Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Deleted]

I am guessing you are implying about Sylvanas requesting Silvermoon troops for Northrend? I don't see that as anything more than saying "Okay, we've been helping you, time to help the rest of the team." It isn't really blackmail, it's an expectation that allies have of one another. If you aren't going to support the alliance, then why the hell is the alliance going to keep supporting you?

Lor'themar and Rommath may not have liked having to commit troops, but the request was perfectly reasonable in context.

It was blackmail, Lor'themar + Rommath really disliked it, go read the short story on the subject avaliable at blizzard site.

Here's a quote:

"How can you do this?" Lor'themar registered the desperate anger in Rommath's voice with a sort of dull surprise; the grand magister seemed still to believe somewhere that Sylvanas could be made to negotiate.

"This is blackmail!" he continued, trembling in his fury, the knuckles of his fists paling as he clenched them around his staff. "It was you who pleaded to aid us in the first place! We never asked for your assistance; you gave it of your own free will! How can you call yourselves our allies in one breath and hold our lands for ransom in the next?"

[Aquamonkey]

So the Sunreavers weren't responsible for stealing the Bell and didn't break their neutrality?

Even if it were people doing it in the Sunreaver's name, it's a difference that makes no difference. Now none of them can be trusted.

1 Sunreaver was responsible for stealing the Bell.

Oh really? So, if police raid a club or bar where drugs are being distributed they take the time to check everyone present to see if they think they are involved before arresting them? Wait, no. They arrest everyone present. Sometimes there might be a few that just stopped in for a drink and knew nothing about it. Guess what, nobody would be screaming foul.

1. The police need a warrant or probable cause that the club/bar is a den of drug dealers. They can't raid the club just because they found random patron drugged out in his car across town.

2. Once they have a warrant/probable cause, the people in the club/bar are IN THE PLACE WHERE ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES ARE HAPPENING. The police aren't busting down the homes of every patron to ever step into the club/bar.

Jaina knew there was a real danger to letting the Sunreavers just continue. They proved that if Garrosh pushed them they would do what he wanted. What if Garrosh decided he wanted the Focusing Iris again. Should she have waited until they stole that too? Or some other magical item? Or maybe just used Dalaran as a staging ground for a mass assault on Stormwind?

Garrosh can't touch Sunreavers in Dalaran. The only Sunreavers he can intimidate are ones roaming outside of the city.

Do you even know how the Focusing Iris was stolen in the first place? It was intercepted in transit to the ocean. It is currently sitting in the most secure location on Azeroth: The vault of the Kirin Tor. It's heavily fortified and guarded by some of the most powerful mages on the planet.

One person and a small party of people are easy to move through the city because it is INCONSPICUOUS. People roll through Dalaran all the time in small parties on their way to wherever. Rolling an army for a mass assault on Stormwind would be VERY NOTICEABLE.

Would it have been ideal to detain just those that posed a threat. Sure, who where they? This is a case of a hard choice. Do you arrest everyone who might pose a risk and maybe sweep up innocents as well? Or do you take your time and risk a fortified military force sitting in the city willing to do whatever Garrosh asks?

So now it's so hard to find spies? Throughout this thread people were jumping on Aethas because he couldn't find any.

Let me add, Lor'themar blamed Garrosh as much as anyone. Know what that means? He knew using Dalaran like they did was wrong. He knew there were possible consequences. But, they allowed Garrosh to pressure them into it. So, now they have to live with it.

Theron had nothing to do with the Bell being stolen. Once he had the bell, he gave it to Garrosh because he had no other choice. But he was not involved with the assault on Darnassus.

Horde losing something is new, I get it. It is a bit of a shock. But seriously, stop trying to make it something more then it is.

Alliance conducting torture and slaughter of innocent people is something new, I get it. It is a bit of a shock. But seriously, stop trying to make it something less than it is.

[Deleted]

Yes though given the history of the Kirin Tor, the treachery was hardly surprising.




No they did not, but magi are ambitious people that strive for power and are intertwined into intrigues and secrecy, which is a breeding ground for treachery.

