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  1. #1
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    [PvE] Tier 90 talent choice difference

    I get the impression that the cookie-cutter tier 90 choice is Glaive Toss for PvE.

    I am curious what the relative difference is between the 3 options from a PvE perspective.
    - How far ahead is Glaive Toss?
    - How important is it to your total DPS potential to choose GT over Power Shot or Barrage?
    - And, if their relative DPS is similar, are there other reasons why GT is considered superior?

    I'm getting bored with GT, but since I never see anything else mentioned in PvE discussions, I'm wary of switching around.

    I'm always Survival, in case that affects anything.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2013-01-01 at 07:30 PM.

  2. #2
    barrage actually does the same damage, the reason people don't use it is that you can "lose" and auto shot if you don't auto shoot right before you do barrage.

    barrage is also vastly superior in AoE.

  3. #3
    Beyond what Nemesis said, Barrage costs 30 focus on a 30 sec cooldown, vs. 15 focus on a 15 sec cooldown. Obviously that's the same cost over time, but you need more focus at once for barrage, but spend fewer GCDs on it.

    I tend to favor Glavie Toss when I'm not going for max AoE if only because the cone on Barrage can be rather..... large. That's not usually an issue in raids, but the first time I used Barrage in a heroic I pulled quite a few mobs I didn't mean to... lol

    Power Shot is just obnoxious, in my opinion.... not one I would ever use. You'll probably see similar results with glave toss and barrage (though you can always sim yourself with femaledwarf.com to see just how much it would affect you), so really it would be a question of whether you want a channeled ability with a large cone you hit less often, or an instant ability that you hit more often.

    Edit: For what it's worth, my sims as beast mastery show me losing 3-4k dps single target going from glaive toss to barrage, all other factors being equal. *shrug* for whatever that's worth.
    Last edited by darkwarrior42; 2013-01-01 at 08:21 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Beyond what Nemesis said, Barrage costs 30 focus on a 30 sec cooldown, vs. 15 focus on a 15 sec cooldown. Obviously that's the same cost over time, but you need more focus at once for barrage, but spend fewer GCDs on it.

    I tend to favor Glavie Toss when I'm not going for max AoE if only because the cone on Barrage can be rather..... large. That's not usually an issue in raids, but the first time I used Barrage in a heroic I pulled quite a few mobs I didn't mean to... lol

    Power Shot is just obnoxious, in my opinion.... not one I would ever use. You'll probably see similar results with glave toss and barrage (though you can always sim yourself with femaledwarf.com to see just how much it would affect you), so really it would be a question of whether you want a channeled ability with a large cone you hit less often, or an instant ability that you hit more often.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    barrage actually does the same damage, the reason people don't use it is that you can "lose" and auto shot if you don't auto shoot right before you do barrage.

    barrage is also vastly superior in AoE.

    Barrage is a 3 second channel without any haste. With 2506 haste (my haste rating) and the attack speed buff present it would be at about a 2.5 second channel time and makes you lose an auto shot which is more than 2 GCDs with glaive toss. Barrage is simming 1.5k less than GT with a 504 ilvl weapon for me, so unless if the sims are completely wrong they don't do the same damage. Glaive toss will always beat out barrage on single target. Even simming with H taoren 2/2 barrage is 1201.58 dps behind GT in my gear. Now 1201.58 is a pretty big loss just from changing an ability.

    TL;DR

    GT> Barrage


    I don't want to start this whole GT vs barrage thing again because we would just be going in circles. For the OP please refer to this forum thread. Off-topic but still should give you your answer. It also has nemesis' and my input as well as some other players.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...te-Stars/page2

    Barrage vs glaive toss starts at post #29
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-01 at 08:47 AM.

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Barrage is a 3 second channel without any haste. With 2506 haste (my haste rating) and the attack speed buff present it would be at about a 2.5 second channel time and makes you lose an auto shot which is more than 2 GCDs with glaive toss. Barrage is simming 1.5k less than GT with a 504 ilvl weapon for me, so unless if the sims are completely wrong they don't do the same damage. Glaive toss will always beat out barrage on single target. Even simming with H taoren 2/2 barrage is 1201.58 dps behind GT in my gear. Now 1201.58 is a pretty big loss just from changing an ability.

    TL;DR

    GT> Barrage


    I don't want to start this whole GT vs barrage thing again because we would just be going in circles. For the OP please refer to this forum thread. Off-topic but still should give you your answer. It also has nemesis' and my input as well as some other players.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...te-Stars/page2

    Barrage vs glaive toss starts at post #29
    barrage = autoshot timer BTW, so under any type of haste effect with reasonable haste IE RF or FF it is actually under 2 GCds. As well as half of all barrage casts are increased by BW where as only 1/4 of glaive tosses are.

