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  1. #41
    PVP balancing, in my mind, revolves around three things. Survivability, CC, and damage dealt. Quick definition - by survivability, I mean both damage taken and healing capability rolled into one. IE, one might say a healer and a tank spec both have high survivability, and they do, but in different ways. Same concept for the point I'm trying to make.

    Ret right now is only decent - not good, decent - at one of those things. We can burst once in a while in ways that some people consider to be 'good' but even that is miles behind what other classes are capable of. Our healing, self and otherwise, is crap, as is our laughable damage mitigation. Add to that a pretty pathetic CC roster (especially for a dps spec) and you get real close to free HK territory.

    Compare that to say, a mage. They have an amazing array of CC options, a personal shield that was very very OP until they nerfed it down to great, and their burst dps is every bit as good if not better, only they get to use theirs a lot more due to being ranged and having so many CC options. The only small advantage ret has over frost mage is that we can kind of heal other players, but that is so insignificant to the damage and CC disparity that it goes unnoticed. I use mages as an example because of personal bias - I hate the little shits - but there are several other classes/specs that you can make the same comparison to and will end up with the same results.

    So to bring ret back to something decent, one of the other two needs to come up. Either our ability to CC or our ability to survive and help our allies survive. Or the alternative, bring other classes down.

    Ret is not the only spec that is in this situation, but it seems like Blizzard doesn't give a crap that we are here. I haven't started really watching the 5.2 changes and I don't play PTR, hopefully we'll get some love but it's been a long time since ret has been anything more than an off healer spec that few if any groups want for any kind of PVP. Cata relegated Paladin PVP options to spec Holy or run a BG flag. Then MoP came and now it's just spec Holy.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
    Just fine around 1700. That's "where they should be"

    Extremely OP at 1000 mmr. Really good at BGs too, not rated of course, how would that be competitive?
    No class "should be" stuck at 1700. That's terrible design. You wanna pvp as this class because you love it? Sorry, you're stuck at 1700. Nice try going for Glad though!

    As people have said, Ret's issue is survivability. I would trade burst for it. And not healing, because then if we can offheal strongly again, it will just get nerfed. We are a melee dps, and should be treated as such. Some of the best ways to fix Ret PvP are something along the lines of:

    Glyph for WoG(or build it into the spec): Your WoG can only target yourself, and heals you for 20% of your hp. (number could even be tweaked)

    Considering my paladin has pretty meh pvp gear (I gave up on this season a couple weeks in, about after I got my weapon), he has ~345k health unbuffed. 20% of this is a 69k heal. This is still less self preservation than my lock, who, i just dinged 90 to be a Tillers farm alt who can eat embers for almost 90k, which is getting buffed by 50% with a glyph. Better to use resources than be dead. With how much WoG hurts our already shitty sustained, it really needs to heal for more.

    or, make WoG scale with our mastery if cast on ourselves. Still wouldnt be as crazy ridiculous as Defensive Stance, as its not passive. But Ret needs some buff to our self preservation. Even if it isn't passive like a defensive stance, we need SOMETHING.
    And: to counter the "PLATE BUBBLE HEALZ" argument that is sure to follow... just make the healing from WoG cut in half during bubble or something.

  3. #43
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    Yup, agreed about our damage being too strong, maybe because we do single target, DK/etc top the charts with area damage.

    I think we just need:

    1) Better survival (better DP, magic BoP, maybe a self sacrifice that transfer the damage to other, or the same old better self heals).

    2) Some other peel/CC. Instant Rep whould solve our lack for peels (a BoP does NOT give the same peels as a area fear for instance) or a 1 min CD blind maybe. Or another thing - the fact is that we lack CCs and the utility we bring does NOT make up for the lack of CC for peels/chain CC healers for the kill. Look at all the DPS classes and we can see that every class has more CC than Ret as baseline. With talent it goes for 30% less CC in 2 mins. We lost Rep since we can't stop to cast or we lose range/etc and Holy got it. As if Holy was weak and Ret had too many CCs.

