get dodged sometimes and do 0 damage but you would pick up mastery or something else instead. I like my expertise, but those who don't have any as assassination certainly aren't doing anything wrong.

    I seriously doubt that you are getting more uptime... you are tossing 20% of your RS procs away doing that. And anticipation should absolutely be relied on... I can't believe you are seriously saying that... it is an amazing tool to ensure that you dont need to clip things early and can reliably use 5cp finishers. If you are any good at all, you are absolutely gaming the anticipation mechanic in your dps rotation (which you are actually doing if you are always using 5cp rupture like you say). 4cp anything is not ideal. Rupture you can use with less though if its down because it will take a considerable amount of time to regen the 55 energy for another mutilate.

    It is mathematically impossible that you are casting rupture less by clipping 5 seconds of your rupture while maintaining the same uptime btw. Thats essentially using a 19 second rupture versus a 24 second rupture and claiming it takes less 19 second ruputres to keep it up for say a 6 minute fight as 24 second ruptures. Not possible. Now certain fight durations could end up with the number being equal, but not less.

    And I honestly don't care what you decide to do as it isn't your thread and you aren't asking for help which probably means you are content with what you are doing, and if you're content, great. The OP is in a raiding guild looking for advice to give their rogue so that they can progress, and speaking as a hm raider, I'm posting to avoid them giving bad advice to their rogue.

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