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  1. #921
    The Alliance should have kicked out everyone in the Silver Hand as soon as Arthas became the Lich King.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  2. #922
    Over 9000! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    You cannot dismiss that the Kirin Tor has quite the history of treachery to say otherwise is just foolish, those are facts. Jaina says so herself in the Alliance cutscene. So considering that, it is quite strange to see that all are Sunreavers are purged, while in the past those guilty were punished and the rest worked something out. Kicking the Sunreavers out was logical and the right thing to do but considering the past actions of the Kirin Tor and Jainas involvement it is a tad hypocritical.
    What are you trying to argue here? That people are scumbags? Or that the Kirin Tor attracts an unnatural number of traitors? Even if so, what does that mean.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 11:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Alliance should have kicked out everyone in the Silver Hand as soon as Arthas became the Lich King.
    Well you know the Silver Hand kind of kept fighting Arthas and the Scourge, that's a wee bit of a distinction.

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    Enlighten me please about the treacheries you mention to see what kind of treacheries those are.
    He just spent the entire page doing exactly that. The very same page you just posted on.
    Last edited by DFu4ever; 2013-01-24 at 10:14 PM.

  4. #924
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Ok then, there were a lot of people who betrayed the Kirin Tor. But there were a lot of Twilight cultists inside Stormwind and Orgrimmar when the Cataclysm began. That's because sometimes there are traitors. But that has nothing to do with the whole Sunreaver conflict as this is about a subgroup inside the Kirin Tor and how you treat the group when one or a couple of them betray you.
    How so? The Sunreavers are members of the Kirin Tor just as much as those traitors were, with the difference there were far fewer traitors among the Sunreavers.

    Disband and reform because there were traitor? What would that achieve? Would other potential traitors then just evaporate? Should Alliance and Horde also disband because they at some point had traitors?
    It would give them at least some form of control and they could really rely on each other and as I said no faction is trustworthy, not a
    single one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    Enlighten me please about the treacheries you mention to see what kind of treacheries those are.
    Do you even read the thread or do you just pop in to make a statement? If you know so little about Dalaran lore you should stay out of this.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-01-24 at 10:11 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  5. #925
    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    The issue is that at the moment The Horde's Image on Azeroth due to Garrosh and his lackeys is damaged. They do not feel proud of their faction. They want to find something bad on the Alliance to cling to in order to say << Hey we are all the same>> even though clearly in MOP the two factions are not the same. Another issue is that the Alliance started to really fight back and they do not like it at all.
    The funny thing is that most of the main villains in Azeroth were former Alliance or members of races in the Alliance.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-01-24 at 10:11 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #926
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The funny thing is that most of the main villains in Azeroth were former Alliance or members of races in the Alliance.
    Not really the horde was just one big mess back in the good old days, not to mention the Alliance shouldn't be held responsible for Illidan or the Eredar, because those were never part of the Alliance to begin with.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Not really the horde was just one big mess back in the good old days, not to mention the Alliance shouldn't be held responsible for Illidan or the Eredar, because those were never part of the Alliance to begin with.
    The Alliance is supposed to have the "virtuous" races. But they are as flawed as any of the Horde races.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  8. #928
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Alliance is supposed to have the "virtuous" races. But they are as flawed as any of the Horde races.
    Well their past contradicts much of what they are and stand for today, one could argue they learned from the past, still they try quite hard to live up to their standard, while orcs in particular tend to throw honor overboard at some point.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  9. #929
    Over 9000! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    How so? The Sunreavers are members of the Kirin Tor just as much as those traitors were, with the difference there were far fewer traitors among the Sunreavers.



    It would give them at least some form of control and they could really rely on each other and as I said no faction is trustworthy, not a
    single one.




    Do you even read the thread or do you just pop in to make a statement? If you know so little about Dalaran lore you should stay out of this.
    BUT THE SUNREAVERS ARE A GROUP. If there are individuals who do stuff you can deal with them individually, but if they have no affiliation to any subgroup inside the Kirin Tor, what do you want to do. Throw out random people?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 11:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Alliance is supposed to have the "virtuous" races. But they are as flawed as any of the Horde races.
    Individuals are flawed, but in the Horde, the Forsaken, and as of late the orcs as a group are a bit more than just flawed. I'm fine with the other races of the Horde. Well the Goblins are wackos, but can you really take them seriously?

  10. #930
    My apologies. I found those treacheries. Let's see.

    Krevan betrayed both sides to align with Malygos. Dealt by the Kirin Tor.

    Kel Thuzad left the Kirin Tor to follow the Cult of the Damned and the Scourge was formed later by Arthas. Turned against both sides.

    Kaelthas Sunstrider the Blood Elf if I recall. Turned against everyone but left the Kirin Tor before that.

    Telestra betrayed the Kirin Tor and sided with Malygos against both sides.

    Urom did the same as the Inquisitor also.


