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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    (B) it is not permissible for members of the Kirin Tor to aid the Alliance/Horde against the opposite faction and Jaina is wrong for doing so herself.
    She didn't aid the Alliance, she was protecting a Kirin Tor possession, so only helping the Kirin Tor. If the bell had gone to Silvermoon or even Org, she surely would have proctected it the same way.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Rédempteur View Post
    She didn't aid the Alliance, she was protecting a Kirin Tor possession, so only helping the Kirin Tor. If the bell had gone to Silvermoon or even Org, she surely would have proctected it the same way.
    She would not have. Had the Bell been in ORgrimmar, she'd have teleported there herself, blasted Garrosh with a fireblast (and likely incinerated half the city, which she was going to do until Thrall stopped her), and taken it to Alliance lands.

    Jaina is an Alliance-aligned leader of a neutral faction (which has ties to both sides). That in itself is hypocritical - It's alright for one half of the faction (and its' leader) to support a group, but the other half of the faction can't support their allies' enemies? Granted, the enemy is Garrosh, but the action itself is still hypocritical.

    To put it in real world terms, using a fictional scenario (open minds here, people):

    The leader of the country is Russian. His country is evenly divided between Russian ancestry and Chinese ancestry. China and Russia are in a war, Russia discovers some big bad weapon, hides it to prevent China from getting it. The leaders' country is neutral, but the leader helps Russia anyways. After some Chinese-aligned citizens steal the weapon and give it to China, he flips his shit and basically commits mass genocide, killing out essentially half his country.

    It's the same thing we have in WoW. The leader is supposed to be neutral; he himself breaks the neutrality first by helping and aligning himself with Russia. A small group (which the larger Chinese supporters have no knowledge about) takes the weapon, also breaking neutrality. The leader prosecutes the group, and the larger whole, because of this.

    Even if the Chinese emperor (A.K.A. Garrosh) is a brutal tyrant hell-bent on world domination, the leader still is a hypocrite. I'm not saying Jaina was wrong for helping the Alliance (coming from a Horde player), but she still was: A.) A hypocrite for helping the Alliance and flipping her shit when Horde supporters did the same, and B.) a genocidal asshole. She never stopped and asked questions, she just locked or killed everyone. Imagine if you were a Sunreaver: No clue WTF is going on, you're all buddy-buddy with Jaina one day, the next she's throwing you in a prison and killing your family because of something radical terrorists supporting the faction you're supporting did something behind the hypocrite's (A.K.A. Jaina's) back.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    She would not have. Had the Bell been in ORgrimmar, she'd have teleported there herself, blasted Garrosh with a fireblast (and likely incinerated half the city, which she was going to do until Thrall stopped her), and taken it to Alliance lands.

    Jaina is an Alliance-aligned leader of a neutral faction (which has ties to both sides). That in itself is hypocritical - It's alright for one half of the faction (and its' leader) to support a group, but the other half of the faction can't support their allies' enemies? Granted, the enemy is Garrosh, but the action itself is still hypocritical.

    To put it in real world terms, using a fictional scenario (open minds here, people):

    The leader of the country is Russian. His country is evenly divided between Russian ancestry and Chinese ancestry. China and Russia are in a war, Russia discovers some big bad weapon, hides it to prevent China from getting it. The leaders' country is neutral, but the leader helps Russia anyways. After some Chinese-aligned citizens steal the weapon and give it to China, he flips his shit and basically commits mass genocide, killing out essentially half his country.

    It's the same thing we have in WoW. The leader is supposed to be neutral; he himself breaks the neutrality first by helping and aligning himself with Russia. A small group (which the larger Chinese supporters have no knowledge about) takes the weapon, also breaking neutrality. The leader prosecutes the group, and the larger whole, because of this.

