Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[Darth-Piekus]

It's not a glassball. It's what will happen. The Horde are Shattered that they will need the help of the Alliance to clear that mess, the Alliance is more united than ever, Garrosh has challenged every Neutral Faction in the game so much that they already started going Alliance (Kirin Tor anyone) and the Horde's reputation with the rest of Azeroth is shattered. It's natural that they will be in a dangerous position. Of course they won't eliminate them. They will probably spare them but with some heavy terms of surrender. After all they will need their help for the Burning Legion after.

After all The Alliance exists because of the Horde (stated in the quest for The Black Morass) and not the opposite.

[rowaasr13]

Yes, in an all-out war like the Horde/Alliance one your first concern is to minimize your own casualties.
And really.. You need to work out your Horde-issues.

But there's no all-out war for Alliance. Only Horde's lol-misunderstood-killer-but-honorful-inside orcs do it. And, yes, you do have concern to minimize another side civilian casualties in war too. Unless you're absolutely sure you'll never lose or any other 3rd party won't come and whip your bloodthirsty ass with war-trials after everything is done. Orcs seems to believe that mercy extended to them after 2nd war is maximum extent of their punishment and their free card to do what they fuck want. They about to be proven wrong, AGAIN.

[Combatbutler]

It's not a glassball. It's what will happen. The Horde are Shattered that they will need the help of the Alliance to clear that mess, the Alliance is more united than ever, Garrosh has challenged every Neutral Faction in the game so much that they already started going Alliance (Kirin Tor anyone) and the Horde's reputation with the rest of Azeroth is shattered. It's natural that they will be in a dangerous position. Of course they won't eliminate them. They will probably spare them but with some heavy terms of surrender. After all they will need their help for the Burning Legion after.

After all The Alliance exists because of the Horde (stated in the quest for The Black Morass) and not the opposite.

We are talking about the warcraft universe, there will most likely be no reparations, not to mention it would be impossible for either side to control the other, since neither have enough troops for an occupation force.

[Darth-Piekus]

Are you sure you are playing the same game cause I haven't seen the Horde so shattered in the whole Warcraft History. Let's see. On the one side we have Garrosh, his Korkron, most of the Orcs, The Goblins, some Rogue Sunreavers and Some Forsaken. On the other side we have The Blood Elves who haven't decided if they will rebel, the Tauren and the Trolls. So yeah. Completely Shattered.

I remember a post back then in which was mentioned that the Neutral Factions would never rebel against Garrosh and his Horde. I also remember another post in which was mentioned that the Kirin Tor would never rebel against the Horde. Guess what. Both happened. The Kirin Tor were the first. Many more are on the way.

The Horde reputation is really shattered. Just tell that to every npc in the game when they are making a comment about the war. The first thing they say is The Horde, The Horde, The Horde and then Garrosh.

If those facts are not enough consider this then. The Horde will ask for Thrall again to fix everything and that I believe says a lot.

I am trying to be as reasonable as possible. It's clear that we don't agree and of course there isn't enough proof yet to prove what I'm saying however I am certain that the next patches will confirm me as it happened many times in the past.

[Deleted]

Define "really living". Do you, like all, mean "obscured by chasing sensual and moral satisfaction"?

To live means to feel etc. I am sure that if given a choice most of the Forsaken wouldn't have chosen that life. But they weren't given a choice.

Just like a bully won't admit he hit someone.

This doesn't cancel what happened. The Horde could've sent spies, too, but it sent help. The impact of war in Gilneas isn't canceled by the fact that it was a plot device to give worgen to the Alliance.

Everything is better than going back into slavery of racist bigots which will make you into cannon fodder again, preaching human superiority.

See, two can play this game.

Sending spies is one thing. Invading somewhere is quite another.

If the Alliance was truly evil and racist towards Blood Elves then it wouldn't have High Elves in it still. But now that the Blood Elves have sided with an enemy that is now officially at war with the Alliance, they have become the enemy too.

I don't see how that's in their best interests.

1. What is ironic about it? Sylvanas isn't destroying their homeland, the Alliance is. So joining the Alliance would be the ironic thing to do.
2. Sylvanas is not "the Lich Queen": She is not working for the Burning Legion, she isn't raising an army of mindless zombies and she isn't trying to kill every living being. That are like the three most important things to be called the Lich Queen!

Sylvanas is raising people from the dead in order to build up her army because the Forsaken can't procreate, and she used the plague on Gilneas.

If she starts spreading the plague in an offensive way then she is going to have to be dealt with. Just because she's not your enemy doesn't mean that what she has done is right, nor does it mean that all living things won't become her enemy eventually either.