    Sims are great, but people rely on them far to much thinking they actually = real gameplay.

    not saying barrage is better tehn GT, i'm just saying its not nearly as bad as the forum doomsayers claim it is. Also barrage is not a "skill shot" like glaive toss is

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    barrage = autoshot timer BTW, so under any type of haste effect with reasonable haste IE RF or FF it is actually under 2 GCds. As well as half of all barrage casts are increased by BW where as only 1/4 of glaive tosses are.

    Sims are great, but people rely on them far to much thinking they actually = real gameplay.

    not saying barrage is better tehn GT, i'm just saying its not nearly as bad as the forum doomsayers claim it is. Also barrage is not a "skill shot" like glaive toss is
    So you basically just reposted what was said in the forum I linked? My turn.

    You won't have 100% uptime on haste effects so that <2 second channel time would only be a couple of your barrages. Your barrage will never be affected by FF if you are using FF after BW. You are using 2+ seconds during BW with barrage while only 1 with GT. So basically you are losing two arcane shots and an auto shot. Barrage would need to beat GT damage + 2 arcane shots + 1 auto shot to equate to more dps during BW. You also shouldn't have haste effects with BW outside of the opener.

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  7. #7
    I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, so I'll add this: as a rule of thumb, Barrage is better than Glaive Toss whenever meaningful AOE damage is thrown into the mix. You should be switching between them on a per-fight basis.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    So you basically just reposted what was said in the forum I linked? My turn.

    You won't have 100% uptime on haste effects so that <2 second channel time would only be a couple of your barrages. Your barrage will never be affected by FF if you are using FF after BW. You are using 2+ seconds during BW with barrage while only 1 with GT. So basically you are losing two arcane shots and an auto shot. Barrage would need to beat GT damage + 2 arcane shots + 1 auto shot to equate to more dps during BW. You also shouldn't have haste effects with BW outside of the opener.
    no your wrong. barrage has to beat 2 glaive tosses. You only lose the auto shot if you do barrage RIGHT before the auto shot. Barrage takes me 2.3 seconds to cast. So it only lose .3 seconds which is not enough time for an arcane shot.

    Barrage beats 2 GT right now with a 504 weapon damage wise. When under a BW you don't "lose" and arcane shot because if you are just talking about the damage done during the BW you have to consider the use of 2 GCDs basically unless you are lower on hate then you are using 2.5 if you look at it in 2.5 GCDs you use a GT and an arcane shot in that time and barrage definatly beats a GT and 1 arcane shot, the only thing to worry about is the other .3-.5 seconds barrage does the damage equal to what you would do in that unless you derped it and did braage the instant before the auto shot went off thus losing the full auto shot.

    Barrage isn't weaker you just have to be a better player to use it right, which is what is beyond 99.99999% of the current hunter population the other .000001% is simply too lazy to bother with it.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    no your wrong. barrage has to beat 2 glaive tosses. You only lose the auto shot if you do barrage RIGHT before the auto shot. Barrage takes me 2.3 seconds to cast. So it only lose .3 seconds which is not enough time for an arcane shot.

    Barrage beats 2 GT right now with a 504 weapon damage wise. When under a BW you don't "lose" and arcane shot because if you are just talking about the damage done during the BW you have to consider the use of 2 GCDs basically unless you are lower on hate then you are using 2.5 if you look at it in 2.5 GCDs you use a GT and an arcane shot in that time and barrage definatly beats a GT and 1 arcane shot, the only thing to worry about is the other .3-.5 seconds barrage does the damage equal to what you would do in that unless you derped it and did braage the instant before the auto shot went off thus losing the full auto shot.

    Barrage isn't weaker you just have to be a better player to use it right, which is what is beyond 99.99999% of the current hunter population the other .000001% is simply too lazy to bother with it.
    Do you have any evidence to support your claims? I'd like to see your spreadsheets etc.

    i will test this, but I can't see barrage beating GT damage wise.

    Also even though the GCD is 1 second it doesn't take 1 second to cast arcane shot. If you set up your custom lag tolerance accordingly you could get an arcane shot off at the last second if done right.

    Unbuffed without anything up, my GT hits for 30k and crits for 60k and my barrage hits for 6k and crits for 12k with a 504 weapon. Presuming 2 GTs and 1 Barrage:

    mix/max values
    GT: 120k - 240k
    Barrage: 96k - 192k

    So if one glaive toss crits, that'll put you at ~180k damage which is just about at the maximum of barrage. Now with the upgraded H taoren the numbers would be a bit different, but it would still be about the same calculations.

    The numbers don't agree with you. Why take something that has a slightly higher time to execute than 2 GT and delays your auto shots (making you potentially lose one) and does less damage? There is no reason except if you are using it on an aoe fight and GT can't hit all the targets.

    Also unbuffed without anything up my arcane shot hits for 30k-60k. 1 GT is 60k-120k. Add those together and you get 90k - 180k and barrage is 96k - 192k. They are almost identical in min/max damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    Barrage takes me 2.3 seconds to cast.
    Are you sure you are looking at it right?