    Even if the Chinese emperor (A.K.A. Garrosh) is a brutal tyrant hell-bent on world domination, the leader still is a hypocrite. I'm not saying Jaina was wrong for helping the Alliance (coming from a Horde player), but she still was: A.) A hypocrite for helping the Alliance and flipping her shit when Horde supporters did the same, and B.) a genocidal asshole. She never stopped and asked questions, she just locked or killed everyone. Imagine if you were a Sunreaver: No clue WTF is going on, you're all buddy-buddy with Jaina one day, the next she's throwing you in a prison and killing your family because of something radical terrorists supporting the faction you're supporting did something behind the hypocrite's (A.K.A. Jaina's) back.
    That's the thing, it looks like it's common practice on Azeroth. From Eitrigg to Hamuul, to the Knights of the Ebon Blade, all have ties to neutral organizations and the two superpowers on the planet.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Really? You are just going to deny everything that is implied on Jaina's words?
    You’re implying things that just aren’t there.

    No one could teleport to Darnassus, therefore the Sunreaver(s) used Dalarani portals to enter inside Darnassus. You are acting like "outside Darnassus" is some neutral no-man's land without connection to the city itself. It's the World Tree of Teldrassil, the nation of the Night Elves.
    So tell me, how far out did Jaina’s anti-teleportation spell extend? What is the effective radius? I mean, if you’re willing to extend this (still unsupported) spell beyond the city itself, where do you stop? Teldrassil? The water around Teldrassil? Darkshore? Ashenvale? There was no need for Jaina to go beyond the city in which the bell resided. Indeed, the Sunreavers’ location outside the city indicates they chose that location because they could get no closer to the bell with simple teleportation; otherwise, why not just open up a portal right next to the bell, snatch it, and be on your way? Why the need to stealth through the whole city? They already knew where the Divine Bell was (reference the Horde quest “Insertion”); the problem was penetrating the defensive magics and snagging it without getting caught.

    The fact, again, plain simple, the Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran resources to enter on Darnassus for Horde's purposes, breaking the nation's trust.
    The fact is, plain and simple, if Jaina hadn’t engaged in defending the Alliance against the Horde, the Sunreavers would not have had to counter her efforts. She got a taste of her own medicine and didn’t like it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 07:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rédempteur View Post
    She didn't aid the Alliance, she was protecting a Kirin Tor possession, so only helping the Kirin Tor.
    A Kirin Tor possession? Um, no, dude. The Divine Bell belonged to the Mogu and the Night Elves took it shortly before the Horde took it. It had no history of belonging to the Kirin Tor.

    If the bell had gone to Silvermoon or even Org, she surely would have proctected it the same way.
    I really don’t think there’s anyone that believes this. She’s vehemently against the Horde and has absolutely no interest in seeing Garrosh have possession of yet another powerful artifact of war, especially after he destroyed her home of Theramore with one. There should be no doubt by anyone about who Jaina’s allegiances lie with between the Horde and Alliance.
    Last edited by Jediguy; 2013-01-20 at 12:05 AM.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    So tell me, how far out did Jaina’s anti-teleportation spell extend? What is the effective radius? I mean, if you’re willing to extend this (still unsupported) spell beyond the city itself, where do you stop? Teldrassil? The water around Teldrassil? Darkshore? Ashenvale? There was no need for Jaina to go beyond the city in which the bell resided. Indeed, the Sunreavers’ location outside the city indicates they chose that location because they could get no closer to the bell with simple teleportation; otherwise, why not just open up a portal right next to the bell, snatch it, and be on your way? Why the need to stealth through the whole city? They already knew where the Divine Bell was (reference the Horde quest “Insertion”); the problem was penetrating the defensive magics and snagging it without getting caught.
    Is Teldrassil common place for Blood Elves now? That's what I'm trying to say, they infiltrated Darnassus as Horde members and used the Dalarani portals which they never had access. They abused the order and organization of Dalaran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    The fact is, plain and simple, if Jaina hadn’t engaged in defending the Alliance against the Horde, the Sunreavers would not have had to counter her efforts. She got a taste of her own medicine and didn’t like it.
    Two wrongs don't make one right. And, yet again, Jaina acted on her own power, the Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran to reach the Bell.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Is Teldrassil common place for Blood Elves now? That's what I'm trying to say, they infiltrated Darnassus as Horde members and used the Dalarani portals which they never had access. They abused the order and organization of Dalaran.
    You assert that these mages normally couldn’t teleport anywhere close to Darnassus, but that’s not true, is it? You want me to believe that a Blood Elf (known for their magic knowledge) and member of the Kirin Tor (again, known for their magic knowledge) couldn’t figure out how to open portals or teleport anywhere but capitol cities of a specific faction? I remain unconvinced. Again, the very fact that the Sunreavers opened a portal outside the city and not right next to the bell inside Darnassus suggests they had the knowledge to open a portal somewhere other than a capitol city – in a location neither the Alliance nor citizens of Dalaran would feel the need to open a portal in traveling to Darnassus.

