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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    This is getting really old. She caught him watching over the portal. There is no way he did not know what was going on. Even if he did nothing himself (and we are not sure of that) he gave tacit approval by letting it happen. He watched it go down. He got caught red handed. There is no "presumption of Aethas' guilt", she caught him.
    What portal? There is one to Domination Point (where the mission is sent from) and a second to Silvermoon (where the Bell is sent). Neither of which should incriminate Aethas as he was never directly involved. Fanlyr opens the Domination Point portal, and he is the sole Sunreaver you see involved.
    Last edited by DFu4ever; 2013-01-24 at 08:44 PM.

  2. #902
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Uhm, some of those are just mages who left the Kirin Tor to pursue other "goals". I haven't read up on all of them, but have they really all betrayed and harmed the Kirin Tor. I mean siding with Malygos certainly serves the purpose of fighting mortal mages, but have they pulled something on Dalaran before they left? What has Kael done that could be considered traitorous? Didn't he just leave?

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    This is getting really old. She caught him watching over the portal. There is no way he did not know what was going on. Even if he did nothing himself (and we are not sure of that) he gave tacit approval by letting it happen. He watched it go down. He got caught red handed. There is no "presumption of Aethas' guilt", she caught him.
    Complete bullshit. Aethas isn't even there when you first port in. He only shows up after Jaina screams his name and murders 3 Blood Elves. I suggest you look at that part of the quest again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    And this is all moot anyway. Regardless of if you think her evidence was circumstantial or not, we as outsiders seeing both events know she was correct. A contingent of Sunreavers did use Dalaran to slip into Darnassus. Aethas did know about it.
    There is nothing in any of the quests to suggest that Aethas knew about it. Fanlyr answers directly to Garrosh. Fanlyr and Aethas never interact in any of the quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    As to the 'slaughter' being cannon, I really think this is interesting that you take it that way. Rommath says X and suddenly it is 100% true and he knows it for fact. It is cannon. There was no embellishment, no mistaken information, etc, etc. Yet when Jaina says Aethas was guilty, you are all 'No, she could not possibly know that. She didn't have any evidence. She is over reacting and emotional." What if Rommath's 'most' was really just a couple traitors. He is condemning the entire organization. What about all the Silver Covenant agents that had nothing to do with it? I could say Rommath is just emotional and pissed and blaming an innocent organization for the act of a few. See how that works? Goose meets gander.
    Rommath is there in Dalaran while this is happening. He had just finished liberating Sunreaver citizens in the sewers from Silver Covenant forces. You can see for yourself the Silver Covenant torturing Blood Elves. The Silver Covenant hate the Sunreavers and always have. It is consistent with their character to go around killing Blood Elves.

    When Jaina says Aethas is guilty, there is nothing to back it up. Everything about Aethas' history and character show he is against Garrosh and supports Dalaran and Jaina.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  4. #904
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Uhm, some of those are just mages who left the Kirin Tor to pursue other "goals". I haven't read up on all of them, but have they really all betrayed and harmed the Kirin Tor. I mean siding with Malygos certainly serves the purpose of fighting mortal mages, but have they pulled something on Dalaran before they left? What has Kael done that could be considered traitorous? Didn't he just leave?
    They sided with the enemy and actively hunted every other mage that wasn't in their group, hence the name mage hunter. Kael did not betray them initially he was more or less pushed over the edge, though I put him there since he laid waste to most of the Kirin Tor in Outland.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Uhm, some of those are just mages who left the Kirin Tor to pursue other "goals". I haven't read up on all of them, but have they really all betrayed and harmed the Kirin Tor. I mean siding with Malygos certainly serves the purpose of fighting mortal mages, but have they pulled something on Dalaran before they left? What has Kael done that could be considered traitorous? Didn't he just leave?
    Kel'thuzad betrayed Kirin Tor law by researching forbidden magic, for which he was expelled.

