Thread: Tigereye Brew

  1. #1
    Dreadlord
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    Tigereye Brew

    Hello.

    I tried ot search toe forum for this but didnt find any.

    I wonder when is it best to use Tigereye Brew, is it at 10stacks or eariler?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by yotam View Post
    Tigereye Brew should be used whenever you have 10 stacks of the self-buff it passively applies. It can be delayed slightly so that you can do more burst damage when required.

    Tigereye Brew is a stacking self-buff that you gain a stack of each time you spend 4 Chi. The effect stacks up to a maximum of 10 stacks. When you use Tigereye Brew (an active ability with the same name as the stacking buff), your stacks are consumed, and your damage is increased by 2% for each stack, for 15 seconds.

    According to the most recent testing, attempting to maximise Tigereye Brew usage in one way or another yields little or no DPS benefits. This could, of course, change in the future.

    One thing is certain, however. You must always make sure that you use Tigereye Brew when you reach 10 stacks, so that additional stacks do not go to waste.
    rescue from icey
    this is wrong.

    It does not matter at all at which stacks you actually use tigereye brew it'll work out to be the same dps, its better to use it earlier to make sure u dont waste any stacks and its better to use when for example your trinket procs or your weapon enchants proc, doesnt matter the stacks just use it at that point.

  3. #3
    Yeah: assuming a Patchwerk fight, it doesn't matter what number of stacks you use it at (so long as you're not overwriting the buff, of course), just make sure every stack is used. Syncing it up with trinkets/heroism works well too.

    In practice, you'll find that certain points of the fight will be better than others for its use, such as burn phases or when you know you'll get uninterrupted DPS time on the boss. With experience, you'll learn the best timings for its use.

    Personally I like to use it at the 8-9 stack range: then I never look at my stacks, see 10 stacks, and wonder just how many I've missed out on because I've ignored it for a while. :P

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Polpe View Post
    this is wrong.

    It does not matter at all at which stacks you actually use tigereye brew it'll work out to be the same dps, its better to use it earlier to make sure u dont waste any stacks and its better to use when for example your trinket procs or your weapon enchants proc, doesnt matter the stacks just use it at that point.
    .... what? I don't think you are right because it is relative to the damage you are doing at that time. If you use a 10 stack and receive no crits where as using an 8 stack and getting crits you will do more damage with the 8 stack. You want to time 10 stack TEB with agi increases as much as possible but there is NO REASON to pop it early unless you are sub 10%. What you are stating is correct if variables did not apply to dps and numbers were predictable but that is not the case. You always want 10 stacks of TEB because it increases the TOP END of your damaging abilities which leads to MORE DPS. Just don't hold TEB more than 1 GCD otherwise you are losing stacks.

    Just looked into every other top 10 monk (myself included) and none of which are popping TEB prior to 10 stacks unless it is burn phase (lust) or sub 10%. You sir, are wrong.
    Last edited by sethg; 2012-12-31 at 02:10 PM.

  5. #5
    Dreadlord
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    Yea i been thinking i ts probely best to use it at 8-9 stacks so i wont go over the 10 stacks. But that will probely change in next patch if the changes go true

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by sethg View Post
    You always want 10 stacks of TEB because it increases the TOP END of your damaging abilities which leads to MORE DPS.
    Hm. Let's do some very basic math to investigate this.

    Assume you hit for 10,000 damage with every attack at a rate of one attack per second. Overly simplified, but I'm just getting a point across.

    TEB is a 15 second buff, no matter how many stacks you have.

    Let's assume you generate 1 stack every 4 seconds, which isn't entirely out of the realm of reason (1 second GCD, 2 jabs + 2 BoKs = 1 stack)

    10 stacks = 40 seconds to generate.

    You can either use TEB every 40 seconds, for a 15 second duration and 25 seconds where you don't have it for a 37.5% uptime of a 20% damage buff...

    Or use TEB every 20 seconds, which is at every 5 stacks. This would give you a 75% uptime (15 seconds out of every 20) of a 10% damage buff.

    How do these two options affect the damage I mentioned before?