[Yriel]

I remember a post back then in which was mentioned that the Neutral Factions would never rebel against Garrosh and his Horde. I also remember another post in which was mentioned that the Kirin Tor would never rebel against the Horde. Guess what. Both happened. The Kirin Tor were the first. Many more are on the way.

You state that all the time and never give any examples. The neutral factions aren´t even involved in the war since it mostly happens on Pandaria. And the Pandaren factions don't seem to favor one side.
The Kirin Tor only joined the Alliance because of Jaina. If she'd still be in Theramore the Kirin Tor would still be neutral i guess.

And they'll never have the Alliance a complete victory over the Horde because half of the playerbase plays Horde and it really would be bad game design to let the Alliance completely and utterly decimate the Horde and have the Alliance decide over their future. I'm willing to bet you 1000$ that this will never happen. The Alliance will attack Orgrimmar (probably even supported by Thrall's rebels) and will leave after Garrosh is handled with so that the new Warchief can take over.

[rowaasr13]

Using a plague on the Alliance-soldiers results into less Horde casualties. Fact.
What the hell are you even arguing?

Oh, BTW, eating Alliance children would results into less Horde casualties. Fact. (Obvious one. Less children = less grown up Alliance soldiers). I honestly start to kind of want to see such thing in game, so I can have more fits of laugh from coming to read how Horde preachers invent more and more outlandish excuses to still consider their faction to have even slightest resemblance of honor (excluding very few respected individuals like Thrall himself and Ertrigg, for example, who, what a fucking sweet irony, is highly influenced by humans in their mindset).

[Verdugo]

Oh, BTW, eating Alliance children would results into less Horde casualties. Fact.

Oh come on, thats disgusting. Its children you are talking about.

Killing them is enough.

[Scummer]

Sorry to burst your bubble but the Alliance isn't going to beat the Horde.
This war will never have a winner since that would mean the end of Warcraft!

The Alliance will come in, kick Garrosh's ass and get lost.
Anything else will be just wishfull thinking.

The problem with such an ending to this expansion/story arc is that it would relegate the Alliance to just an organisation that was used so that the Horde could learn that they did something bad to progress their story while leaving the Alliance empty handed in what has been a pretty crappy story on their behalf.

The Alliance needs an ending to this that's personal to them and them alone in much the same way the Horde has their dictator gone. Just leaving it as the Alliance killed Garrosh isn't enough at all, you're open to imagine what details these could be but simply leaving as you suggested it won't work.

[Verdugo]

The problem with such an ending to this expansion/story arc is that it would relegate the Alliance to just an organisation that was used so that the Horde could learn that they did something bad to progress their story while leaving the Alliance empty handed in what has been a pretty crappy story on their behalf.

You expect anything else from Blizzard? Horde (especialy orcs) will be the center of attention forever.

[Scummer]

You expect anything else from Blizzard? Horde (especialy orcs) will be the center of attention forever.

I'm hoping that it won't continue to be the case as prior to this War arc the whole "Horde bias" wasn't an issue. Currently in 5.1 we're seeing signs of it as in terms of te quality of both factions the Horde's has been better quality even if the quantity has been equal.

I'm trying my hardest to not expect such things atm .

[rowaasr13]

Oh come on, thats disgusting. Its children you are talking about.
Killing them is enough.

Nah, that's nothing new. Druids of the Flame say "hi".

[Combatbutler]

Nah, that's nothing new. Druids of the Flame say "hi".

You mean Leyaras daughter Istaria, who was over 1000 years old?

I'm hoping that it won't continue to be the case as prior to this War arc the whole "Horde bias" wasn't an issue. Currently in 5.1 we're seeing signs of it as in terms of te quality of both factions the Horde's has been better quality even if the quantity has been equal.

I'm trying my hardest to not expect such things atm .

Bliizard focuses too much on Orcs and humans and they more or less stated that won't change in the future, which will most likely lead to the orcs getting a clap on their fingers and everything will be as it used to be.

[mistuhbull]

Let me dispell your pathetic Horde-justifying propaganda with direct quote from quest text: "Furthermore, the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde with this operation." Please shut your lies of good and innocent Sunreavers where they belong.

And Jaina wasn't risking the neutrality of Dalaran by personally attending to the defense of the Bell in Darnassus?

[Combatbutler]

Most of the Orcs? Where did you read that information..
The Kor'Kron Guard is mostly Blackrock Orcs, we've had those on farm before.

It is stated in the Shattering that most Orcs follow Garrosh willingly, especially the young ones, while the old ones disagree because they know the true cost of war and the generation in between is almost non existent because of constant warfare.

[Deleted]

And Jaina wasn't risking the neutrality of Dalaran by personally attending to the defense of the Bell in Darnassus?

