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  1. #1

    All bosses in a raid heavily tied to lore.

    I know in the old vanilla raids, and TBC, there were a few bosses in a single dungeon that tied into lore, but as far as the new stuff, I'm not too familiar with, so excuse me if I'm wrong here.

    But, does anyone else think a raid would be way more dynamic, and interesting ifevery boss in a single dungeon had their own huge back story, instead of a few, with a few filler bosses?

    I was thinking about some of the raids I've do e, and was going back to look at why their a part of the dungeon, and I've noticed that there are a large amount that are just "generals" or pawns within a story, and they don't really have much written about them, then I got to thinking, if there was something like a 6-8 boss raid, where every boss was a big name of sorts, with heavily detailed lore about them, and why they're there.

  2. #2
    That would have been great. It also would have been great if Blizzard made a new skin for each mob with a different name. I hope you see where I'm going with this.

  3. #3
    Warchief Whisperawr's Avatar
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    Well, MoP is pretty much all new lore being improvised on what they built years ago, from what I see... So they have no really rules confining them when creating bosses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Creotor View Post
    That would have been great. It also would have been great if Blizzard made a new skin for each mob with a different name. I hope you see where I'm going with this.
    I see where you're going with this.

  4. #4
    High Overlord rhapso's Avatar
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    would be a great idea, but i think it would be too much. imagine a raid with 6-8 bosses and everyone of them is a lichking, ragnaros, algalon-kinda figure.
    it would be mind-blowing and sad - because it would be too much.

    I rather have it the way the have it right now: some bosses with huge lore and some lore-fillers, so you don't run out of lore after 3 bosses...
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  5. #5
    Yeah, let's quickly drain the lore of characters.

  6. #6
    Well, you are right. You just showed one of MANY problems of Dragon Soul

    But I'm kind of glad what Blizzard did in MoP. Now, raid-end bosses are abviously tied to the lore, but the smaller ones also have some. In MSV Lorewalker Cho lorewalks around informing you who are you meeting, and quests in Dread Wastes sometimes allow you to aknowledge a boss from HoF. Nice improvements since the lore of Zon'Ozz from DS.

  7. #7
    Well most of warcraft villains of old are dead now. We have a small pool left and we don't want to kill all of the established characters they'll be nobody else to kill. They've tried to make some new enemies to fight in MoP instead of digging up x baddie from warcraft of old, I think it's refreshing. I like the Sha they are very interesting as were the Mantid. Now the Thunder King shows real promise seems like a proper badass he's got scarce lore and back story thus far but what we have is very interesting and I'm sure we'll get to know him better come 5.2 before we kill him.

  8. #8
    I'm not saying to burn out a ton of lore figures in a single raid, but it's not impossible for then to create something that we see happening early on in the background of an expansion, and we get a raid dedicated to tearing down the hierarchy of the faction.

    I'm not saying put Deathwing in a raid with Rag, Al'akir, and so on.

    Just create a solid backstory to an environment the expansion is based on, and one patch be dedicated to destroying the entire group. Kind of like how over time the Trolls have been wiped out, just do it in one patch(not the trolls though)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Joeydivision82 View Post
    I know in the old vanilla raids, and TBC, there were a few bosses in a single dungeon that tied into lore, but as far as the new stuff, I'm not too familiar with, so excuse me if I'm wrong here.

    But, does anyone else think a raid would be way more dynamic, and interesting ifevery boss in a single dungeon had their own huge back story, instead of a few, with a few filler bosses?

    I was thinking about some of the raids I've do e, and was going back to look at why their a part of the dungeon, and I've noticed that there are a large amount that are just "generals" or pawns within a story, and they don't really have much written about them, then I got to thinking, if there was something like a 6-8 boss raid, where every boss was a big name of sorts, with heavily detailed lore about them, and why they're there.