    Two wrongs don't make one right.
    So you admit Jaina was wrong?

    And, yet again, Jaina acted on her own power, the Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran to reach the Bell.
    Again, no such proof exists to support this assertion.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    You assert that these mages normally couldn’t teleport anywhere close to Darnassus, but that’s not true, is it? You want me to believe that a Blood Elf (known for their magic knowledge) and member of the Kirin Tor (again, known for their magic knowledge) couldn’t figure out how to open portals or teleport anywhere but capitol cities of a specific faction? I remain unconvinced. Again, the very fact that the Sunreavers opened a portal outside the city and not right next to the bell inside Darnassus suggests they had the knowledge to open a portal somewhere other than a capitol city – in a location neither the Alliance nor citizens of Dalaran would feel the need to open a portal in traveling to Darnassus.
    All we got is Jaina's words. Nothing else. So, until proven wrong, Jaina's words are the fact. Everything else is assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    So you admit Jaina was wrong?
    Did I ever implied otherwise? This is not black or white.

    All that I'm trying to say is that Jaina did not used Dalaran and the Sunreavers did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    Again, no such proof exists to support this assertion.
    Jaina's words. You have no proof to tell otherwise.

  8. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Two wrongs don't make one right. And, yet again, Jaina acted on her own power, the Sunreaver(s) used Dalaran to reach the Bell.
    I really don't get this.
    All the time it's: "Jaina acted on her own."
    But at the same time it's: "the Sunreavers did...", while that was just Fanlyr sucking up to Garrosh.

    Aethas is as anti-Garrosh as one can be, he even tried to convince Jaina of their innocence.
    The Sunreavers even hold Garrosh just as responsible for what happened as Jaina, because his servant caused this mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rédempteur View Post
    She didn't aid the Alliance, she was protecting a Kirin Tor possession, so only helping the Kirin Tor. If the bell had gone to Silvermoon or even Org, she surely would have proctected it the same way.
    A Kirin-Tor possession?
    It's in Darnassus, in the hands of the Kaldorei, so they can study this weapon.
    In my opinion that should not be seen as 'in possession of the Kirin-Tor'.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I really don't get this.
    All the time it's: "Jaina acted on her own."
    But at the same time it's: "the Sunreavers did...", while that was just Fanlyr sucking up to Garrosh.

    Aethas is as anti-Garrosh as one can be, he even tried to convince Jaina of their innocence.
    The Sunreavers even hold Garrosh just as responsible for what happened as Jaina, because his servant caused this mess.
    Sunreaver(s), one or many. It's just because 5.2 have more to tell about what really happened.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    All that I'm trying to say is that Jaina did not used Dalaran and the Sunreavers did.
    We do know that the one Sunreaver did use Dalaran but we don't know if Jaina did or didn't, nothing is said in that regard.

  11. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Sunreaver(s), one or many. It's just because 5.2 have more to tell about what really happened.
    I know, but you seem to be insinuating that the faction as a whole is to blame.
    Even when we have their leader literally saying that they are innocent to what happened.

    I think Jaina acted too hasty.
    When things would have resolved by talking, they would still be working together.
    But now that she went on a purge, allowing the Silver Covenant to kill them, it's too late to mend those wounds.