Why is it not surprising? Should they always expect everyone to be a traitor because they once had traitors? Should every group assume that? And if she had to expect betrayal from the Sunreavers, that really only shows that she should'Ve thrown them out earliers.

Yes I'm sure mages seek power, and it can be tempting in certain situations to stab people in the back for it, but the Alliance has mages. The Horde has mages. And not only mages. They have warlocks, death knights and all kinds of people that could be tempted by power or other things.

[Deleted]

Silverpine is part of Lordaeron, the Forsaken's homeland. Any Alliance there were pretty much invading (with the assistance of the Kirin Tor at Ambermill, I might add.

The Forsaken were once human, but not all citizens of Lordaeron became undead. By your logic the Scarlet Crusade would have a claim to Lordaeron if they were born there.

The southern half of Silverpine was controlled by humans and supported by Dalaran yes. Maybe they were from Lordaeron too?

I will say it again: undeath is a curse. It should not be spread. If you consider that a legitimate form of life then you are fooling yourself.

Undeath needs to be cured, not spread.

And the Forsaken were ordered to attack Gilneas because Garrosh wanted a port city in the Eastern Kingdoms, or something along those lines.

Same difference. The Forsaken attacked Gilneas without provocation. The Gilneans did nothing. The Forsaken weren't just defending themselves here. In fact, by invading Gilneas the Forsaken drove the worgen straight to the Alliance.

One of the reasons they joined the Horde was because Sylvanas offered them support in their fight against the Scourge. The Horde actually helped them in their time of need, you see.

The Blood Elves sided with the Horde. Whether it was through Sylvanas is irrelevant. By remaining a part of the Horde the Blood Elves become complicit in anything the Horde does.

1 Sunreaver was responsible for stealing the Bell.

And now none of them can be trusted. Dalaran was used to steal the Bell and that cannot be tolerated.

[Deleted]

Silverpine is part of Lordaeron, the Forsaken's homeland. Any Alliance there were pretty much invading (with the assistance of the Kirin Tor at Ambermill, I might add.

And the Forsaken were ordered to attack Gilneas because Garrosh wanted a port city in the Eastern Kingdoms, or something along those lines.



One of the reasons they joined the Horde was because Sylvanas offered them support in their fight against the Scourge. The Horde actually helped them in their time of need, you see.

What if the Alliance dude is a citizen of Lordaeron who never died and never left? Isn't it his home as well?

Interesting point: If the Kirin Tor are unscruplous mages who only seek power and are more than willing to betray their own, what does that say about the Horde who has bred some of the most notable betrayers in Warcraft lore? Gul'dan, Ner'zhul, Grom Hellscream, Putress and Varimathras, Kael'thas? Yes, Kel'thuzad was once a citizen of Dalaran and a member of the Kirin Tor. So was Kael'thas I might add. Both summoned the Legion. Arthas betrayed his own and joined the Scourge, and Illidan is known as the Betrayer for obvious reasons, but Gul'dan was all on his own responsible for the Horde's defeat in the Second War and Ner'zhul forsake his people in its darkest hour with the Alliance in Draenor and tore the planet apart as he fled from it. Grom Hellscream consumed demon blood a second time to destroy Cenarius, then fought for the Legion. He redeemed himself, yes, but a right does not wipe a wrong. Or in Grom's case several wrongs.

Both factions are despicable, and that is the entire purpose. The Alliance has never been good and cuddly (Garithos?) and I can't fathom why they have been seen as such in WoW - oh wait, Blizzard turned the Alliance into the passive faction only reacting to what the Horde does, making the Horde aggressive (read: evil) and the Alliance defensive (read: good). To the ddetriment of both sides. This story they are running now is more interesting and hopefully they will be able to equalize the factions in terms of darkness.

[Verdugo]

What if the Alliance dude is a citizen of Lordaeron who never died and never left? Isn't it his home as well?

He is free to defend his home from superior forces.

[Deleted]

He is free to defend his home from superior forces.

Then all question of whether someone has a natural right to something or not is thrown out of the window. All that matters is whether someone is strong enough or not. You don't need to find justification then.

[Verdugo]

Then all question of whether someone has a natural right to something or not is thrown out of the window. All that matters is whether someone is strong enough or not. You don't need to find justification then.