    All the bosses and lore surrounding MC we completely made up for WoW. The elemental plane and the elemental lords were new to the lore when WoW was made. Most of the stuff in Vanilla was fresh lore or greatly expanded upon hints of lore. The expansions expanded existing lore even further.

    I think a whole raid dedicated to important lore character would be neat but at the same time might not make sense unless we are taking on the Dreadlords or the Titans themselves. I cannot think of any other scenario where we could see so many important lore character be bosses and make sense.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Joeydivision82 View Post
    I know in the old vanilla raids, and TBC, there were a few bosses in a single dungeon that tied into lore, but as far as the new stuff, I'm not too familiar with, so excuse me if I'm wrong here.

    But, does anyone else think a raid would be way more dynamic, and interesting ifevery boss in a single dungeon had their own huge back story, instead of a few, with a few filler bosses?

    I was thinking about some of the raids I've do e, and was going back to look at why their a part of the dungeon, and I've noticed that there are a large amount that are just "generals" or pawns within a story, and they don't really have much written about them, then I got to thinking, if there was something like a 6-8 boss raid, where every boss was a big name of sorts, with heavily detailed lore about them, and why they're there.
    I just don't see how that's possible. To me, Ulduar was probably the closest we got to every boss having a real backstory, but that was borne out through a leveling zone that...well, quite frankly, most people skipped. And lore characters are pretty difficult to come by, and typically turn out being the final bosses of their own raids. Heck, look at the Lich King. His two primary cohorts, Kel'Thuzad and Anub'arak, were both already killed...twice! So they brought in the no-names to fill out the roster of Icecrown. I mean, in this upcoming raid, most players aren't even going to know who the Thunder King is, let alone the 12/13 other guys in the raid. Why? Because a lot of people don't read quest text. Some avoid questing altogether.

    So how else can you show it? To me, the most effective way is through the raid itself. I didn't know who Professor Putricide was, but through facing Rotface and Festergut I was able to surmise that he probably builds horrible abominations for the Lich King. Sunwell Plateau explained its bosses quite well. We see Brutallus fighting Madrigosa while we are questing in Quel'danas. Our desire to know "why?" drives the narrative forward. The worst thing Blizzard can do is just having bosses standing there and have us fight them one after another. It should have set-up, both within and outside the raid. Voice acting certainly helps in that department. An active raid setting where things are actually happening, as opposed to a static environment, also works.

    Even then though, there's still going to be filler that is there to be killed and nothing more. You can't always have quantity AND quality.

  11. #11
    I agree that a lead-up starting from outside of a raid makes an encounter much more immersive. If we actually had to face some of the things before we ultimately end up killing them, it would tie them much better to the overall story. While this is something that can also be easily overused if too many bosses get the treatment, with some of them it also barely makes any sense for us not to have even heard of them before.

    What this requires is some more planning ahead from the developers but it would be fun even if only seen now and then. While quests are the most obvious way of introducing characters, it can be anything like how Shannox popped out of nowhere to taunt us at the Molten Front.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekosom View Post
    I just don't see how that's possible. To me, Ulduar was probably the closest we got to every boss having a real backstory, but that was borne out through a leveling zone that...well, quite frankly, most people skipped.
    Let me be Exhibit A. I had no idea that anyone but Yog'Saron and Thorim were known about before walking into the raid.
    Gone until the next expansion.

  13. #13
    Most of current wow lore is made up during WoW lifetime, blizzard got 7 years for it. Pandaren for example, from one hero class in WC3 they made a whole expansion centered around them. Didn't heard bout any Sha earlier either.

  14. #14
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Let me be Exhibit A. I had no idea that anyone but Yog'Saron and Thorim were known about before walking into the raid.
    The Storm Peaks included (directly or indirectly) three of the Watchers: Thorim himself was part of the Sons of Hodir quest chain, and the Sons of Hodir dailies indirectly introduced the player to Hodir. Mimiron was mentioned in at least one little area. Additionally, Razorscale was there, although I don't believe it was ever mentioned that Thorim's proto-drake, Veranus, was Razorscale (Loken captured her and sent her to Ulduar, so it wasn't a difficult connection to make, but still).