    So, 10,000 damage on every hit, 1 hit per second. 10,000 DPS.

    With the first option, we'd have a 20% damage boost for 37.5% of the fight. Assuming a 10 minute fight (600 seconds), this would be 225 seconds at 12,000 DPS and 375 seconds at 10,000 DPS.

    (10,000 x 375) + (12,000 x 225) = 3,750,000 + 2,700,000 = 6,450,000 damage done total, or 10,750 DPS average.

    With the second option, it's a 10% damage boost for 75% of the fight. Again, assuming a 10 minute fight, this would be 450 seconds doing 11,000 DPS and 150 seconds doing 10,000 DPS.

    (10,000 x 150) + (11,000 x 450) = 1,500,000 + 4,950,000 = 6,450,000 damage done total, or 10,750 DPS average.

    Oh wait. The numbers are exactly the same.

    So no, trying to get more 'top end damage' won't help at all really. While you should certainly try to sync TEB up with procs, heroism, burn phases etc... Outside of those, all you may as well do is just get the stacks used without overwriting the buff or losing stacks due to being capped for too long.
    Last edited by Kisho; 2012-12-31 at 02:26 PM.

  7. #7
    EDIT: Never mind, forgot the duration isn't effected.

  8. #8
    Yes in theory you are correct, however, in a raid situation it depends on your setting/mechanics/VARIABLES that dictate when and how you use TEB. Find me a top 10 parser that uses TEB at lower than 10 stacks on a consistent basis and I will acknowledge what you are stating as theory craft that translates to WoW Raiding perfectly. In theory this makes perfect sense but it does not work the same way when variables are thrown into the mix.

    @OP: Use TEB @ 10 stacks and line it up as best as possible with CD's and ICD's/procs. It will always line up with at least 1-2 gains.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by sethg View Post
    Yes in theory you are correct
    My theory was the tank brew in mind, duration effected. But seeing as the duration isn't effected I edited it out before you replied.
    Simply put now, the best damage bonus is using it in the best places. Sounds vague but mathematically you gain the same damage whenever you use it, as long as you use every stack. Now HOW to use it is combining it with other buffs and not allowing it to cap out and waste stacks. If a fight allows you to use it every 7 stacks for best burst, then that is the best time to use it.

    Its really quite a well thought out cooldown.

  10. #10
    Ok, taking the math I did before and throwing in a variable: a buff which increases your DPS by 10% which has an uptime of 50%, so 300 seconds of our theoretical raid fight. You are able to line this up with all of your 20% stacks in option 1, but not all of your 10% stacks in option 2. How that breaks down is as follows:

    20% stacks every 40 seconds

    37.5% of the time will have the 20% stack AND the 10% damage. 12.5% will only have the 10% damage. 50% will be unbuffed entirely.

    Calculating multiplicatively, that's 10,000 + 20% = 12,000 + 10% = 13,200

    (13,200 x 225) + (11,000 x 75) + (10,000 x 300) = 2,970,000 + 825,000 + 3,000,000 = 6,795,000 total, 11,325 average



    10% stack every 20 seconds

    50% of the time will have 10% stack AND 10% damage. 25% will have only 10% stack. 25% will be unbuffed entirely.

    Calculating multiplicatively, that's 10,000 + 10% = 11,000 + 10% = 12,100.

    (12,100 x 300) + (11,000 x 150) + (10,000 x 150) = 3,630,000 + 1,650,000 + 1,500,000 = 6,780,000, or 11,300 DPS average.



    So if DPS gains are calculated multiplicatively, then you're entirely correct: waiting for 10 stacks and timing that with buffs, procs, heroism, etc. would provide the most gain (which is the part I agreed with in the first place). If DPS gains are calculated additively however (as in, 20% + 10% = 30% + 10,000 = 13,000 instead of 13,200), then there would be no difference whatsoever in overall DPS. Just trust me on that one, cba to write out all the math again. :P

    There is of course the downside that timing TEB like this would be very advanced play: keeping a close eye on the ICDs of your trinket procs and timing it just perfectly to coincide with attaining 10 stacks of TEB would be quite the feat. This, coincidentally, is exactly why TEB is being changed in 5.2: to bring the skill cap down to more reasonable levels.
    Last edited by Kisho; 2012-12-31 at 02:59 PM.