You dont, I dont know why everyone keeps talking about laws, rights and other crap.

[Combatbutler]

Why is it not surprising? Should they always expect everyone to be a traitor because they once had traitors? Should every group assume that? And if she had to expect betrayal from the Sunreavers, that really only shows that she should'Ve thrown them out earliers.

If she had thrown them out earlier what would that change? Nothing, sooner or later another ambitious mage will betray the Kirin Tor it is only a matter of time.

Yes I'm sure mages seek power, and it can be tempting in certain situations to stab people in the back for it, but the Alliance has mages. The Horde has mages. And not only mages. They have warlocks, death knights and all kinds of people that could be tempted by power or other things.

History shows that magi are a secretive sometimes backstabbing bunch, what makes you believe that this changed.

[Aquamonkey]

And now none of them can be trusted. Dalaran was used to steal the Bell and that cannot be tolerated.

Just throw out all the times the hundreds of Sunreavers have helped Dalaran.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Same difference. The Forsaken attacked Gilneas without provocation. The Gilneans did nothing. The Forsaken weren't just defending themselves here. In fact, by invading Gilneas the Forsaken drove the worgen straight to the Alliance.



The Blood Elves sided with the Horde. Whether it was through Sylvanas is irrelevant. By remaining a part of the Horde the Blood Elves become complicit in anything the Horde does.

The amount of hypocrisy in these statements amazes me.

The blood elves (the Gilneans) were being attacked by the Night elves and dwarves (invaded by the Forsaken), thus driving them towards the Horde (Alliance). The blood elves (Worgen) are now complicit in anything the Alliance does.

By your logic, now the worgen are responsible for anything the Alliance does. So, it's alright to go towards the Alliance if the Horde is attacking, but if the Alliance is attacking, you're going to blame the Blood elves for siding with those that helped them?

[Haven]

The amount of hypocrisy in these statements amazes me.

The blood elves (the Gilneans) were being attacked by the Night elves and dwarves (invaded by the Forsaken), thus driving them towards the Horde (Alliance). The blood elves (Worgen) are now complicit in anything the Alliance does.

By your logic, now the worgen are responsible for anything the Alliance does. So, it's alright to go towards the Alliance if the Horde is attacking, but if the Alliance is attacking, you're going to blame the Blood elves for siding with those that helped them?

Like I said, Alliance favors double standarts, because they do the same shit for the sake of Greater Good, unlike us filthy barbarians and criminal scum that do the same shit because it has to be done. Kind of reminds me of Tau Empire - they'd do anything for the sake of Greater Good, including gradual extermination of indigenous population through creating unlivable conditions for them, and they explain anything they do as self-defense or acting for the sake of Greater Good.

[Norgannon the Dreamweaver]

That is not true, the prowess of a mage is mostly based on their knowledge about the arcane, humans and elves are about equal though elves live far longer as such tend to take their time, which means if they study as hard as their human counterpart, they could advance just as fast.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 09:53 AM ----------



Blue dragons are mortal and no race on Azeroth is on par with them concerning the arcane arts. Give humans a few more centuries of excessive magical use and they will become addicted to it, just as the highborne did.



So if Draenei have a long life to study magic they are powerful, but if elves do it they are not, that is a nice doublestandard you have there.
Well it is established lore that they have powerful magi, but they utterly fail to live up to it I haven't heard of a single Draenei mage worth noting.



Their knowledge is outdated, which is why they are outmatched.



Weird Alleria acted like a blood elf before they came to be, spiteful ,hate fueled, arrogant and willing to do everything for her nation.

Lovely ignorance (uneducated). You are ignoring, and going against canon-given lore. Plus, you're not thinking in common-sense.

It's not even worth explaining why you're wrong, since it seems no matter how correct I am, there is always somebody to say "LOLNOPE".

Btw, Draenei don't need singular examples to show off their talent. We have proof enough due to the fact that Sargeras himself was bewildered by their natural affinity. Again, this is common sense, something you seem to ignore.