    An avatar of Freiya was also present in Sholazar Basin.

    As far as I can remember, none of the rest besides Yogg-Saron appeared or were mentioned anywhere outside Ulduar.

  15. #15
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    I suppose it depends how one gauges lore. I'm personally fine with most bosses having a blurb or two of it in the dungeon journal, or being somewhat familiar faces with a good reason to be opposing us.

    It's pretty hard to go further than that without building up a plethora of characters for the sole purpose of killing them all off. Knowing that half of the named NPCs you interact with in any meaningful way will be killed for loot might get gimmicky and a little too personal. Sometimes it's best to give the bad guys new supporting allies/generals/whatever of their own; it gives the impression that they have a structure and an influence beyond what we've seen on our own limited quests.

  16. #16
    im glad the dungeon finder sometimes adds a little story too a boss.

    but yeah, most bosses are just strong gaurds that we never heard of before.
    in a place like MSV it makes sense, since they were hidden away there for centuries.
    however for HoF not so much since the mantid are attacking the serpent spine at that moment and their strongest forces are just loafing around/in their citadel tree.

  17. #17
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhunter View Post
    however for HoF not so much since the mantid are attacking the serpent spine at that moment and their strongest forces are just loafing around/in their citadel tree.
    It makes sense if you quest in Dread Wastes and do the Klaxxi chain. The mantid treat the Serpent's Spine as a rite of passage for their young. It's not a real invasion. Thus, only the weakest forces attack the wall. Additionally, the mantid empress is consumed by fear, so it makes sense that she'd want her most powerful soldiers in her citadel protecting her.

    That said, three or four of the bosses of HoF do appear in Dread Wastes, if only briefly.

  18. #18
    well all of them (except queen) can appear in the dreadwastes during the klaxxi bombing daily.

    though overall, im kinda dissatisfied with the time you got with the HoF bosses outside the raid.
    but then agian its always been like this.
    and with HoF i atleast get why we go there. unlike BWD, the only reason we went there is cause DW took back his childerens heads. neferian doesnt even show up anywhere outside of it.
    atleast cho'gall made enough appearances and al'akir buried an entire tol'vir city under the sand urging us to go there. i lacked that feeling in BWD.

  19. #19
    What exactly do you mean when you say 'backstory'?

    Do you mean there should just be some detailed lore about them written somewhere, or that every boss is an involved part of the questing/world experience that we meet several times during play which has a long buildup until we finally fight them in a raid?

  20. #20
    Considering that Blizzard are pushing players into dailies/scenarios where they can expand on the existing lore, it's not too much to ask for references to the bosses you're about to kill in the raid. Like all of these troll bosses, say the dailies for the new zone are setup in a fashion similar to Landfall, you could have different bosses showing up at various stages of rep with an accompanying quest. Or you could just have a treatment similar to Molten Front with different bosses showing up each day that you have to work against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    What exactly do you mean when you say 'backstory'?
    Gonna go out on a limb and guess the OP doesn't want a dragon soul-esque boss lore treatment, where we had no clue who they were or why they were present. Apparently, N'zoth had two Generals who fought against Yogg-Saron and C'thun's Generals. We knew of General Vezax, but where did these two come from? Was Vezax the only General in YS's forces or have some of these Generals died? There wasn't any expansion on what was said, other than a brief description that really said very little.

    Even if it's something like the Brotherhood of Light's efforts to instruct the 7th Legion garrison at Wintergarde Keep, you had Commander Eligor Dawnbringer telling a bunch of soldiers who each of the bosses in Naxx were. For DS, could of had someone like Chromie or Brann Bronzebeard researching old tablets that describe who these ancient foes were, similar to the Wintergarde Keep scenario. It's just more than a generic "He's a bad guy. Kill him" descriptions that are given.
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2012-12-31 at 02:05 AM.
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