    So it comes down to ways to survive. Area CC can peel and that is some kind of defensive CD like blind, but 2 mins and breaking that easy sucks.


    Another thing: most classes heal for % life and we lose balance there. Nerf our heals and don't nerf other classes % heal (Exhiliration, Second Wind, Cold Snap, Dark Regeneration) and now Rets that supose to last a lot and self heal at least OK, get behind a 2 min CD 100k heal. We bubble and heal for 80k casting if nobody dispel us. Else we lose damage from a TV to WoG for not enough to be worth it. There's what Blizz should fix.

  4. #44
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    Another thing: I'm fine with them nerfing AW's +healing for Ret if our heals are stronger more consistently. I also think Selfless Healer should be removed, it just promotes Ret being an offhealer dps. We should have defensive utility from things like Sac, not healing. Then our healing gets nerfed and our survivability suffers.

  5. #45
    This is something i was thinking about the Glyph of Inquisition. Why not take off the damage reduction and it give 15% healing.... that would fix a lot for me.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeActionTess View Post
    Another question related to ret PvP, and again Ghostcrawler with the same reply: 'We think they are how they should be'

    I don't know what kind of information he pulls out of his ass, but as far as I know most ret paladins I've spoken (including myself) aren't pleased with the current state of PvP, yet GC is trying to keep his ground with the same answer he has given us for the past couple of months.
    I do understand why you're bothered at the moment, but just remember the end-expansion seasons of the last 3 expansions. All 3 were ret heaven. I think this one will be too.. So just have patience, be holy until then .. or something... reroll.. That's what warlocks do <.<
    What I personally feel that rets lack is a gap closer and a slow. I know you have Seal of Justice (?), but my current 2s partner doesn't seem too keen on using that over Truth.
    Warlock Ret, not a winning combo, but we're having fun.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    I do understand why you're bothered at the moment, but just remember the end-expansion seasons of the last 3 expansions. All 3 were ret heaven. I think this one will be too.. So just have patience, be holy until then .. or something... reroll.. That's what warlocks do <.<
    What I personally feel that rets lack is a gap closer and a slow. I know you have Seal of Justice (?), but my current 2s partner doesn't seem too keen on using that over Truth.
    Warlock Ret, not a winning combo, but we're having fun.
    He really should be. It's better for burst anyway. As a double dps team who cares about your sustained damage, you won't win a sustained fight. And without that he has no other form of slow to stick to his target.

    Granted, I think Burden of Guilt should be baseline for Ret. It really doesn't compare to the other two options in the tree, ever. For any of the specs.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restors View Post
    Ye screw GC for not making paladins overpowered. The fact that Guardians of Ancient kings for retris can't be CCed, just have to try kiting it(hits harder than any guardins ingame), the amount of dmg reduction and the new burst cds is not enough.. Selfhealing is the last step to take to buff so paladins can finally dominate pvp brackets.. /end of sarcasm
    Since when do rets dominate ... need more info .
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  9. #49
    Wow Ret dominate , +1 coz ur trolling

    Infracted. Do not call other posters trolls. ~Fhi
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-01-03 at 07:28 AM.

  10. #50
    "We think Ret is almost exactly where it should be. Decent mobility. Tons of utility. Some offhealing capability. Reliable Power. " - GC

    Why is it so hard to find a RBG then...

  11. #51
    and thats me answering him
    Outlandish‏

    @Ghostcrawler @Johnusyx Are you serious? , Ret is nowhere , Ret pvp is weak sorry but whois giving u these information is totaly ignorant
    Outlandish ‏@0utland1sh

    @Ghostcrawler @Johnusyx You want some Real information about the viability of Ret , Wow forums , MMO-champion , Ret is broken

  12. #52
    Bloodsail Admiral Luminoth4's Avatar
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    - Buff Flash of Light and Word of Glory for Ret by 50%. FoL is approximately 30k, 60k with Supplication for now. 45K/90K is not OTT, especially when the 90K required a killing blow.
    - Increase the Damage of Templar's Verdict to make it actually feel like a finishing move. I'm saying maybe a 10/20% buff, and see what it looks like from there.
    - Divine Protection changed to give 40% Magical and Physical Damage Reduction, instead of 20/20 or 40/00.
    - A baseline non targetted AoE move, possibly consecration.