Highbourne culture is not outdated either. Their knowledge spans back to the old empire, which was a time of magic supreme. (Possibly greater than the Kirin Tor) So no, they are not outmatched.

I can go on for pages (is it even worth doing it?) explaining the advantages of both the Alliance and the Horde, and I can assure you that the Alliance is superior with magic.

[Combatbutler]

I can go on for pages (is it even worth doing it?) explaining the advantages of both the Alliance and the Horde, and I can assure you that the Alliance is superior with magic.

You can't read can you? I did not state that the Horde is equal in magic than the Alliance that would be foolish, I merely stated humans and elves are about equal in magical prowess and that Draenei have shown very little in that regard. Sargeras wasn't bewildered he saw their potential.

Please do me a favor and provide canon sources for each of your claims.

Lovely ignorance (uneducated). You are going against lore. You are ignoring canon-given lore. Plus, you're not thinking in common-sense.

That is rich coming from you.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I can go on for pages (is it even worth doing it?) explaining the advantages of both the Alliance and the Horde, and I can assure you that the Alliance is superior with magic.

The Alliance are not (at least, not with Arcane).

The Kal'dorei looked down upon Arcane magic (until recently), and those that use it are largely inexperienced (even the experienced ones, the Highbourne, are a lot weaker than the Sin'dorei - Will elaborate more on this later). In essence, they are "noobs," and prone to mistakes, as shown in the Horde's Azshara questline, wherein the player and a few Blood Elves make the Kal'dorei mages look extremely bad.

The Draenei are more focused on Light-based magics now than they were thousands of years ago, thanks to the Naaru. While they are exceptionally strong with those, there are not many examples of Draenei being very good magi (Like you said, those magi turned to Sargeras (as magi sometimes do, in a bid for power)).

The humans have a few examples of strong magi. However, many of these were Guardians, the result of a few mages pooling their power into one mage. Medivh and his mother are 2 of these examples. Jaina is another. Other than that, you will not hear about many.

The Horde, on the other hand, has both the Forsaken and the Sin'dorei. The Forsaken have whatever magi were killed and raised, both human and elven, allowing them to further increase their power by having more time to learn whatever magics they wanted.

And now, the Sin'dorei. They have many examples of powerful mages. Hell, their entire society is based upon magic. Elves are, in general, stronger than the other races when dealing with magical matters (Other than those few exceptions, such as Jaina, and even then, she is outclassed by a few). Furthermore, they are backed by the powerful Sunwell, recently restored, granting them further power. Elves have a longer lifespan and, while humans learn much in the limited time they have, elves can continue learning after humans perish.

Really, how can you possibly suggest that humans are more powerful with magic than a race who's entire society uses it every day, for even the most menial tasks?

[Norgannon the Dreamweaver]

You can't read can you? I did not state that the Horde is equal in magic than the Alliance that would be foolish, I merely stated humans and elves are about equal in magical prowess and that Draenei have shown very little in that regard. Sargeras wasn't bewildered he saw their potential.



That is rich coming from you.

Rich? No. Nessesary. I have seen you babbling against lore one too many times on so many forums.

No, YOU'RE the one who can't read. You're proving my point that humans and elves are equal. I'm just saying that humans achieve more in a shorter amount of time, making up for their short lifespan.

The Draenei DID bewilder Sargeras (look up the word 'bewilder' and come back to me), he was suprised by their natural affinity for magic. Just read their history... Sargeras wouldn't just pick -any- random race to become his -chief- minions.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 11:49 PM ----------

The Alliance are not (at least, not with Arcane).

The Kal'dorei looked down upon Arcane magic (until recently), and those that use it are largely inexperienced (even the experienced ones, the Highbourne, are a lot weaker than the Sin'dorei - Will elaborate more on this later). In essence, they are "noobs," and prone to mistakes, as shown in the Horde's Azshara questline, wherein the player and a few Blood Elves make the Kal'dorei mages look extremely bad.

The Draenei are more focused on Light-based magics now than they were thousands of years ago, thanks to the Naaru. While they are exceptionally strong with those, there are not many examples of Draenei being very good magi (Like you said, those magi turned to Sargeras (as magi sometimes do, in a bid for power)).