    While Jaina was former Kirin Tor at the time, she broke into the Kirin Tor and stole books on the Focusing Iris to perform an attack that was condemned by the Council.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They sided with the enemy and actively hunted every other mage that wasn't in their group, hence the name mage hunter. Kael did not betray them initially he was more or less pushed over the edge, though I put him there since he laid waste to most of the Kirin Tor in Outland.
    Well I guess thats kind of traitorous but its a whole different situation from what the Sunreavers have done. If they left Dalaran and openly opposed them, that really brings it down to, they want to fight us so let's fight back. And thats what they did. There were Kirin Tor quests to go in to the Nexus and to the Oculus to fight those guys. So what's the criticism here.

  7. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Well I guess thats kind of traitorous but its a whole different situation from what the Sunreavers have done. If they left Dalaran and openly opposed them, that really brings it down to, they want to fight us so let's fight back. And thats what they did. There were Kirin Tor quests to go in to the Nexus and to the Oculus to fight those guys. So what's the criticism here.
    So if the involved Sunreavers would have come out and attacked ,it would have been not as bad? Don't be ridiculous.

    The mage hunters betrayed their former comrades, they wanted to kill them all, better sooner than later and Crevan nearly succeeded by smashing Dalaran into a mountain side.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  8. #908
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Well I guess thats kind of traitorous but its a whole different situation from what the Sunreavers have done. If they left Dalaran and openly opposed them, that really brings it down to, they want to fight us so let's fight back. And thats what they did. There were Kirin Tor quests to go in to the Nexus and to the Oculus to fight those guys. So what's the criticism here.
    IMO, it's weak writing to involve the Sunreavers the way they did. The whole time you interact with Fanlyr, he is directing the Reliquary and there is no mention of him being a Sunreaver. He's just a random Blood Elf working under Garrosh. Is it even established that he's a mage? Fanlyr being a Sunreaver is shoehorned in during the Darnassus operation to serve the plot of war, war, war.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  9. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Kel'thuzad betrayed Kirin Tor law by researching forbidden magic, for which he was expelled.

    While Jaina was former Kirin Tor at the time, she broke into the Kirin Tor and stole books on the Focusing Iris to perform an attack that was condemned by the Council.
    I know what Kel did, but thats a very different thing from what the Sunreavers did.

  10. #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I know what Kel did, but thats a very different thing from what the Sunreavers did.
    He betrayed the trust of the Kirin Tor by studying necromancy in their very city, he was a member of the six and would ultimately use his knowledge to bring the northern Kingdoms to their knees.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  11. #911
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    So because there are traitors among the Kirin Tor that means that they shouldn't be punished/thrown out?
    No, it means Kirin Tor deserved the same treatment. Double standarts, Alliance's favorite. Kirin Tor maes siding with the enemy and unleashing hell on their own past kin if fine, yet Blood Elves must ahnd out anyone suspicious enough of their kind to the merciful judgement of the Alliance.
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    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  12. #912
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    So if the involved Sunreavers would have come out and attacked ,it would have been not as bad? Don't be ridiculous.

    The mage hunters betrayed their former comrades, they wanted to kill them all, better sooner than later and Crevan nearly succeeded by smashing Dalaran into a mountain side.
    It's not about whether it's bad or not. It's simply a different situation and hard to compare. The Sunreavers are a part of Dalaran and abused their neutrality to help the Horde. Those mage hunters and whatnot left Dalaran and sided with the enemy. Dalaran holds no authority over them anymore, and they were at open war with them anyway, so there was really not much to decide. The Sunreavers however were a part of Dalaran and they had to decide what to do with them. I'm sure that if the mage hunters had secretly worked for Malygos while being part of Dalaran, they would've thrown them out/killed them/imprisoned them. I still don't understand what the issue is.