No. If a Sunreaver cast a magic shield on Silvermoon, I don't think anyone, especially Jaina would've seen that as betrayal, either. Sunreavers and Silver Covenant were aiding their own factions exclusively since WotLK, by providing weapons and shelter to their faction in Dalaran and at the Argent Tournament, while at the same time preventing the other faction from ever getting inside their part of the city and refusing to aid them at all.

[Aquamonkey]

I've been saying several times that it has nothing to do with race. You are comparing it to situations that are just different.

"I can't believe you are going to sit there and try to justify her bigotry as the act of an intelligent leader.

When the US finds spies, we don't arrest the ambassador and every foreign national from that country."

I didn't say anything about race in that post. You can be bigoted against a group of people without it being racism. There are other types of profiling besides racial.

That comment wasn't even aimed at that. I didn't justify gladiator fights, I simply compared the way they are forced to work to the way our prisoners are forced to work. And why shouldn't they do some work, should they just be allowed to sit on their ass the whole day and get shelter and food for free? Kind of feels more like being a slave having to go to work every day.

It's still a type of slavery. And again, they enslaved innocent orcs as well. It was more than just penal labor.

Let me dispell your pathetic Horde-justifying propaganda with direct quote from quest text: "Furthermore, the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde with this operation." Please shut your lies of good and innocent Sunreavers where they belong.

The Sunreavers were so knowledgeable that they were risking their neutrality that they were completely surprised by what happened. Show me again where all these Sunreavers are who participated in the theft of the Bell.

I finished Domination Offensive quest line and didn't notice any trial and execution of this disgusting "traitor". Could you please point when does it happen?

Because he was a spy and none of the other Blood Elves knew what he did? Notice how he's nowhere to be seen after the Darnassus operation? He knew about "the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde with this operation" and he GTFO. Nobody else knew and they were caught with their pants down.

Also only one single nameless Sunreaver was wondering "what's going on, why Lady Jaina is doing this". The rest of random NPC were quite arrogant and murderous in their responses, while named NPCs outright shown hatred and disdain to both Alliance and Kirin Tor.

Nope. All the Sunreaver citizens say stuff like that. Yea, I'd show hated and disdain too if my people were being tortured and murdered in the streets and in their homes.

Additionally, pretty much every attack in Alliance quest line is justified. Care to explain why did you kill Lieutenant Corwin? Try to give proper explanation or I'll have to correct you with another direct quote from "misunderstood peaceful elves".

Please, tell me how it is justified to torture and murder civilians while robbing them of their property.

[rowaasr13]

Nope. All the Sunreaver citizens say stuff like that. Yea, I'd show hated and disdain too if my people were being tortured and murdered in the streets and in their homes.

Go to http://www.wowpedia.org/Sunreaver_Citizen. Count amount of "confused" and "arrogant" replies. See the pattern? And again, check out named NPC reaction too. Orc's particularly disgusting, as always.

Please, tell me how it is justified to torture and murder civilians while robbing them of their property.

Name non-combatant civilians murdered in imprisonment operation. JFYI, traders are combatants, because quest text specifically mentions that every one of them was told what's going on and most choose to comply. So they're putting up resistance willingly and not in some "confusion".

[Aquamonkey]

Go to http://www.wowpedia.org/Sunreaver_Citizen. Count amount of "confused" and "arrogant" replies. See the pattern? And again, check out named NPC reaction too. Orc's particularly disgusting, as always.

Name non-combatant civilians murdered in imprisonment operation. JFYI, traders are combatants, because quest text specifically mentions that every one of them was told what's going on and most choose to comply. So they're putting up resistance willingly and not in some "confusion".

Perhaps you missed the part where the Hand of the Silver Covenant is dangling a Blood Elf over a shark then drops him in.

And also the quest Kangodo mentioned where you hunt down and murder someone trying to flee.

[Deleted]

wow guys i am amazed at what you are arguing about here.

So the Horde and Alliance are at WAR. This is no romantic stuff, its all out war. People get hurt, some innocents, some civilians. Looking at human history, can you say it is surprinsing what is going on? Bigotry? Hatred? Of course, war brings out the worst from everyone. WW2 had far harder to swallow scenes than throwing some dude to the sharks, or walking around a city and killing those that would refuse imprisonment.

Who is in the right? Who cares? Allies said horde started it, horde says they didnt know. War baby, its on.

To the ones that say that alliance overreacts in Dalaran - whici they are given how they were portrayed until now -, i invite you to imagine the scenario reversed. I think Hordes would very much slaughter allies, no problem. Then you would write on the forums that horde is hardcore and alliance for sissies. When its the other way around, allies are bigots and Jaina is unbalanced. Well hi, taste some of that medicine.