Purge of Dalaran - Character vs. Player

[khalltusk]

All I want is for jaina to get a good kicking. Shes ramping up for it with all her warmongering (yes its mostly a reaction to what has happened to her but shes starting to mirror garrosh on a lesser level).

I don't mean have her die, I just want her to get a nose bleed and put in her place.

[Khuzard]

All I want is for jaina to get a good kicking. Shes ramping up for it with all her warmongering (yes its mostly a reaction to what has happened to her but shes starting to mirror garrosh on a lesser level).

I don't mean have her die, I just want her to get a nose bleed and put in her place.

Don't worry, in the end she'll be consumed by her hatred and we'll have to take care of her. Vereesa will hopefully go the same path as Maiev and we can kick her ass.

[Nindoriel]

Humans did the exact same thing, even worse - turned over to the deadliest common enemy, giving Scourgу upper hand in numerous situations. It was way worse than the whole Divine Bell ordeal, yet at that time Jaina didn't even think of a mass "investigation".

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you say that Jaina should've investigated every human being alive, because Arthas sided with the Scourge? I've already said it twice, it has nothing to do with race.

[Combatbulter]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you say that Jaina should've investigated every human being alive, because Arthas sided with the Scourge? I've already said it twice, it has nothing to do with race.

One of the main problems is treachery within the ranks of the Kirin Tor has always been common and not every mage associated with those traitors was punished because of it, just look at how many magi betrayed the order by joining Malygos or the Scourge. Those are treated as some bad eggs but if a few Sunreavers step out of line they are all guilty.

[Aquamonkey]

She didn't demand Aethas' head. If she wanted him dead she would've incinerated him instantly. She presumed Aethas knew what was going on because he's the head of the Sunreavers and Sunreavers were responsible. She was arresting Sunreavers, rounding them up for questioning and interrogation (zealous players would be the ones engaging in any slaughter, and fortunately thats not really canon), it's called a dragnet. Law Enforcement does this stuff all the time, but if you start opening fire on the cops and get shot dead, it's your own fault. She wanted to know who was responsible for bypassing her wards. The Sunreavers didn't know, legitimately, but why should she believe their word when it's the second time a Sunreaver has done this to her?

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 09:02 AM ----------

No, it wasn't proclaimed by a psychic. Do the Alliance side quests and you'll know she had all the evidence she needed... (or does no one on this bloody horde loving forum play Alliance at all even to see the other side of the story?)

That presumption of Aethas' guilt is what psychic divination I was referring to. She had no evidence of Aethas' involvement. We don't know anything about what investigations Aethas conducted to find spies. Just because he didn't discover Fanlyr, doesn't mean he wasn't looking for spies.

Unfortunately, slaughter is canon: "Most Covenant agents are out slaughtering Sunreavers right now..." -Rommath

[Kangodo]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, you say that Jaina should've investigated every human being alive, because Arthas sided with the Scourge? I've already said it twice, it has nothing to do with race.

No no no, she should have exiled the entire nation of Lordaeron! Just like she did now.

[Haven]

One of the main problems is treachery within the ranks of the Kirin Tor has always been common and not every mage associated with those traitors was punished because of it, just look at how many magi betrayed the order by joining Malygos or the Scourge. Those are treated as some bad eggs but if a few Sunreavers step out of line they are all guilty.

Yep, Combatbutler stated my point better - thanks, bro.

[Nindoriel]

One of the main problems is treachery within the ranks of the Kirin Tor has always been common and not every mage associated with those traitors was punished because of it, just look at how many magi betrayed the order by joining Malygos or the Scourge. Those are treated as some bad eggs but if a few Sunreavers step out of line they are all guilty.

Well if some faction in Dalaran made their affiliation with Malygos apparent while they were part of the Kirin Tor, betrayed them and joined the ranks of Malygos while abusing their position within theb Kirin Tor to help the Blue Dragonflight, I'm sure had she been the leader at that time she would've done something, just like Rhonin would've.

No no no, she should have exiled the entire nation of Lordaeron! Just like she did now.

Exile a nation you have no authority over because one human sided with the Scourge. How often do I have to mention it has nothing to do with race?

[Shadow-cleave]

Exile a nation you have no authority over because one human sided with the Scourge. How often do I have to mention it has nothing to do with race?

It may not be a nation she is exiling (she's doing far more than just a simple exile by the way, an exile would've been kinder), but she's doing something to an entire sub-faction because one Sunreaver sided with the Horde (likewise, she sided with the Alliance, mind you). And it IS a matter of race, whether you like it or not. Jaina may not have a concern, but the Silver Covenant certainly is playing the "We Hate The Sin'dorei" card.

[Combatbulter]

Well if some faction in Dalaran made their affiliation with Malygos apparent while they were part of the Kirin Tor, betrayed them and joined the ranks of Malygos while abusing their position within theb Kirin Tor to help the Blue Dragonflight, I'm sure had she been the leader at that time she would've done something, just like Rhonin would've.

Those people were part of The Kirin Tor as a whole and at least one acted as sleeper agent, trying to crash the entire city into a mountain. Those things happened before and they will happen again, loyalty was never the virtue of the Dalaran magi.

[Nindoriel]

Those people were part of The Kirin Tor as a whole and at least one acted as sleeper agent, trying to crash the entire city into a mountain. Those things happened before and they will happen again, loyalty was never the virtue of the Dalaran magi.

