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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Then all question of whether someone has a natural right to something or not is thrown out of the window. All that matters is whether someone is strong enough or not. You don't need to find justification then.
    Natural right ? Who should define that ? There are no super-national laws or organizations like the UN in Azeroth so of course it's the right of the strongest.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    I dont see your sources either. Do you really expect me to give you every detail, page, website and quote for my words? That's just ridiculous. It's all right though. People use this technique when they're out of backtalk.
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Eredar
    http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Story_So...rning_Crusade)

    The book Rise of The Horde

  3. #1043
    Not enough, sorry. Just not enough.

  4. #1044
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    Watch, he's going to use the "brillaint and magically gifted" and "attracted' lines for his "proof."

    As for that, well, I daresay Sargeras could have chosen the Kal'dorei (10,000 years ago version) or Sin'dorei for the same task, had he been looking for chief officers now.
    Based on how long ago their civilizations peaked in magical power (Eredar 25,000 years ago vs 10,000 for Elves) the Draenei would have 15,000 years of experience over the Elves. While the Draenei aren't immortal, they are the same ones alive from 25,000 years ago. These Draenei would be somewhat rusty and diminished in arcane power after 25,000 years of suppressing it. Their knowledge of magic in general would only increase with time, especially under the guidance of the Naaru helping them hone their use of non-arcane magic.

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    Not enough, sorry. Just not enough.
    Come give me your sources then, that should be interesting ;P

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Come give me your sources then, that should be interesting ;P
    nah. i'm not falling into this trap

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    nah. i'm not falling into this trap
    Oh good one you had me going there, but now it is obvious you are part of the horde. Do me a favor greet your racial leader Vol'jin from me.

  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Oh good one you had me going there, but now it is obvious you are part of the horde. Do me a favor greet your racial leader Vol'jin from me.
    I'm actually both. I love both sides equally. I'm not biased unlike some people.

  9. #1049
    Banned Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    You're not a worthy opponent, compared to Combatbutler. It's not even worth proving you wrong. Come back to me when you learn common sense.

    Btw, don't ignore lore for your own fanboyish ways you belf, LOL. I'm merely assuming, but most people are like that.
    What a strong, irrefutable argument. It's common sense that tells me that a race which has the word "arcane" in the names of all their racials, is suppused to be the arcane race. Magic powers even their fountains (with portal loops). Magic floating crystals are found wherever they are. Magic brooms mop the streets of their cities all by themselves. Magic constructs guard those streets. And you still dare say that humans are superior? Pfah. Of course they are, because humans are better than everyone, at everything.

    Or draenei. Yes, I've seen a draenei mage once. It was a trainer in Exodar. I haven't seen a mention of any other draenei mages ever since. Even though it's stated that eredar were once powerful with the arcane, draenei mages these days are just as prominent and important as dwarven paladins, they just exist somewhere and that's all. Name me just one formidable draenei mage or a draenei achievement in the field of arcane, and I'll name you five memorable Blood Elf mages from the top of my head that instant.

    And no, draenei are not eredar. Eredar no longer exist, there's only man'ari eredar (empowered and mutated by Legion), draenei (changed with the Light so much it has become their racial ability to call upon it with a floating glyph upon their forehead), and Broken/Lost subspecies. Their culture has also changed drastically to become centered on religion. But of course, if you say so, almighty draenei may crush the Horde with their immeasurable arcane might at any second, they're just "playing" with the Horde.

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    I said I "assumed" you're a fanboy.

    Blood Elves are no doubt great with magic. They started a lot. Their whole culture is based around it. But that doesn't make the Horde stronger with magic. I already explained why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    I said I "assumed" you're a fanboy.

    Blood Elves are no doubt great with magic. They started a lot. Their whole culture is based around it. But that doesn't make the Horde stronger with magic. I already explained why.
    And I quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    don't ignore lore for your own fanboyish ways you belf, LOL.
    Whether you were "assuming" or not, you still insulted me by calling me a fanboy, a didn't give a counter-argument.

    And how would it not? They use it every day, they're backed by the powerful Sunwell, and they have the Forsaken as well (undead HUMAN (since you seem to think they're more powerful) and elven magi).

    Draenei have no notable mages, Kal'dorei are completely inexperienced, and humans have a few noteworthy mages (many of whom were/are part of the "neutral" Kirin Tor, and are dead). Really, the only notable mage the Alliance has right now is Jaina, and she is easily countered, if not outclassed, by Aethas and Rommath, as is the Kirin Tor by the Magisters (now, ironically due to Jaina's efforts) backed by the Sunreavers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Based on how long ago their civilizations peaked in magical power (Eredar 25,000 years ago vs 10,000 for Elves) the Draenei would have 15,000 years of experience over the Elves. While the Draenei aren't immortal, they are the same ones alive from 25,000 years ago. These Draenei would be somewhat rusty and diminished in arcane power after 25,000 years of suppressing it. Their knowledge of magic in general would only increase with time, especially under the guidance of the Naaru helping them hone their use of non-arcane magic.
    My example was a "what if" Sargeras hadn't fallen until either the Kal'dorei were at their peak, or the Sin'dorei (Though they'd never have been created without his influence; They were nearly his anyways).