    Those are some fairly reasonable changes that up sustained damage a little and give us some extra defenses. Furthermore we have a chance to get Stealthers out. Those would be changes I would make personally, see how they end up. I personally would like to see less damage in Seal of Truth and more to Judgment and Crusader Strike, or even Templar's Verdict, my highest Judgement Crit in a BG was higher than my highest TV (100k Judgement, name seemed appropriate xD), and maybe the return of Cataclysm's Sacred Shield, loved that move.
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  13. #53
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    Ret burst is on the same level as Frost Mage and Arms Warrior burst pre-nerf.
    No it isn't. You are either seriously overestimating ret burst or seriously underestimating pre-nerf warrior and frost mage burst. But with that said I do agree defense is actually the issue with ret.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-01-03 at 07:00 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    No class "should be" stuck at 1700. That's terrible design. You wanna pvp as this class because you love it? Sorry, you're stuck at 1700. Nice try going for Glad though!
    Terrible design? Of course it is...its blizzard no?

    But here lies the problem:

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    No class "should be" stuck at 1700. That's terrible design. You wanna pvp as this class because you love it? Sorry, you're stuck at 1700. Nice try going for Glad though!
    Ret isn't a class :S, holy is more than capable of getting glad, has been since arena first started. While I agree blizzard is trying to get more specs into arena, it seems at least for the paladin, as long as holy is capable everything is fine. Meanwhile if holy gets too strong, ret is the one that ends up getting more nerfed than holy. Need better diversity between the two specs, something more like feral and resto. Have you seen how different the paladin talent tree is to the druids? Paladins all get the same thing, druids talents change depending on spec...fair?

    If they think ret is where 'it should be' then don't expect any major buffs. In fact, given that paladin CC seems to come up a bit in QQ, I'd expect nerfs. Is ret the culprit? No. Holy just has better access/use of 3 CC's compared than ret. But I won't be surprised when they nerf the CC for holy, it badly affects ret at the same time. Same thing as 5.1. Blinding light too strong for holy? Lets nerf it then. Oh that nerfed ret as well, oh well, they 'should be' fine. Spriest off healing too strong? Lets nerf all hybrid healing....
    Last edited by Palatinus; 2013-01-03 at 02:36 PM.

  15. #55
    Pandaren Monk solvexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    So polymorph, fear, cyclone, entangling roots are not legitimate forms of CC.
    Wow I hope you are kidding.

    Repent is a terrible form of CC for ret.
    You can never get it off inbetween all the constant training on you that's going on.

  16. #56
    I wish that they'd stop balancing our brittle defenses around bubble. This 8 year old albatross around our necks has stood still or regressed (for us), while other top tier classes consistently get additional hard counters to it, or better versions of it themselves. Yet, people don't bitch about Dark Bargain (which, IMO, is FAR superior to bubble given it does not nerf damage and is not dispellable (I don't think) and is shorter cooldown, and does not cause forbearance), but every 1500 hero knows that "BUBBLE IZ OP!" All bubble is good for now is a debuff clearing tool, given that it's dispelled in 1-3 sec in competitive play.

    Cata sacred shield made sense for ret; I'd like to give up bubble for old sacred shield again. It's a passive, non-damage-nerfing ability that works synergistically with our self heals (and even promotes smart use of our self heals to maximize our heals per GCD). I'd like to see EITHER a change to DivProt OR an increase to ret self healing via WOG/FoL, but not as much as I'd like sacred shield.

    I also vote to remove SH from the tree, as all it does is serve to open a can of worms when abused and nerf us around a stupid/gimmick ability anyhow. I'd vote to see something like Protector of the Innocent put in there in it's place, or something that works like Binding Heal which would foster the intelligent use of Hand of Sac on teammates, and efficient partner healing, which is what the ret archetype/playstyle should be about anyway.