  12. #692
    Let me get this straight. I'm talking to the three people here named Kangodo, Jediguy and Aquamonkey. Are you telling to all the rest that The Horde with the Sunreavers are completely innocent and Jaina is the big bad villain here? Do you think the Kirin Tor put her in leading position just to help the Alliance own the Horde?
    Last edited by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus; 2013-01-20 at 12:54 AM.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    We do know that the one Sunreaver did use Dalaran but we don't know if Jaina did or didn't, nothing is said in that regard.
    Well, the magical wards were hers and she was the one dealing with the ones that tried to teleport there.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 12:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I know, but you seem to be insinuating that the faction as a whole is to blame.
    Ah, no. The event was a complete mess for both sides, from betrayal to lack of action (Aethas not actively rooting out the spies), to reckless and bad-handling from Jaina.

    But it's a bit hard to talk more when 5.2 spoilers do answer to some of the questions.

    One thing is for sure, this is pure shades of grey, there is no good and evil here.
    Last edited by Tauror; 2013-01-20 at 12:59 AM.

  14. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    One thing is for sure, this is pure shades of grey, there is no good and evil here.
    That has been my opinion of the Horde and Alliance for the last 7 years :P
    I think both Jaina and the Sunreavers are innocent, but both handled the situation in the worst way possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    Let me get this straight. I'm talking to the three people here named Kangodo, Jediguy and Aquamonkey. Are you telling to all the rest that The Horde with the Sunreavers are completely innocent and Jaina is the big bad villain here? Do you think the Kirin Tor put her in leading position just to help the Alliance own the Horde?
    It comes down to this:
    1) It's hypocrite to accuse someone of breaking neutrality because they helped the Horde, when you helped the Alliance yourself.
    2) The Sunreavers and Silver Covenant were both never neutral, aiding the Horde/Alliance all the time.
    3) The Sunreavers were not part of this treason, they were innocent and it was done by Fanlyr Silverthorn (an agent of Garrosh)
    4) Before electing someone as the leader of your neutral faction, you should do a background check. Trying to destroy the faction-capital should make you unsuitable for the job.

    And yes, the Sunreavers had nothing to do with this.
    It was done by Fanlyr, who knew this would effect the Sunreavers, but who was an agent of Garrosh.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    4) Before electing someone as the leader of your neutral faction, you should do a background check. Trying to destroy the faction-capital should make you unsuitable for the job.
    They knew it. It was even part of the prophecy that Krasus left. The same that led to Jaina being elected.

  16. #696
    Tauror it's pointless to argue. They have made up their mind.

    Yes you are right. The Sunreavers are innocent, the Horde is a faction of misunderstood creatures and Garrosh is a War Hero. Jaina is a war criminal and the Alliance are a bunch of Warmongers. We got it already.
    Last edited by Darth-Pinkaminus-Piekus; 2013-01-20 at 01:18 AM.

  17. #697
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    That has been my opinion of the Horde and Alliance for the last 7 years :P
    Debatable but this is the wrong thread for that ^_^

    Either way Silvermoon should have it's own academy for magic users. It would make a lot of sense. Yes I'm actually suggesting Blood Elves/Horde get something. I'm clearly insane and licking Garrosh's boots.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    Debatable but this is the wrong thread for that ^_^

    Either way Silvermoon should have it's own academy for magic users. It would make a lot of sense. Yes I'm actually suggesting Blood Elves/Horde get something. I'm clearly insane and licking Garrosh's boots.
    I thought they already did in the Blood Elven magisters led by Rommath.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  19. #699
    When I played it I thought "Woah, This is really dark for WoW". I automatically felt sympathy for the Blood Elves, they have shown no real signs of aggression to anyone since they joined in BC (Talking newer lore, not warcraft etc). Aethas doesn't ask smug or try attack Jaina where as Jaina goes around taking part in genocide.

    After all of it, My thoughts on the matter are that I pray they give the Blood Elves their just reward, revenge.

    Oh and I hope Vareesa dies. The whore.

  20. #700
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    It's not genocide Tosh. >_>
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

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