  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    It's not about whether it's bad or not. It's simply a different situation and hard to compare. The Sunreavers are a part of Dalaran and abused their neutrality to help the Horde. Those mage hunters and whatnot left Dalaran and sided with the enemy. Dalaran holds no authority over them anymore, and they were at open war with them anyway, so there was really not much to decide. The Sunreavers however were a part of Dalaran and they had to decide what to do with them. I'm sure that if the mage hunters had secretly worked for Malygos while being part of Dalaran, they would've thrown them out/killed them/imprisoned them. I still don't understand what the issue is.
    The fact is a huge chunk of the Kirin Tor decided to betray the Order and sided with Malygos, having every intention of wiping the Kirin Tor out. Not matter how you look at it, it is treachery plain and simple.If all sunreavers are not to be trusted because of a few how the hell do you intend to trust the Kirin Tor if dozens if not hundreds of them defected to Malygos?
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  14. #914
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He betrayed the trust of the Kirin Tor by studying necromancy in their very city, he was a member of the six and would ultimately use his knowledge to bring the northern Kingdoms to their knees.
    Yes, but he was not affiliated with any subgroup inside Dalaran, like the Sunreavers or the Silver Covenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    No, it means Kirin Tor deserved the same treatment. Double standarts, Alliance's favorite. Kirin Tor maes siding with the enemy and unleashing hell on their own past kin if fine, yet Blood Elves must ahnd out anyone suspicious enough of their kind to the merciful judgement of the Alliance.
    The same treatment as who? The Sunreavers? Should the Kirin Tor throw out the Kirin Tor?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 10:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The fact is a huge chunk of the Kirin Tor decided to betray the Order and sided with Malygos, having every intention of wiping the Kirin Tor out. Not matter how you look at it, it is treachery plain and simple.If all sunreavers are not to be trusted because of a few how the hell do you intend to trust the Kirin Tor if dozens if not hundreds of them defected to Malygos?
    Huge chunk? Those 5 people you listed?

  15. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Huge chunk? Those 5 people you listed?
    Remember all those mooks you killed while leveling in Northrend? They count too.

  16. #916
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Yes, but he was not affiliated with any subgroup inside Dalaran, like the Sunreavers or the Silver Covenant.
    He was a member of the six, which makes this actually a tad worse if such a high ranking member throws everything away for power, how can you trust the rest won't do the same, look at Kael another former member of the six that fell from grace.

    The same treatment as who? The Sunreavers? Should the Kirin Tor throw out the Kirin Tor?
    In fact if they really wanted to get rid of any chance of treachery they should have disbanded and formed a new organization, picking their members with extreme care, alas they failed to do so.



    Huge chunk? Those 5 people you listed?
    Those were named ones, but you know those mage hunter npc practically all over Northrend, most of them were members of the Kirin Tor.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  17. #917
    The issue is that at the moment The Horde's Image on Azeroth due to Garrosh and his lackeys is damaged. They do not feel proud of their faction. They want to find something bad on the Alliance to cling to in order to say << Hey we are all the same>> even though clearly in MOP the two factions are not the same. Another issue is that the Alliance started to really fight back and they do not like it at all.

  18. #918
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    The issue is that at the moment The Horde's Image on Azeroth due to Garrosh and his lackeys is damaged. They do not feel proud of their faction. They want to find something bad on the Alliance to cling to in order to say << Hey we are all the same>> even though clearly in MOP the two factions are not the same. Another issue is that the Alliance started to really fight back and they do not like it at all.
    You cannot dismiss that the Kirin Tor has quite the history of treachery to say otherwise is just foolish, those are facts. Jaina says so herself in the Alliance cutscene. So considering that, it is quite strange to see that all are Sunreavers are purged, while in the past those guilty were punished and the rest worked something out. Kicking the Sunreavers out was logical and the right thing to do but considering the past actions of the Kirin Tor and Jainas involvement it is a tad hypocritical.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  19. #919
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He was a member of the six, which makes this actually a tad worse if such a high ranking member throws everything away for power, how can you trust the rest won't do the same, look at Kael another former member of the six that fell from grace.



    In fact if they really wanted to get rid of any chance of treachery they should have disbanded and formed a new organization, picking their members with extreme care, alas they failed to do so.





    Those were named ones, but you know those mage hunter npc practically all over Northrend, most of them were members of the Kirin Tor.
    Ok then, there were a lot of people who betrayed the Kirin Tor. But there were a lot of Twilight cultists inside Stormwind and Orgrimmar when the Cataclysm began. That's because sometimes there are traitors. But that has nothing to do with the whole Sunreaver conflict as this is about a subgroup inside the Kirin Tor and how you treat the group when one or a couple of them betray you.

    Disband and reform because there were traitor? What would that achieve? Would other potential traitors then just evaporate? Should Alliance and Horde also disband because they at some point had traitors?

  20. #920
    Enlighten me please about the treacheries you mention to see what kind of treacheries those are.

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