  11. #11
    Let's simplify this a bit, because "always at 10" and "always with procs" are both wrong answers.

    If
    Tigereye Brew stacks = 10
    Use Tigereye Brew

    Else If
    Procs = yes
    Use Tigereye Brew

    Else
    Do not use Tigereye Brew



    In non-code terms, if TEB is at 10, use it. If TEB is not at 10, but you have procs up, burn your stacks. If TEB is not at 10 and you have no procs, don't use TEB. Of course this can all be fudged for times of needed burst (Heroic Wind Lord Recklessness, Elegon adds or bursting the boss, Titan Gas phases on normal Will, etc etc), but it's a pretty simple process.

  12. #12
    The damage increase is the same whenever you use it (ignoring procs) so why would using it at 10 make any difference than if you used 2x5's?

    Use it only with procs/hero, or use it so you are as high as possible when you ICD's come back up again. Using it randomly when you have 10 will not give you any 'bonus' damage so to speak.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Let's simplify this a bit, because "always at 10" and "always with procs" are both wrong answers.

    If
    Tigereye Brew stacks = 10
    Use Tigereye Brew

    Else If
    Procs = yes
    Use Tigereye Brew

    Else
    Do not use Tigereye Brew



    In non-code terms, if TEB is at 10, use it. If TEB is not at 10, but you have procs up, burn your stacks. If TEB is not at 10 and you have no procs, don't use TEB. Of course this can all be fudged for times of needed burst (Heroic Wind Lord Recklessness, Elegon adds or bursting the boss, Titan Gas phases on normal Will, etc etc), but it's a pretty simple process.
    Wrong. You should try to save up as many stacks as you can for large Proc and CD(trinkets) without losing stacks if possible.
    For example, there is 45 sec till your proc ICD is complete and you are at 6 stack of tiger eye, and assume you build 10 stack per min.
    Then you should use it now, instead of wait until 10 stacks as your code describes.
    Because when proc happens You will have more stack and therefore more damage.
    If use now you will have around 7.5stacks when the ICD is complete.
    If use if like you describe then you will have have around 3.5 stack when ICD is complete.
    Assume no other factor such as boss mech or Bloodlust etc, the first one will win out.

    Since we are talking about CD usage.
    Tigereye brew doesn't increase the damage of Xuen, with that said you probably would use them together because both are use with stat boosts.
    Xuen will scale with you stat dynamically.
    Xuen last 45sec.
    You should try to use your stat boost with Xuen anytime when he is out preferably when he can benefit the full duration.
    Last edited by Exorte; 2012-12-31 at 09:29 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Exorte View Post
    For example, there is 45 sec till your proc ICD is complete and you are at 6 stack of tiger eye, and assume you build 10 stack per min.
    Then you should use it now, instead of wait until 10 stacks as your code describes.
    Invalid since between Dancing Steel, Relic of Xuen, and/or Bottle/Terror, you will not have a 45 second period of time without procs. There should only be a 40 second maximum time between Relic procs..

    If you generate 10 stacks per minute, you won't hit 10 without procs unless you screwed up somewhere.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Invalid since between Dancing Steel, Relic of Xuen, and/or Bottle/Terror, you will not have a 45 second period of time without procs. There should only be a 40 second maximum time between Relic procs..

    If you generate 10 stacks per minute, you won't hit 10 without procs unless you screwed up somewhere.
    Using it during a 'worse' proc is still using it in a subpar situation. His post even explained that: "You should try to save up as many stacks as you can for large Proc and CD(trinkets) without losing stacks"