So because there are traitors among the Kirin Tor that means that they shouldn't be punished/thrown out?

[Combatbulter]

So because there are traitors among the Kirin Tor that means that they shouldn't be punished/thrown out?

The traitors of course but not those who are in some way associated with them, otherwise the Kirin Tor should have ceased to be a long time ago. But that is beside the point now, what is done is done.

[Nindoriel]

The traitors of course but not those who are in some way associated with them, otherwise the Kirin Tor should have ceased to be a long time ago. But that is beside the point now, what is done is done.

If you have a group like the Sunreavers where one of them pulls something like that and you just throw him out or only punish him and let the others stay unharmed, then wouldn't that be a great way of abusing that? If I was the Horde, I would always send one man on a mission. Even if he gets discovered and gets thrown out, there's lot of other Sunreavers in there.

I think every reasonable person would at some point figure out that you can't trust that faction because everytime someone from them does something like that and you throw him out, there's another one doing the exact same thing, while the bulk of the faction can continue to sit safely in Dalaran.

At least at some point you have to think, "hey this doesn't work, we have to get rid of all of them". There is a limited number of times you let a group screw you over and for Jaina that number was 2.

[Combatbulter]

If you have a group like the Sunreavers where one of them pulls something like that and you just throw him out or only punish him and let the others stay unharmed, then wouldn't that be a great way of abusing that? If I was the Horde, I would always send one man on a mission. Even if he gets discovered and gets thrown out, there's lot of other Sunreavers in there.

I think every reasonable person would at some point figure out that you can't trust that faction because everytime someone from them does something like that and you throw him out, there's another one doing the exact same thing, while the bulk of the faction can continue to sit safely in Dalaran.

At least at some point you have to think, "hey this doesn't work, we have to get rid of all of them". There is a limited number of times you let a group screw you over and for Jaina that number was 2.

Still you have to consider the past of the Kirin Tor as well to see the whole picture, they are hardly a trustworthy bunch, never have and never will be.

Throwing the Sunreavers out was the logical thing to do, still the Kirin Tor as a whole remain untrustworthy.

[Nindoriel]

Still you have to consider the past of the Kirin Tor as well to see the whole picture, they are hardly a trustworthy bunch, never have and never will be.

Throwing the Sunreavers out was the logical thing to do, still the Kirin Tor as a whole remain untrustworthy.

Don't see how the Kirin Tor as a whole is untrustworthy.

[Combatbulter]

Don't see how the Kirin Tor as a whole is untrustworthy.

Personal preference maybe but the Kirin Tor had so many traitors in recent years it is hard to trust them, not to mention they are just as opportunistic as the blood elves.

[DeLos]

That presumption of Aethas' guilt is what psychic divination I was referring to. She had no evidence of Aethas' involvement. We don't know anything about what investigations Aethas conducted to find spies. Just because he didn't discover Fanlyr, doesn't mean he wasn't looking for spies.

Unfortunately, slaughter is canon: "Most Covenant agents are out slaughtering Sunreavers right now..." -Rommath

This is getting really old. She caught him watching over the portal. There is no way he did not know what was going on. Even if he did nothing himself (and we are not sure of that) he gave tacit approval by letting it happen. He watched it go down. He got caught red handed. There is no "presumption of Aethas' guilt", she caught him.

And this is all moot anyway. Regardless of if you think her evidence was circumstantial or not, we as outsiders seeing both events know she was correct. A contingent of Sunreavers did use Dalaran to slip into Darnassus. Aethas did know about it.

As to the 'slaughter' being cannon, I really think this is interesting that you take it that way. Rommath says X and suddenly it is 100% true and he knows it for fact. It is cannon. There was no embellishment, no mistaken information, etc, etc. Yet when Jaina says Aethas was guilty, you are all 'No, she could not possibly know that. She didn't have any evidence. She is over reacting and emotional." What if Rommath's 'most' was really just a couple traitors. He is condemning the entire organization. What about all the Silver Covenant agents that had nothing to do with it? I could say Rommath is just emotional and pissed and blaming an innocent organization for the act of a few. See how that works? Goose meets gander.

[Nindoriel]

Personal preference maybe but the Kirin Tor had so many traitors in recent years it is hard to trust them, not to mention they are just as opportunistic as the blood elves.

Who exactly.

[Zaelsino]

This is getting really old. She caught him watching over the portal.

I don't recall any portal in the Violet Citadel. Aethas hanging out in the place the city's leaders are known to spend time in isn't exactly incriminating.

Shit, Vereesa was standing about five meters away. Was she in on the plot too?

[Combatbulter]

Who exactly.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Crevan
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kel%27thuzad
http://www.wowpedia.org/Kael
http://www.wowpedia.org/Telestra
http://www.wowpedia.org/Mage-Lord_Urom
http://www.wowpedia.org/Inquisitor_Caleras

However, there are some members of the Kirin Tor who believed that allying themselves with Malygos would be far more beneficial. Betraying their own brethren to preserve their own power, these mages have been transformed and bolstered by Malygos to become the dreaded mage hunters.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Nexus_War
http://www.wowpedia.org/Mage_hunter


Do you want my honest opinion which faction in the wow universe can be trusted? The answer is none, neutral or otherwise ;P