    So no those betrayals are completely out of topic. Those either left the Kirin Tor or Betrayed the Kirin Tor and turned against Azeroth.
    The Sunreavers on the other hand betrayed the Kirin Tor by helping Garrosh on his war against the Alliance which is against the Neutral Policy of the Kirin Tor.

    Do you now understand the difference of those betrayals and the Sunreaver one?

  11. #931
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    BUT THE SUNREAVERS ARE A GROUP. If there are individuals who do stuff you can deal with them individually, but if they have no affiliation to any subgroup inside the Kirin Tor, what do you want to do. Throw out random people?
    The sunreavers are Kirin Tor just as much as the rest, no not throwing random guys investigate who is responsible or is an accomplice.

    Again what I am arguing is now which would have been done ideally, though it is clear Jaina had no time or wasn't in the mood to start her own investigation and as such did what was necessary, still if you compare it to how Dalaran operated in the past it is somewhat hypocritical that the sunreavers don't get the chance those before them got.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    Do you now understand the difference of those betrayals and the Sunreaver one?
    The sunreavers intended to steal an artifact for the horde, without compromising their standing in the Kirin Tor, while the others turned against their former friends and allies,intending to destroy Dalaran for good.

    It does not damage my main point in the least, which is the Kirin tor have never been that trustworthy to begin with and were far more lenient in the past, why the sunreaver receive such a hard treatment is not how they used to handle things.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-01-24 at 10:34 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Individuals are flawed, but in the Horde, the Forsaken
    I will once again point out that while being extreme in how they handle warfare, the Forsaken are also the only one of the races whose territory is constantly under active assault by both the Alliance and Kirin Tor, although at this point the threats at Southshore and Ambermill have been mostly dealt with. The Forsaken literally fight a war on their own turf because some douchebag humans want to kick them out of their homes.

    They have the best justification of any of the races in the game to be brutal to their enemies, because their enemies whole rationale for invasion is that they don't recognize their right to exist.

  13. #933
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    I will once again point out that while being extreme in how they handle warfare, the Forsaken are also the only one of the races whose territory is constantly under active assault by both the Alliance and Kirin Tor, although at this point the threats at Southshore and Ambermill have been mostly dealt with. The Forsaken literally fight a war on their own turf because some douchebag humans want to kick them out of their homes.

    They have the best justification of any of the races in the game to be brutal to their enemies, because their enemies whole rationale for invasion is that they don't recognize their right to exist.
    Lets be honest here the forsaken are a bunch of ruthless bastards, doing whatever they please, if they can get away with it. But that is to be expected from them.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Lets be honest here the forsaken are a bunch of ruthless bastards, doing whatever they please, if they can get away with it. But that is to be expected from them.
    They are ruthless, that is without question. But at the same time the Alliance's stance on them from moment one has been to consider them abominations unworthy of occupying the territory they once lived in. So basically the Alliance are effectively pushing for the genocide of the Forsaken. So really, why should the Forsaken hold back in defending themselves within their own territory?

  15. #935
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFu4ever View Post
    They are ruthless, that is without question. But at the same time the Alliance's stance on them from moment one has been to consider them abominations unworthy of occupying the territory they once lived in. So basically the Alliance are effectively pushing for the genocide of the Forsaken. So really, why should the Forsaken hold back in defending themselves within their own territory?
    They don't have to hold back, but that does not change that they are ruthless bastards, as justified as they might be. Objectivity is key here ;P
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  16. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They don't have to hold back, but that does not change that they are ruthless bastards as justified as they might be. Objectivity is key here ;P
    I agree. They are one enemy that will not hold back if you mess with them. The Eastern Kingdoms should be happy that the Forsaken seem content to stay within their borders.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Mails-Prowers View Post
    So no those betrayals are completely out of topic. Those either left the Kirin Tor or Betrayed the Kirin Tor and turned against Azeroth.
    The Sunreavers on the other hand betrayed the Kirin Tor by helping Garrosh on his war against the Alliance which is against the Neutral Policy of the Kirin Tor.

    Do you now understand the difference of those betrayals and the Sunreaver one?
    Kirin Tor stopped being neutral as soon as they sent military aid to Theramore.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Jediguy View Post
    And yet no one can provide any evidence or proof showing how the Sunreavers "used Dalaran" in a way Jaina did not. Keep yelling it until you're blue in the face - it's not going to make it any less false.
    The Kirin Tor were meant to be neutral. The Sunreavers weren't. Even after Theramore Jaina insisted on the Kirin Tor remaining neutral.

    It's not rocket science.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 11:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Kirin Tor stopped being neutral as soon as they sent military aid to Theramore.
    The mages in Silverpine were apparently an oversight.

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Kirin Tor stopped being neutral as soon as they sent military aid to Theramore.
    Agreed there.

    The especially ironic part is that Aethas was the one who advocated going to Theramore's aid. Shows how far Jaina has degraded, I think.

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    Agreed there.

    The especially ironic part is that Aethas was the one who advocated going to Theramore's aid. Shows how far Jaina has degraded, I think.
    Probably because he knew that it was about to be attacked and wanted some of the Kirin Tor to die.

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