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Using it during a 'worse' proc is still using it in a subpar situation. His post even explained that: "You should try to save up as many stacks as you can for large Proc and CD(trinkets) without losing stacks"
    Yes but the only proc this tier (or really in the last two expansions) that's worth mentioning that has longer than a 55 second ICD is Terror in the Mists, which is 105 seconds, meaning you'd have to use it every other proc or simply line it up with your other trinket (which will be Relic or Bottle, with 45 and 55 second ICDs respectively) and use it every time that one is up. The situation that Exorte claimed of having to wait longer than a minute for a proc simply doesn't exist. You won't go from 0-10 stacks with no trinket proc, so there's no point mentioning the theoretical possibility.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Yes but the only proc this tier (or really in the last two expansions) that's worth mentioning that has longer than a 55 second ICD is Terror in the Mists, which is 105 seconds, meaning you'd have to use it every other proc or simply line it up with your other trinket (which will be Relic or Bottle, with 45 and 55 second ICDs respectively) and use it every time that one is up. The situation that Exorte claimed of having to wait longer than a minute for a proc simply doesn't exist. You won't go from 0-10 stacks with no trinket proc, so there's no point mentioning the theoretical possibility.
    Actually there is two situation you code would not be the most optimal. One is ICD/CD of trinkets/enchant is too long the other is too short.

    The situation of too long is quite possible before 5.1 when FoF become almost use on CD.
    At least my tiger eye stack rate was faster than my on use trinket (1min) and proc trinkets(55sec) (my weapon ench was windsong). I main Warlock, by the way, not going to spend that much gold on alt, and most normal raiders don't either.
    Since the proc happen about 60 sec, and tigereye stack involves luck with mastery it was quite common to have this problem.
    Now I rarely have this problem, but with mastery involves luck it does happens.

    The situation of too short is quite common now.
    The proc happen too much it is often better to wait for next proc.
    For example, in heroic BiS gear
    0 sec fight starts
    1.5 sec Dancing steel procs.
    3 sec bottle procs.
    6 sec mist procs.
    6 sec Dancing steel procs.
    40 sec Dancing steel procs.
    52 sec bottle procs.
    This is quite real with the RPPM system since the dancing steel doesn't have ICD, and there is two of them with dual wield only mess up timing worse.
    Now in this case you should try to save for the 52 sec bottle proc instead of 40 sec dancing steel proc.

    Most importantly "You should try to save up as many stacks as you can for large Proc and CD(trinkets) without losing stacks if possible." is universal and future proof, if PTR doesn't hit live.
    With that said to be honest no matter how you use tigereye the difference is small really.

    Now I will first try to find out an estimate of how much bottle in DPS while active.
    Then compare the perfect lining up 10 stack with bottle proc and completely no line up, assume no other proc, boss mech, bloodlust,etc.

    Simcraft heroic BiS comparing with bottle and without bottle, 50k iterations.
    with: 122514
    without: 115876
    1.05728537% more with bottle
    Now this is factor in the passive part too, which mean the proc component is even smaller. However, I will continue use this number.
    uptime of buff: 42.1%
    During the buff, damge increase by:
    total increase=downtime*1+uptime*x
    1.0572837=0.579*1+0.421*x
    x=1.1360657
    or 13.60657% more damage

    Assume Bottle proc about every 50 sec(45 sec ICD) and 10 stack tiger eye per 50 sec.
    The difference of lining up and not lining up is:
    lining up:
    30/50*1+15/50*(1.1360657*1.2)+5/50*1.1360657=0.6+0.408983652+0.11360657=1.122590222
    not lining up:
    15/50*1+15/50*1.2+20/50*1.1360657=0.3+0.36+0.45442628=1.11442628
    Difference:
    1.122590222-1.11442628=0.008163942
    roughly 0.0082 or 0.82%

    Gratz on perfectly lining up all the proc, here is 0.82% more damage.
    Ofc the 0.82% doesn't factor in many thing, but the real number is probably under 1% or even less than 0.82%.

    TL;DR: How to use tiger eye? doesn't matter.
    Pretty sure this is what 5.2 tigereye and mastery change is trying to address.
    Last edited by Exorte; 2013-01-01 at 06:25 AM.

  18. #18
    0.82% is more than using 300 stat food instead of 275. It's more than having all blue gems instead of green quality ones. It's more than having double Dancing Steel instead of Dancing Steel/Windsong.