The humans have a few examples of strong magi. However, many of these were Guardians, the result of a few mages pooling their power into one mage. Medivh and his mother are 2 of these examples. Jaina is another. Other than that, you will not hear about many.

The Horde, on the other hand, has both the Forsaken and the Sin'dorei. The Forsaken have whatever magi were killed and raised, both human and elven, allowing them to further increase their power by having more time to learn whatever magics they wanted.

And now, the Sin'dorei. They have many examples of powerful mages. Hell, their entire society is based upon magic. Elves are, in general, stronger than the other races when dealing with magical matters (Other than those few exceptions, such as Jaina, and even then, she is outclassed by a few). Furthermore, they are backed by the powerful Sunwell, recently restored, granting them further power. Elves have a longer lifespan and, while humans learn much in the limited time they have, elves can continue learning after humans perish.

Really, how can you possibly suggest that humans are more powerful with magic than a race who's entire society uses it every day, for even the most menial tasks?

You're not a worthy opponent, compared to Combatbutler. It's not even worth proving you wrong. Come back to me when you learn common sense.

Btw, don't ignore lore for your own fanboyish ways you belf, LOL. I'm merely assuming, but most people are like that.

[Aquamonkey]

The Draenei DID bewilder Sargeras (look up the word 'bewilder' and come back to me), he was suprised by their natural affinity for magic. Just read their history... Sargeras wouldn't just pick -any- random race to become his -chief- minions..

Completely wrong. The EREDAR impressed Sargeras with their magic. The Draenei actively sought to hide their magic and use as little as possible in order to hide from the Legion. Magical affinity, like anything else, atrophies from 25,000 years of disuse.

[Norgannon the Dreamweaver]

Completely wrong. The EREDAR impressed Sargeras with their magic. The Draenei actively sought to hide their magic and use as little as possible in order to hide from the Legion. Magical affinity, like anything else atrophies, from disuse.

The draenei ARE Eredar, thank you very much.

And no, read the novels, the draenei are still very much in tune with magic. (just as much as the light. compared to humans)

[Lighto73]

Rich? No. Nessesary. I have seen you babbling against lore one too many times on so many forums.

No, YOU'RE the one who can't read. You're proving my point that humans and elves are equal. I'm just saying that humans achieve more in a shorter amount of time, making up for their short lifespan.

The Draenei DID bewilder Sargeras (look up the word 'bewilder' and come back to me), he was suprised by their natural affinity for magic. Just read their history... Sargeras wouldn't just pick -any- random race to become his -chief- minions.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 11:49 PM ----------

You're not a worthy opponent, compared to Combatbutler. It's not even worth proving you wrong. Come back to me when you learn common sense.

Btw, don't ignore lore for your own fanboyish ways you belf, LOL. I'm merely assuming, but most people are like that.

The Draenei did have a natural affinity for magic. But that was a long time ago, their have been ZERO notable DRAENEI spell casters. Also, yes the humans are powerful, but they are not as powerful as the Blood Elf casters in general, we have examples of powerful humans (Khadgar/Jaina/Rhonin) but the entire BE culture is engulfed in magic.

On top of the above, you also have the Forsaken, which have the same powers as they did in life, giving you many UD spellcasters that equal that of their human counterparts. To say that the Alliance has an edge in magic is outright wrong.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 06:58 PM ----------

The draenei ARE Eredar, thank you very much.

And no, read the novels, the draenei are still very much in tune with magic. (just as much as the light. compared to humans)

Please cite which novel to read, I only remember the priest Draenei from that Knaack book having any role in the novels.

[Aquamonkey]

The draenei ARE Eredar, thank you very much.

And no, read the novels, the draenei are still very much in tune with magic. (just as much as the light. compared to humans)

Yes, the Draenei are Eredar. Draenei is not a race. They are a faction of Eredar that refused Sargeras. Sargeras was attracted to the Eredar's reckless use of magic. He was not attracted to the Draenei because they didn't exist yet.

Just because they are attuned to magic doesn't mean they can wield it as effectively as they did 25,000 years ago. They have spent that 25,000 years covering up their use of magic and using as little as possible.