    According to your wow-heroes It says you have 2403 haste rating. And on mine I have 2506. For some odd reason my auto shot swing timer is 2.58 seconds and my barrage channel time is 2.83 seconds with the 10% haste buff up. So with this being the case, you would lose an auto shot over time.




    and my barrage channel time is 2.02 seconds with the 10% haste buff and rapid fire. So still slightly over 2 seconds.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-01 at 11:41 AM.

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  10. #10
    that is rather out of date seeing how i do not play on illidan anymore...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    that is rather out of date seeing how i do not play on illidan anymore...
    Thanks for bringing that to my attention. It appears you are on stormreaver under Ruzaki. However I cannot check your wow-heroes since the wow armory is acting weird. How much haste do you have then? Either way it says you left illidan on the 28th. Now unless if you got a whole bunch of gear with different stats, I don't see how out of date it is since you'd need a considerable amount of haste to reach 2.3 seconds on your barrage if it is scaling with haste as mine is.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-01 at 11:49 AM.

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  12. #12
    Has anyone tried Power Shot on Wind Lord Heroic? I imagine we could hit quite hard.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Rullis View Post
    Has anyone tried Power Shot on Wind Lord Heroic? I imagine we could hit quite hard.
    One high number isn't going to beat several lower numbers with more combined damage. Not only that, Powershot is quite iffy.

    One of the reasons why people prefer Barrage on AoE fights is simply because the shots always land. Glaive Toss while doing higher single target damage is a little difficult to always hit every enemy with when AoEing. Powershot on the other hand has a much narrower AoE effect compared to Glaive Toss and moving mobs don't even get hit. Long story short, Powershot isn't going to be good in tier 14 in it's current state damage-wise.

  14. #14
    The only reason I'm saying it is because you obviously have bloodlust and perhaps Rapid fire, hence it will shot really quickly. But it was just a thought

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rullis View Post
    The only reason I'm saying it is because you obviously have bloodlust and perhaps Rapid fire, hence it will shot really quickly. But it was just a thought
    Haste effects benefit Powershot as much as it benefits Barrage. It's really just the issue of actually hitting things with it. I'm not saying Powershot is hard to hit things with in PvE but if the Blademasters happen to charge someone during the cast it's missed damage. Barrage always hits, no matter what. Well unless someone who is standing directly behind you is being charged or if your position is a little awkward.

    It's a shame because I like Powershot. It's just not remotely effective at anything other than knocking back adds on the black shield phase on Feng heroic. And even there I would argue Barrage is better because of the sheer damage.

  16. #16
    As stated before, the major downside of Barrage is that we lose autoshots while channeling. It would be viable if it does not stops us to continue autoshooting like steady or cobra but I do not believe blizz will do such change soon.

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, this has helped my understanding of T90 a lot.

    If you switch to Barrage for a fight, where does it fall on the priority list? For Survival.
    - Do you use it at all on single-target, or only save it for AoE?
    - What's the priority for Barrage on AoE? Where does it fall between putting up Serpent Spread, more Multi-Shots, and putting down Explosive?
    - If it is used single-target, where does it fall in the list?

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Thanks guys, this has helped my understanding of T90 a lot.

    If you switch to Barrage for a fight, where does it fall on the priority list? For Survival.
    - Do you use it at all on single-target, or only save it for AoE?
    - What's the priority for Barrage on AoE? Where does it fall between putting up Serpent Spread, more Multi-Shots, and putting down Explosive?
    - If it is used single-target, where does it fall in the list?
    It's at the exact same place in the priority as Glave Toss is.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    One high number isn't going to beat several lower numbers with more combined damage. Not only that, Powershot is quite iffy.

    One of the reasons why people prefer Barrage on AoE fights is simply because the shots always land. Glaive Toss while doing higher single target damage is a little difficult to always hit every enemy with when AoEing. Powershot on the other hand has a much narrower AoE effect compared to Glaive Toss and moving mobs don't even get hit. Long story short, Powershot isn't going to be good in tier 14 in it's current state damage-wise.
    Wind Lord isn't really much of an AOE fight. All the relevant damage done on that fight is done to the boss; let better classes cleave the adds, and just sit on the boss as BM and burst the heck out of him during the burst phases.

    Which is why Powershot *might* be kind of okay on that fight. But I'm content with using Glaive Toss for now, and that's what most people are using for that fight.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphorism View Post
    Wind Lord isn't really much of an AOE fight. All the relevant damage done on that fight is done to the boss; let better classes cleave the adds, and just sit on the boss as BM and burst the heck out of him during the burst phases.

    Which is why Powershot *might* be kind of okay on that fight. But I'm content with using Glaive Toss for now, and that's what most people are using for that fight.
    Even if you want to save the adds for better suited classes, Glaive Toss beast Powershot in single target damage. There is just no reason to use Powershot anywhere unless you specifically need a knockback or if you want to tick off your melee DPS.

    With that said, the latter reason is a very good and compelling reason to spec into Powershot.

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