    Of course, your example is wrong again because you wouldn't be waiting 52 seconds to use TEB, you'd have used the 1 or 2 stacks you got at the beginning of the fight on that bottle/mist proc. There's no such thing as too short because using a 10 stack with no procs and even a 1 stack with procs will make a difference with that 2% damage increasing DPS by more during procs than without. You also neglected to mention your other trinket coming back up when the Bottle procs in the last half of the TEB usage or the fact that anyone who cares about such things wouldn't be using the garbage 1 minute CD trinkets anyways.

  19. #19
    I would like to point out that 0.82 is rough estimate of completely not lining up and perfect lining up.
    With both Dancing steel uptime of 42.1%, bottle 42.1%, mist 20%+(forgot). The difference of not try to lining up and execute perfect as the situation allows is much smaller. Assume you don't clip the buff or waste too many stacks.
    Also When I said "TL;DR: How to use tiger eye? doesn't matter." that is for people that only read TL;DR sections not saying that is actually optimal.


    Again my version is "You should try to save up as many stacks as you can for large Proc and CD(trinkets) without any losing stacks."
    Basically fall down to three things:
    1.) as many stacks
    2.) large Procs
    3.) without losing stacks


    you'd have used the 1 or 2 stacks you got at the beginning of the fight on that bottle/mist proc.
    Doesn't matter. At 52 sec you will still more stack and larger proc have more than 40 sec which mean more damage when using at 52sec, assume both method use 1 or 2 stacks at the start of the fight. Bottle is like 2 time the amount of agi of dancing steel.

    The example for reference:
    For example, in heroic BiS gear
    0 sec fight starts
    1.5 sec Dancing steel procs.
    3 sec bottle procs.
    6 sec mist procs.
    6 sec Dancing steel procs.
    40 sec Dancing steel procs.
    52 sec bottle procs.

    There's no such thing as too short because using a 10 stack with no procs and even a 1 stack with procs will make a difference with that 2% damage increasing DPS by more during procs than without.
    I said use it with the bottle proc at 52 sec, what do you mean by "10 stack with no procs?"
    When I say "too short", I meant that procs are happening so often that you can select which proc you are going to wait for, this is likely with the 42.1% uptime of two dancing steel and bottle. If follow your code you would be using TEB on all the procs with low stacks, I saying you should save for the larger proc such as bottle with higher stacks.
    For the most damage you should save for a later and larger proc.
    The basis of the idea is stacking larger damage multiplier that stacks multiplicative yields more damage.


    You also neglected to mention your other trinket coming back up when the Bottle procs in the last half of the TEB usage
    Maybe I was not clear, but I thought it was imply in the first example(too long one) that you want to use bottle/trinket and as many stack at the same time if possible.
    Also I don't know how does this influence the result at all. The point was both the trinket and bottle proc come back every 60 sec and you will stack them with TEB, and within 60 sec is quite possible to get over 10 stacks.
    Let say you got 10 stacks per 45sec.
    With your code you will be using 10 stacks without any proc at the 45 sec mark then 3 stacks at the 60 sec mark when both the bottle proc and trinket use, repeat.
    My version says you should use 3 stacks around 15 sec mark then 10 stacks at 60 sec with the bottle and trinket, repeat.


    the fact that anyone who cares about such things wouldn't be using the garbage 1 minute CD trinkets anyways.
    I was under the assumption that other player acquire loot the same way I do, that is drop or valor.
    Drop involve lot of luck. For example, I have gone one month without any drop I can use before.
    Valor trinket is 1 min one use.
    Totally reasonable assumption, I thought. Since that is what happened to me.

    Again my version is "You should try to save up as many stacks as you can for large Proc and CD(trinkets) without losing stacks if possible."
    Basically fall down to three things:
    1.) as many stacks
    2.) large Procs
    3.) without losing stacks if possible
    Now this doesn't tell you how to actually play, but this should be the best way if you can meet it. It is universal and explain the reasoning which is the idea of getting the largest multiplier to stack .
    By the way, this works with the new system in PTR(5.2), I am pretty sure this is what the dev is try to courage do.
    Last edited by Exorte; 2013-01-02 at 05:20 PM.

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