    Finally, I agree that we cannot have the above without giving up something. I have already offered up bubble for those trades, but I'd be open to losing some burst CD's in favor of a return to some actual defenses. Maybe someone has an idea on what to give up (without adversely affecting PVE), but I'm out of ideas at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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  17. #57
    Our main PvP problem isn't sustained damage, really; like I mentioned a while ago, I think it actually has way more to do with our inability to put out pressure more often than once every 2-3 minutes. Currently, a strong PvP dps spec needs to be able to provide some pressure at least every 45 seconds or so.

    Here is an idea:

    Inquisition

    Passive Effect
    Increases increases Holy damage done by 30% and critical strike chance by 10%.

    Active Effect
    The target stands alone for trial and is unable to interact with its allies (basically can't target or be targeted by allies).
    3 sec duaration
    30 sec cooldown
    3 Holy Power
    Cannot be used during Avenging Wrath
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-01-03 at 05:42 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Our main PvP problem isn't sustained damage, really; like I mentioned a while ago, I think it actually has way more to do with our inability to put out pressure more often than once every 2-3 minutes. Currently, a strong PvP dps spec needs to be able to provide some pressure at least every 45 seconds or so.

    Here is an idea:

    Inquisition

    Passive Effect
    Increases increases Holy damage done by 30% and critical strike chance by 10%.

    Active Effect
    The target stands alone for trial and is unable to interact with it's allies (basically can't target or be targeted by allies).
    3 sec duaration
    30 sec cooldown
    3 Holy Power
    Cannot be used during Avenging Wrath
    It'd need to be a talent and/or remove the crit component in order for that to fly anywhere, but as I understand it, you're suggesting a "holy smoke bomb"? My only concerns there would be 1) dispels and 2) the HoPo cost means that we could not even TV during the 3sec duration. At best, we could get off 2 globals and 2 auto-attacks (assuming this doesn't reset swing timer). I know it's meant to be used as a team focus/burst tool, but it'd be quite lackluster outside of a team fight and more of a "support" thing than a true "burst" tool.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's a cool, outside the box idea, but maybe something more like this:

    Inquisition:
    Passive Effect
    Increases Holy damage done by 30%
    Active Effect:
    Marks a target for the inquisiton, increasing the damage dealt to that target by 25% for 6 seconds. Requires 3 HoPo, 45sec cooldown. During the cooldown period, Inquisition's passive effect is disabled.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Our main PvP problem isn't sustained damage, really; like I mentioned a while ago, I think it actually has way more to do with our inability to put out pressure more often than once every 2-3 minutes. Currently, a strong PvP dps spec needs to be able to provide some pressure at least every 45 seconds or so.

    Here is an idea:

    Inquisition

    Passive Effect
    Increases increases Holy damage done by 30% and critical strike chance by 10%.

    Active Effect
    The target stands alone for trial and is unable to interact with its allies (basically can't target or be targeted by allies).
    3 sec duaration
    30 sec cooldown
    3 Holy Power
    Cannot be used during Avenging Wrath
    They will never do a passive Inquisition. What would people have to keep track of in PvE to make it fun!?

  20. #60
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    No class "should be" stuck at 1700.
    Like I have said countless times, and recently in a very popular thread that was -I suspect- read by the Devs, Rets see themselves as a CLASS as opposed to a spec of a class.

    So we have here this poster who says that his "class" is stuck at 1700, while everybody knows that Holy Paladins are right at the top when Rogue representation has plummeted and Rogues themselves have almost disappeared from the World Of Warcraft altogether.

    See the article at WoW insider "Are Rogue a dying class"

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/11/ar...a-dying-class/

    This attitude is because Blizzard has spoiled Rets though buffing them constantly following WoW 2.0.1. Even now, while the Paladin class is quite over-represented at all aspects of the game, i.e. Arena, Raids, BGs, Rated BG's and so on, people still complain that ONE OF THEIR SPECS, i.e. Ret, needs more buffs while WHOLE CLASSES such as Rogue are almost dead and dying.

    The World of Warcraft does not revolve around a spec of the Paladin class.
    NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.

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