    And we don't know how long it took until they were at their peak, just how long it's been. Strengthened by the Well, the Night Elves very well could have reached theirs before the Eredar did (in the same timespan), it's just that Sargeras had fallen before the Elves were in existence and the Eredar were living earlier than that.

    Had the Eredar and Kal'dorei been brought in existence at the same time, I have no doubt Sargeras could have chosen one or the other (maybe both). But that's just a "what if" thing.

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    I'm actually both. I love both sides equally. I'm not biased unlike some people.
    No sir it is quite obvious you are a troll, so do me a favor either start taking this at least somewhat seriously, or just get lost. ;P

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No sir it is quite obvious you are a troll, so do me a favor either start taking this at least somewhat seriously, or just get lost. ;P
    Lol. You're using the "TROLL GTFO" technique. Only people who are out of words do this. I didn't know I succesfuly trolled you though. It makes me glad.

    Trolling without realizing it... I guess I won.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    Another unworthy opponent. You are (like the others) missing out on a lot of canon-lore. Currently as of now the Draenei focus on the arcane and holy light moreso than anything else. They are older than any other playable race, giving them more knowledge than most on the planet. Blue Dragons are an exception.
    A reference to a single mage of note in the Draenei and I'll give you this. But since you are just making assumptions, your words mean nothing. Just because they are the oldest race, doesn't mean they are the most powerful. You are making assertions, and have no basis behind other than saying they are arcane based, which is not demonstrated in current Draenei society.

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by Lighto73 View Post
    A reference to a single mage of note in the Draenei and I'll give you this. But since you are just making assumptions, your words mean nothing. Just because they are the oldest race, doesn't mean they are the most powerful. You are making assertions, and have no basis behind other than saying they are arcane based, which is not demonstrated in current Draenei society.
    It's common sense to say an older race would be superior. Knowledge IS power. However some races have higher rates of passion/ambition (such as humans) making up for their short lifespans.

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    It's common sense to say an older race would be superior. Knowledge IS power. However some races have higher rates of passion/ambition (such as humans) making up for their short lifespans.
    Still waiting on that Draenei mage who kept their arcane magic skills honed while fleeing and hiding from the Legion (who follows Arcane magic trails, by the way; It's how they found Azeroth so easily), for 25,000 years.

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    Still waiting on that Draenei mage who kept their arcane magic skills honed while fleeing and hiding from the Legion (who follows Arcane magic trails, by the way; It's how they found Azeroth so easily), for 25,000 years.
    Still waiting for you to become worthy enough to face me.

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    It's common sense to say an older race would be superior. Knowledge IS power. However some races have higher rates of passion/ambition (such as humans) making up for their short lifespans.
    You are contradicting yourself. On top of that, from what we are presented with present day Draenai, they follow the Light more than anything else. Their society isn't one like the Blood Elves built around magic, it's built around the Light, and their is no evidence supporting your claim to them being superior magic wielders, not in-game or out.

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    Still waiting for you to become worthy enough to face me.
    I am, you're the one insulting me (as well as others), and spouting that "I don't need to quote or source anything because I'm so awesome and right and you're not!"

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-cleave View Post
    I am, you're the one insulting me (as well as others), and spouting that "I don't need to quote or source anything because I'm so awesome and right and you're not!"
    Don't feed it, it is pointless, if he is ignored he will leave sooner or later.

  20. #1060
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Or draenei. Yes, I've seen a draenei mage once. It was a trainer in Exodar. I haven't seen a mention of any other draenei mages ever since. Even though it's stated that eredar were once powerful with the arcane, draenei mages these days are just as prominent and important as dwarven paladins, they just exist somewhere and that's all. Name me just one formidable draenei mage or a draenei achievement in the field of arcane, and I'll name you five memorable Blood Elf mages from the top of my head that instant.

    And no, draenei are not eredar. Eredar no longer exist, there's only man'ari eredar (empowered and mutated by Legion), draenei (changed with the Light so much it has become their racial ability to call upon it with a floating glyph upon their forehead), and Broken/Lost subspecies. Their culture has also changed drastically to become centered on religion. But of course, if you say so, almighty draenei may crush the Horde with their immeasurable arcane might at any second, they're just "playing" with the Horde.
    I'm assuming most of the common Draenei running around today aren't those that originally fled Argus. These younger Draenei would be weaker in arcane magic due to their culture not cultivating that kind of knowledge/tradition. This could explain the lack of prominent Draenei mages.

    I would argue that the original Draenei still living to be as knowledgeable about arcane as they were 25,000 years ago. They're just out of practice due to abandoning arcane magic for the Light. If one of these original Draenei set their mind to it, I don't imagine it would take too long to regain most of their arcane proficiency.

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